ColdFeet

I'm responsible for the design and implementation for what seems to be an unusual need. At least I haven’t come across anything that appears to be I am looking for. Nor have I found a local experienced vendor to consult with. I have scanned this site (which has been a great help), but haven’t found what I am looking for. Perhaps I’m still too ignorant to realize the answer is there. Regardless, any insight/advice or even criticism would be most welcome. What do I need? I require semi-mobile 360 degree 24/7 outdoor day/night color recording, with resolution sufficient for unique facial identification out to ~20 feet, and general object recognition out to ~100 feet. My thinking is to have 3-4 cameras pointed in a circle. The camera(s), will be mounted with a downward tilt depending on how high I get them. The cameras will then be capped under a dome to help protect against the elements. For now, the height will be about 10 feet, though I am trying to see how I can get a bit higher so that close in objects (vehicles) do not excessively block those a bit further out. Each recording station is semi-mobile as it will be relocated to a new area every few days, the higher it is the more difficult tear down/transport/ re-assembly gets. This also means attempting to tune the cameras for each site would be difficult. I am building two initial systems, with perhaps an additional eight depending on the results. My budget for the cameras (including any cases), is about $1,200 per station. The good news is that I’ll have local AC power at each site and that video will be stored locally (environmentally protected PC). That’s about it for good news. I’ve purchased two cameras so far, in an attempt to validate what I thought I had learned. The first camera was a CVC-7706DNV. It apparently meets the weather requirements (did I mention that I am in Alaska?), but video quality is very disappointing. Specifically, bright areas are severely washed out with no detail. Based on the documentation (one page – frankly, I think they do themselves a disservice by not providing more operational details) I tried different combinations of auto backlight and other choices, with either worse or no change in image quality. Perhaps there are other adjustments I should be making. The second camera is a HT-7815DNV. I just got this one in so haven’t had a chance to determine what quality it will give. I suspect based on the forum comments that better quality could be obtained with standard cameras placed in an outdoor environmental enclosure – but going that route seems cost prohibitive. Is this possible with a $1,200 camera budget, or am I wasting my time? Any other ideas? Thanks in advance for any advice. Regards, Scott

Cooperman: Thanks for the input. As someone else put it, 'It's all relative' - so I am ordering a WV-CP484 with a TG2Z1816FCS lens. At least I will see what would be given up in quality. I will post my impressions on how it compares. It appears the most cost effective approach for multiple moderate quality cameras would be all weather bullet style. I see Speco's are offering a 5 year warranty, though it is somewhat unclear what it covers or how effective it is. If I didn't search further, I will be using the HT-7815DNV as it has mechanical IR filter and the split glass does seem to prevent the IR halo effect. I'm impressed with the low light color and overall image quality seems okay both day and night. On the con side, details do tend to wash out in only moderate (to me) bright areas. Perhaps more professional adjustments would be able to correct that. Anyway, why I started this was to ask for other candidates to consider. Anyone??? Even with budget issue, etc., the decision has been made to proceed on building two units to be fielded. That's the good news, the bad news is that means now I have to commit to a camera choice And lastly, as we're proceeding to the next step, I'd like to establish some sort of relationship with a dealer or distributor that handles the Alaska area. Preference, budget willing to forum members. Any suggestions on how to go about finding reputable ones? As always, thank you for the reasoned advise. Regards, Scott

I'm lost in a maze of twisty little passages that all look alike. Note: All pricing was found at multiple retail online sources and is only meant to illustrate my question. I can't seem to decide on the next step and time is wasting. In short, is it better to have more moderate quality cameras, each covering a smaller area - or, fewer better quality cameras with each covering more area. Not confused enough? Consider an example. Take six Speco HT-7815DNV set in a circle covering a 20 ft radius circle. Compare that to having four Panasonic WV-CP484 covering the same circle. Each set of cameras would cost ~$2400 at common off the net pricing. The Panasonic is about the same price as the Speco, but each Panasonic would also require a heated enclosure and an external IR source. That adds about $200 to each camera, for a total of $600 ea, or four for $2400. With four cameras I need a ~2.?mm 90 degree lens on the Panasonic to cover 31' horizontally (90 degrees of a 20' radius circle). At a claimed horizontal resolution of 540 (or 520) would give ~1.4 pixels/inch at 20 feet. Whereas with six Speco cameras, each covering a 60 degree view would mean a ~4.?mm lens with a 21' horizontal view. Claimed image resolution is also lower at 480, giving about 1.9 pixels/inch at 20 feet. That's about a third higher, but what does that mean - in quality? If I have great contrast and image quality, but fair resolution - how does that compare to better resolution, but poorer contrast? I've talked myself in and out of both choices several times already. A bullet camera is more straightforward mechanically, but as noted on the forum many times, has a checkered past. A standalone like the Panasonic has stellar credentials, but adding enclosures with heaters and IR lights adds to complexity and failure points; without a slam dunk case of being a superior image solution. Of course what I would like is six Panasonic's, that would be sweet - but there is no way the budget will support that. I'm still working on how to get to $2400. Thus my question. Some guidance or even a gentle push in one direction or the other would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Scott

Cooperman: Thanks for the comments. I am pretty sure that I'm making progress as I think I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Now, if someone could just do something about that annoying whistle.... SteveSurf & Rory: I'm leaning towards the Panasonic WV-CP484 for my next sample. Does someone want to suggest a lens? Remember these are mobile, outdoor, with no control over lighting, and need day/night with wide angle coverage. Other than that, I'm easy A suggestion or two for appropriate outdoor enclosures (with heater) wouldn't be ignored either. For now, I'm somewhat stuck at 4 cameras, so the recognition spec is sliding big time. I am trying to see how I could get two more in, giving six total and a solid step closer towards the original spec. I am not giving it good odds as there are several issues, starting with the budget. CCTVmofo: Thanks for the tip on the Sony - I'll check it out also. Scott

