akelley

Buellwinkle, what other cams does the ACTi NVR software work with?

Get a wireless bridge or "gaming adapter". I've used this one from Buffalo Technology, temporarily, while I was waiting for a network drop and it worked fine. Ran for about a month, 24/7 without a single problem and the camera was able to deliver a D1 stream at 30 fps consistently (I was running on a 802.11n network). This wireless bridge also provides 4 network ports, so you could run multiple IP cams from it if needed. If your camera is POE then you'll need to get a 802.3af injector as I am not aware of any wireless bridge that offers POE. http://www.amazon.com/Buffalo-Technology-AirStation-Wireless-Ethernet/dp/B001QVN2NE/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1335528961&sr=1-2

KOB, what frame rate is the original video captured at? It looks like it's about 1 frame per 2 seconds. Why so low? Or was the video somehow altered when youtube processed it? Otherwise, the lightgrabber technology is impressive - but not if you can only capture 1 frame every 2 seconds.

Interesting ideas, but I don't think that it's a heat related issue. I see the vertical line regardless of the temperature. This is also true with regard to the light source in the lower left corner of the screen - whether it is on or not, the vertical lines are still present. Depending on the level of ambient light, the vertical line is more prevalent. I think Axis is considering a batch of bad sensors at this point. I'll post any updates.

Actually you do have special optics for video cameras over still cameras. If you know anything about cameras you'll know (all things being equal) "it's in the glass". The sensor and the optics work together. If you have two cameras using the same sensor (CMOS or CCD), one may have superior optics, and that camera will produce a better image. And yes, you cannot take the same sensor in a P&S and plop it into a video camera and expect the same results. Also, the optics do vary significantly between still and video, particularly in surveillance depending on the application (facial recognition, IR, etc.) And post processing is also completely different between video and still image cameras. Of course, what you do get when you take a sensor and optics that was designed for a P&S and put it into an IP camera is the sub $100 IP cameras you see on eBay and Amazon. These cameras are for the "home" use and wouldn't stand up to the requirements and environmental conditions of the surveillance market.

Why do we keep answering this stupid question? Really. It's a stupid question being asked by, I'm sorry to say, stupid people. There is no comparison between a consumer camera and a surveillance camera. They are two totally different devices for completely different uses. Why even try to compare them? If you think surveillance cameras are over priced, then don't buy them! Simple as that. Use a webcam set up to your laptop. Lots of people do that and lots of people are happy. And the OP's question is not even accurate... there are plenty of sub $100 IP cameras you can purchase today. Is that considered expensive to people? Does it shoot 10MP images? Of course not. But your $300 point and shoot doesn't have a built web server and can stream video over the internet. It comes down to what you need, and what features you're willing to compromise. IP camera means an IP stack with webserver capabilities. I know of no consumer P&S that offers this at ANY price. So, I think the OP needs to admit that this is a stupid question because there's no fact in the original statement to begin with (what consumer P&S camera are you comparing to the sub $100 Foscam IP camera to determine that IP cameras are so expensive?). Maybe what you're really asking is why are IP cameras so low in MP (i.e., image quality) where my P&S for $100 has many MP? Well, the answer to that is the DSP in the IP camera that has to compress each MP image (up to 30 per second), whereby your $100 P&S has to compress only 1 image - and some need considerable time to recyle before taking another picture. Take a Canon DSLR that can shoot perhaps, at most, 10 FPS in burst mode, which can only do this for about 2 seconds. And that DSLR isn't going to be $100. Then keep in mind, your $100 IP camera has to take this video feed, compress the image 30 times every second, then send it over the IP network - sometimes, to multiple clients. So this notion that a consumer P&S is the same technology as an IP camera is factually incorrect and therefore, shouldn't even be compared in terms of price. Personally, I think it's amazing that you can find sub $100 IP cameras; perhaps the question then should be, how come consumer P&S cameras can't do what IP cameras can? Meaning, why can't that Canon digital Elph not be a webserver? Why can't it stream multiple video feeds across the Internet in realtime? Why can't it take video in pitch black with built in IR? Why can't I set the camera on a table and have it take a picture when someone walks by, send me an email alert, trigger an external alarm, and store the video of the person walking by onto a NAS device? Yeah, IP cameras are way overpriced for what they do. Despite that no one can actually compare functionality to anything in the consumer P&S market to baseline what "expensive" means, we continue to see this stupid question being asked.

