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IR washing out nighttime images
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| TallDoode |
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Posts: 9
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:57 pm
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Cool. Thanks. I will try to track one down.
Cheers,
dave
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| cctv_down_under |
Founding Member
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Posts: 2264
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Brisbane Australia
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:21 pm
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Basically the best perfomance you can get in low light is B/W, but if you want colour in the day then you need a cam that switches between them...if you are doing this, you are going to want a cam that is full body.
There are two types of "switch between" or Day Night cams, those that have an IR pass filter and those that dont...IR light is present in things such as Monnlight, so any camera that switches and still blocks the IR light range it could have used will not perform as good as one with a true pass filter.
If you go for full body, then you will need to firstly consider the light gathering physical size...IE 1/4 , 1/3rd or 1/2 ...Obviously the larger 1/2 Inch design has more of a surface area for light to gather on the CCD.
Next consider the lense...Firstly you need to know if you are using IR lighting and if so you need an IR correct Lense, then you need to again consider how much light can get to your sensor...the first thing to look at is the F Stop, this a measurement...kinda..but not totally....but will do for this example....like measuring the total size of the hole that light can Pass through and again reach your target on the sensor...next decide if you want aspherical or not...aespherical is a curved (again not a great description) back part of the lense, this casts (again simply explained) light better on your target the CCD...Lastly with the lense you need to consider the T Factor, this is the transmittion qulaity and the lack of abhoric abraision on the glass, in laymans terms it means, perfectly machined high qulaity glass with more elements added = greater light transmittion through the lense...so good qulaity lense with nice glass.
I doubt you would need to go past this point but next you need to consider your IR beams, seperate is best and the more the light can be seen the better the response..picking something your camera supports is a must.
Lastly to avoid blooming and vertical smearing etc, your camera needs to be able to handle low blacks and high whites as well as have an Auto Iris lense...imaginge shining a torch in your eyes and not being able to veen squint.
So the best you can go fr would be an aespherical, low F Stop Japanese Glass lense, attached to a 1/2" Low Light performance camera that has an IR Pass filter and is recieving light from an external higher or lower mounted IR Illuminator flood light.
To get all this I think you would blow your budget so if it is probably unrealistic..so I give you an expensive...mid and cheap solution below...
Expensive...either a SDIII from Panasonic, A Bosch LTC0495 atatched to an IR corrected lense that is aespherical and has a low F stop, using UF100 illuminators from Extreeme CCTV
Middle Bosch LTC0495 and use your existing cams as Illuminators...similar lense.
Cheap Any half decent B/W only camera, using your old cams as illuminators
_________________
" You want that camera to go WHERE?!!!!!!@@##$"
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| cctv_down_under |
Founding Member
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Posts: 2264
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Brisbane Australia
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:24 pm
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Basically the best perfomance you can get in low light is B/W, but if you want colour in the day then you need a cam that switches between them...if you are doing this, you are going to want a cam that is full body.
There are two types of "switch between" or Day Night cams, those that have an IR pass filter and those that dont...IR light is present in things such as Monnlight, so any camera that switches and still blocks the IR light range it could have used will not perform as good as one with a true pass filter.
If you go for full body, then you will need to firstly consider the light gathering physical size...IE 1/4 , 1/3rd or 1/2 ...Obviously the larger 1/2 Inch design has more of a surface area for light to gather on the CCD.
Next consider the lense...Firstly you need to know if you are using IR lighting and if so you need an IR correct Lense, then you need to again consider how much light can get to your sensor...the first thing to look at is the F Stop, this a measurement...kinda..but not totally....but will do for this example....like measuring the total size of the hole that light can Pass through and again reach your target on the sensor...next decide if you want aspherical or not...aespherical is a curved (again not a great description) back part of the lense, this casts (again simply explained) light better on your target the CCD...Lastly with the lense you need to consider the T Factor, this is the transmittion qulaity and the lack of abhoric abraision on the glass, in laymans terms it means, perfectly machined high qulaity glass with more elements added = greater light transmittion through the lense...so good qulaity lense with nice glass.
I doubt you would need to go past this point but next you need to consider your IR beams, seperate is best and the more the light can be seen the better the response..picking something your camera supports is a must.
Lastly to avoid blooming and vertical smearing etc, your camera needs to be able to handle low blacks and high whites as well as have an Auto Iris lense...imaginge shining a torch in your eyes and not being able to veen squint.
So the best you can go fr would be an aespherical, low F Stop Japanese Glass lense, attached to a 1/2" Low Light performance camera that has an IR Pass filter and is recieving light from an external higher or lower mounted IR Illuminator flood light.
To get all this I think you would blow your budget so if it is probably unrealistic..so I give you an expensive...mid and cheap solution below...
Expensive...either a SDIII from Panasonic, A Bosch LTC0495 atatched to an IR corrected lense that is aespherical and has a low F stop, using UF100 illuminators from Extreeme CCTV
Middle Bosch LTC0495 and use your existing cams as Illuminators...similar lense.
Cheap Any half decent B/W only camera, using your old cams as illuminators
_________________
" You want that camera to go WHERE?!!!!!!@@##$"
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| cctv_down_under |
Founding Member
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Posts: 2264
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Brisbane Australia
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:24 pm
Post subject:
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Basically the best perfomance you can get in low light is B/W, but if you want colour in the day then you need a cam that switches between them...if you are doing this, you are going to want a cam that is full body.