Zark I think you are in luck. As I understand it, your only issue is forcing B/W mode earlier than the camera normally will. You'll only need a power supply if you want to force the cameras to color when they would normally be B/W. Per his comments, connecting pin 3 of the 1st camera to pin 1 of the next camera and so on, should give you a chain that will switch to monochrome at your command. As Cooperman suggested, forcing pin 1 of the 1st camera via a manual switch would be a good start. Then if everything works, add an adjustable light sensor with a relay (low voltage dry contact type) to control connecting pin 1 and pin 2 of the 1st camera. Good luck.

Thanks for the info on the Pelco mounts. I was just put off by the mounting holes on the Speco cameras, they don't match to anything which just seemed odd to me. I figured that for people that wanted to mount to a enclosed box, that setting up the screw holes to match those of a round junction box would have been an obvious thing to do. I was wrong. In explanation, the 'pole' is a standard 2 1/2" chainlink fence pipe on the top of a steep hill. Total height is ~10+ over an area with wide variety of lighting and that faces over a road with decent traffic. I thought it would be a good spot to have an apples apples comparison of candidate camera performance, rather than slogging (?) through the marketing specmanship. That I asked about the Speco's, is that I happen to have those on hand. I am trying to get a bit smarter on possible cameras before purchasing more candidates. Rory, I'm still researching (I got distracted onto something else for a few days) those that you suggested - thanks again. Scott

Lousy subject line, but it made you look! Is there a trick to mounting speco bullet cameras; specifically to a pole or a sealed enclosure that could be mounted to a pole like a round outdoor electrical box? At least on the two Speco's I currently have, the back plate holes don't match to a round electrical junction box. I have a tall pole that I'd like to mount the cameras to for comparison testing, but I can't seem to figure out a 'proper' way of mounting them. Thanks for any advice, Scott

Zark: I would read it as pin #1 indicating the current color/bw state of camera relative to pin #2. Further assumption would be that using a meter a ~5 volt signal would indicate color mode, much less would be for BW. To switch the camera to BW mode, it seems to indicate connecting #2 and #3 should do the trick. You could put a meter on #1 and #2, during daylight, then cover the camera and check the readings. Once pin #1 is verified as to operation, then you could try connecting #2 and #3 together while watching what happens to #1 with a meter (and likewise the picture of course). Be assured this is all speculation based on your posting. In other words, you are responsible if something starts smoking Scott

Cooperman: You are totally correct. I am painfully coming up to speed on lens. I wish I would have started with them and worked backward.... Whoops, nevermind. I am obviously working backwards It is not clear if the 20 ft facial recognition is specmanship, or a hard requirement. If hard, then the budget will have to move - which I doubt can, at least that much. Mechanically and technically, going with much more than 4 cameras would be very difficult. Even ignoring budget issues, using 4 of something like the IQ501 and a 2.6 mm lens seems iffy. Then my headaches with local storage also jump significantly. I will just have to pull together the best compromise of features to see what priorities come out. Perhaps this project is just before its time. On a more positive note, I've been using the HT-7815dnv and find it is much more in keeping with my expectations. I don't have any real experience to compare to, but it certainly seems far better than the CVC-7706DNV. And last, a question. Is there a trick to mounting these to a pole, or a sealed enclosure (like a outdoor electrical box)? At least on these Speco's, the back plate holes don't match to a round electrical junction box. I have a tall pole that I'd like to mount the cameras to for comparison testing, but I can't seem to figure out a 'proper' way of mounting them. This forum has been great, and I really appreciate the information and the help.

Rory: Thanks for the detailed reply. This really gives me something to work on. To answer a couple of your comments: I am a business, WhisperSmart LLC. But quite honestly (and painfully obvious), this is my first experience with cctv. What distributors would you suggest contacting? I'll check into the cameras you suggested. Thanks. As for PTZ, not necessary, at least for this application as each camera is fixed so as to have a 360 degree combined view. No realtime operator involvement. Each station will be placed at a sight for a few days, video captured, then the station will be relocated to a new sight. The video from the previous sight will then be reviewed. The nighttime requirement seems a bit optimistic to me, but I'm only in charge of implementation As these are not fixed installations, I am anticipating some serious contrast issues. I hope something like the Panasonic will be more robust in handling difficult lighting. Is dynamic range the right parametere to be looking for? Good point on separate infrared lighting. Although I have been saying perhaps 3 cameras/station, it also is becoming clearer that to even come close to the recognition spec's, at least four cameras per station are required. I tried reviewing the Ipix site and their product offerings. It's difficult to get a good handle on their dim/no light performance. If their resolution and nightime specs are good, they seem like a really good fit. I'll try contacting them to get some resolution... (okay, that was lame, but it's late). Thanks again for the help. Scott

Rory: I wasn't clear. The $1200 is just for the cameras and any required housing. There is a separate budget for the other items, including video storage. The items are being costed now, and if they come in cheaper than estimated, that money could be shifted over to the cameras. But when have costs ever come in cheaper than estimated?? Good point on my costs. I am not a dealer. The only thing I have to offer is volume, and certainly not much of that. Only six to eight cameras for the first two stations. And if good data is captured, maybe up to a dozen or so stations (3-4 cameras each) total. If reasonable video quality can not be obtained in that budget range, then the project probably will not proceed. Thanks, Scott