For under $69 the Loftek CXS 3200 is PTZ with night vision (built in IR LEDs). Audio is okay, but not great. It is also wireless. Decent lens which can interchanged with cheap lenses, so you can go wider or closer depending on your needs. Best for audio and image quality is Panasonic BL-C2xx (C210a or C230a depending if you want wireless or not). This is also a PTZ with a good medium-wide angle view lens, but non-interchangeable lens. Neither models have night vision. The BL-C210 goes for $119 and the BL-C230 goes for $215. I have used both for the same purposes and have not been disappointed. The image quality between the Loftek and Panasonic is big, but not to say that the Loftek is bad - Panasonic just has good imagers and optics. But then, you are paying a bit more. Both models are accessible by the many smart phone and tablet apps out there. Loftek here http://www.amazon.com/Loftek-Newest-Wireless-wired-Installation-black/dp/B005CFSZE6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334852178&sr=8-1 Panasonic here http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=bl-c210 Edit: Over looked your key requirement of h.264 support and specifically not MJPEG. So that rules out the Loftek. But for $20 over your new $100 budget, go for the BL-C210a.

Thanks for the reply, Pavel. Good information to know.

I find this a strange discussion. I mean, a camera is simply a tool. Pick the right tool for the job. Thankfully, IP cameras come in many, many different types to choose from . If there was such a thing as one camera that was supposed to be good for every situation, I suppose you could compare that camera's price to what? What's the baseline? Surely, it's not the Flip! I also don't agree that image is everything when it comes to picking the right camera for your project's particular needs. I've seen many clients choose lesser image quality over a particular feature that was more important. As client requirements increase and become more complex, you'll see more cameras meeting these challenges; some better than others. Those will be higher priced as that's what the market needs, and what clients are willing to pay. The Flip was a good handheld camcorder, but certainly didn't revolutionize that market. In fact, as we all know, the Flip went kaput. I don't know why people are trying to compare the Flip (a consumer product) to a surveillance camera (a business product). Two totally different markets.

Don't forget that software is a big cost of the end product. I'm talking about firmware and end user software as well. I owned three flip camcorders which all broke within a year and had several issues with connecting to both PCs and Macs. I would argue that Flip (before they were bought by Cisco) did a decent job with the hardware integration, but not such a good job with the software (firmware and likewise). It's true that electronic parts are commodities, but you separate the men from the boys in your software engineering department. Apple is a perfect example of this - 90% of the iPhone/iPod/iPad is off the shelf components, yet no one else (even Microsoft) having access to the same components, can produce a product that works as well, at any price point. A Flip camcorder only shoots video in limited lighting situations (they were crap in less than well lit scenes), had no built in features like motion detection, i/o interfacing for alarms/events, and has been correctly stated, doesn't need to stream the video anywhere (most IP cameras can stream multiple streams simultaneously to multiple clients using multiple codecs). Hardware is certainly a cost factor, but that's a commodity which price is affected merely by volume. Software costs a bunch more in research and development (regardless of how many units you can sell). And finally, the last part of the equation is the company itself and its ability to support the customer base. Part of the reason for Cisco to end the Flip was because support costs were so high, relative to the income generated by a $150 camera. There simply wasn't enough profit margin to support the continued research and development and consumer support that was required in the consumer space. Keep in mind, these $1000 IP cameras you see are not being bought by someone in Best Buy - they're being installed by professionals and supported by professionals, backed up by a company committed to the product.

Mike, What is your impression of Companion thus far (now that you appear to have gotten the kink worked out)? I have an install which includes 2 x P3367-VE, 2 x M5014s, and 1 x 212PTZ. I'm thinking that companion is so new I might want to wait until the bugs are fleshed out of version 1 before considering it for a client installation, and either go with Camera Station or third party VMS. Do you know if any other VMS products can access the recorded clips on Axis cameras, e.g. Milestone? Thanks

If he's running it on an "off the shelf" server (Dell, etc.) it's possible it came with SAS drives already installed. Look at it this way, it's definitely scaleable. Well, he states 80 megapixels... depending on frame rate that can range from 67Mbps - 402Mbps (@ 5-30fps) using H.264. If using MJPEG, that will saturate a 1Gig network even at 5 fps. These are just rough estimates as I have no idea the actual frame rates of the individual cameras (are these 8 10MP cameras? 40 2MP cameras, etc?)

Simon, I completely agree with everything you wrote above, especially that the HDD is just one part of the whole NAS/RAID solution. And I will say, after watching your videos and reading MxInstaller, to me your message is clear - I think you do a great job explaining the whole storage situation and its importance in putting just as much analysis into the proper architecture as you would with camera placement, lenses, MP, etc. for your client's particular needs. Buellewinkle, yes, SSDs definitely have a life expectancy based on write cycles. The cost/performance ratio for advocating SSDs as mass storage is a high bar. Unless your particular application requires really large amounts of data with high throughput, the cost of SSDs as mass storage is hard to justify. I have one client (not for surveillance, US government research - can't say which) that uses SSDs in their SAN - but they generate TBs of data per second which needs to be captured and stored (think high energy physics experiments). The SSDs in those arrays are swapped out on a regular basis before they have a chance to fail. Of course, they have a multi-million $$ budget.