There are two types of "switch between" or Day Night cams, those that have an IR pass filter and those that dont...IR light is present in things such as Monnlight, so any camera that switches and still blocks the IR light range it could have used will not perform as good as one with a true pass filter.
If you go for full body, then you will need to firstly consider the light gathering physical size...IE 1/4 , 1/3rd or 1/2 ...Obviously the larger 1/2 Inch design has more of a surface area for light to gather on the CCD.
Next consider the lense...Firstly you need to know if you are using IR lighting and if so you need an IR correct Lense, then you need to again consider how much light can get to your sensor...the first thing to look at is the F Stop, this a measurement...kinda..but not totally....but will do for this example....like measuring the total size of the hole that light can Pass through and again reach your target on the sensor...next decide if you want aspherical or not...aespherical is a curved (again not a great description) back part of the lense, this casts (again simply explained) light better on your target the CCD...Lastly with the lense you need to consider the T Factor, this is the transmittion qulaity and the lack of abhoric abraision on the glass, in laymans terms it means, perfectly machined high qulaity glass with more elements added = greater light transmittion through the lense...so good qulaity lense with nice glass.
I doubt you would need to go past this point but next you need to consider your IR beams, seperate is best and the more the light can be seen the better the response..picking something your camera supports is a must.
Lastly to avoid blooming and vertical smearing etc, your camera needs to be able to handle low blacks and high whites as well as have an Auto Iris lense...imaginge shining a torch in your eyes and not being able to veen squint.
So the best you can go fr would be an aespherical, low F Stop Japanese Glass lense, attached to a 1/2" Low Light performance camera that has an IR Pass filter and is recieving light from an external higher or lower mounted IR Illuminator flood light.
To get all this I think you would blow your budget so if it is probably unrealistic..so I give you an expensive...mid and cheap solution below...
Expensive...either a SDIII from Panasonic, A Bosch LTC0495 atatched to an IR corrected lense that is aespherical and has a low F stop, using UF100 illuminators from Extreeme CCTV
Middle Bosch LTC0495 and use your existing cams as Illuminators...similar lense.
Cheap Any half decent B/W only camera, using your old cams as illuminators
_________________
" You want that camera to go WHERE?!!!!!!@@##$"
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| ak357 |
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Posts: 275
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Location: Canada
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:18 am
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| cctv_down_under wrote: |
There are two types of "switch between" or Day Night cams, those that have an IR pass filter and those that dont...IR light is present in things such as Monnlight, so any camera that switches and still blocks the IR light range it could have used will not perform as good as one with a true pass filter.
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Are u talking about "pass" or "cut filter ?
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| cctv_down_under |
Founding Member
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Posts: 2264
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Brisbane Australia
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:55 am
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i meant the same thing...typo
_________________
" You want that camera to go WHERE?!!!!!!@@##$"
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| cctv_down_under |
Founding Member
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Posts: 2264
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Brisbane Australia
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:55 am
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i meant the same thing...typo
_________________
" You want that camera to go WHERE?!!!!!!@@##$"
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| metafizx |
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Posts: 157
Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Location: Kailua, Hawaii
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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:13 pm
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| metafizx wrote: |
| CollinR wrote: |
Don't ever use a camera with IR actually on it, bottom line. If you want/need IR add an illuminator and install it at least a couple of degrees off. What you are seeing is the IR bouncing straight back into the camera. All the other stuff discusses is fine and dandy and makes a valid point and difference however as long as the incedent IR beam and the cameras FOV are in parallel you will be capturing ghosts.
The other point that has been mentioned is cost, this has little to nothing to do with it. You can get sub $100 cameras that do not have this problem however they are all BW and do not have IR on them. So go get a quality BW bullet and IR corrected lens and use that Q-See as an IR illuminator.
1/4" CCD and Color scream piss poor low light performance regaurdless of what the marketing on the box says. |
I am learning...albeit painfully.
I have used the canned weatherproof cameras with IR builtin, because they are attractive to customers to contain cost, size and ease of installation. But they definitely have their problems.
It's very hard to convince customers that the cctv that you buy as a "package" are just junk. Q-SEE and others. But getting them something that is much better quality is expensive. So most customers are looking at the bottom line $, and have a hard time digesting the technical reasons. |
another comment about the canned weatherproof cameras with builtin IR.
I recently realized that the cause of severe haze at night was due to dried residue from rain splashes, causing bounceback of IR into the camera.
use of separate IR illuminator and camera w/o IR would not have this problem. Or a IR camera that is designed to reduce IR reflections from the glass plate.
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| CollinR |
Moderator
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Posts: 1688
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Location: Oklahoma, US
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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:52 pm
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Don't forget insects and spiders, both seem to like IR and both will botch your picture and nothing much you can do about it.
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| TallDoode |
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Posts: 9
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:06 am
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I have noticed that about the insects. About twice a week I have to clean the lenses.
I have done a search for "Security Monster" on the message bases to try and contact that person about getting new cams but there were no hits on this. While I dont mind using one of the click thru ads, I would prefer to use someone who has been used and been recommended vs. just someone who is advertising on the site.
I thought I knew what I needed but cctv_down_under got me confused again! <grin>. I thought I wanted to get away from IR and just into a very good low lux camera. Guess what I need to do is choose a vendor, call them, discuss what this discussion has been about and have them recommend a system for me.
Thanks again everyone for your help. FYI - the local news here in Vegas picked up on my security video of the guys trying to break into my car and ran the story on the 11:00 news last night including the video. Hopefully there wont be any repercussions from vengeful car break-in people.
Cheers,
dave
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