I agree with buellwinkle for the most part. I do believe that there are specific specs that your application may require found in enterprise class drives that you can't get in consumer versions, but for probably 90% of the installs that your typical security system will require, consumer drives in a RAID array will be sufficient. Enterprise drives can be 3 or 4 times the cost of an equivalent consumer version, so for that cost, you can easily have on hand several spares to swap out of an array without data loss or downtime. Where you'll see a drive's life cut short is in the number of, and sustained period of, read/write operations. That's where enterprise drives are designed to be more robust than consumer drives - also similar to consumer AV drives that are designed for DVR devices (i.e, TiVo) that are continuously recording (TiVo always records a realtime buffer, so the hard drive never stops writing to the hard drive). So, if you have a single camera that only records on motion, it's likely you don't need a HD that can maintain sustained read/write cycles 24/7, year after year. And one other thing to consider is that heat will reduce any hard drive's life expectancy. In a lot of the cheaper NAS units, they're not engineered to provide proper air flow, which runs the drives hot. So as always, it's a cost/benefit analysis based on the project's specific needs and budget, over using enterprise class drives over much less expensive consumer drives.

do avigilon cameras require the avigilon s/w? or are they fairly plug and play with other software based nvr systems? couldn't find much regarding this on their website... particularly the jpeg2000 streaming JPEG2000 only works with Avigilon VMS What's the cost of the Avigilon VMS? And Avigilon cameras can't dual stream another codec?

Thanks for the links and info. Good stuff. I wonder what price point the S14 will start at. Have any S14 product prototypes been released to partners for early testing? I realize you wouldn't be able to talk about it, but if so, it might mean that a general product release could actually happen in 2012.

Thanks for the info, lemike41. Where did you get the quote regarding the new S14 platform? Sorry, but I'm not familiar with the name Ekerot? Is this someone within Mobotix from which you quoted? But yes, that is good news about the S14 project. While I don't require "secret" or "covert" surveillance, the lower profile will certainly be useful in many situations for my projects.

Any update on the release of the M14? We're now into 2012 and as far as I know there hasn't been any new info on the M14 release, if there is going to be one. Any rumors of any new models coming out, by chance? I would love to see a more low profile model from Mobotix; while the cameras are robust and great for outdoor use, they're just too large for indoor use, especially when you need to be somewhat inconspicuous in their placement.

NBRK, Thanks for posting the HD clip - it looks good. Glad to know your cameras can do the full 15 @ resolution, and the bandwidth is good as well.

Please do post your findings... I just started looking at these cameras and would be interested in some real world results.

NotoriousBRK, in your YouTube videos, what resolution are the cameras being recorded in, and what is the actual frame rate? One of the things I noticed when I tested a Mobotix Q24 was that I couldn't get anywhere near the advertised (or specified) frame rates/resolution. I'm finding that a lot of these MP cameras claim up to 30 fps at stated resolution is really under "ideal" or "theoretical" conditions. So looking at the other videos you posted of your videoiq cameras, in the example of the car coming down the driveway in the snow, the video appears to be running at about 10 - 12 fps (can't tell resolution), and in one spot, actually freezes for about 2 seconds and then resumes (about 2 seconds later in the timeline). Was wondering if this is typical for your cameras or if this was something to do with the way YouTube displays the video or maybe the software you used to capture your desktop?

On a side note, but somewhat related subject, I was recently asked to provide a job proposal to an "adult" website for a multicam system (one of those voyeur houses that have cameras all over that customers can 'peep' on the 'residents'). Could have been lucrative, but I don't think my wife would have approved of me spending so much time with such endeavors. But it would have been an interesting technical challenge as many of these sites have huge upstream bandwidth requirements, and the number and variety of cameras (ptz, hidden, b/w ir, etc.) was interesting. But alas, I have to run a family friendly business

These drives are rated for 24/7 operation and should be okay. Enterprise class drives are overkill unless you're dealing with mission critical data/performance and have a larger budget for the storage specs. The standard "Green" drives from the major manufacturers are not suitable for 24/7 operation and I would not rely on them. I use them in a home media server (4X2TB RAID5) which gets fairly good use, but in the past two years I've replaced one drive based on SMART notification of a pending failure. RAID5 allows me to easily swap out the defective drive without losing any data (or even shutting down the array).

Hybrid is the best way to go and the ELS boxes are very good. http://www.exacq.com/products/exacqvisionELS.html Are the hard drives in the ELS boxes user upgradeable? Can you simply swap out, say a 250GB, with your own 2TB? Can these also read/write standard NAS shares (non iSCSI)?

Anyone have any experience with Bosch IP security cams? They look pretty decent feature wise (direct recording to iSCSI devices, embedded video analytics, etc.). I like their mini domes and their compact PTZ (10X optical). Neither of these are MP though (4CIF). Day/Night Dome http://www.boschsecurity.us/en-us/ProductInformation/Cameras/ndn498 Compact PTZ Dome http://www.boschsecurity.us/en-us/ProductInformation/Cameras/VEZ2xxip/ Price wise they are at the higher end, but some clients don't mind paying for a higher quality build and manufacturer support. Anyone have any experience working Bosch?