akelley

shropna, thank you for that response - it was useful. How much of that functionality you mention is lost by not going with BVMS? Are you locked into BVMS? What if I were to pair them with Milestone or Exacq? I'm assuming even if the IVA metadata recorded by a non-BVMS NVR, it's not going to know what to do with that data or use it. None of my current installs require IVA so that's not a concern at this time, but what other functionality is lost or degraded by not going with BVMS?

So, what is you question about Bosch? That's the perception I gather from their website and other reviews I've read online - but what's the reality? How easy are they to install? How easy are they to maintain? What is the support model (does Bosch handle support themselves or only through a network of partners/installers)? The value of these boards are hearing people's actual experience with these products, and not just some industry report/review, which is most likely sponsored by the manufacturers themselves. I also ask because I have not seen a single mention of these cameras in these boards. If you have anything useful to add to the discussion, please do.

Not sure what is considered low latency for what you want (are you talking MP or higher?), but Bosch Security AutoDome II IP Camera (PTZ, 10X optical) claims an overall latency of 240ms. Not sure if that's too high for your specific needs. Regarding your infrastructure question (twisted pair or fiber), that depends on your bandwidth requirements. Twisted pair Ethernet can go up to 1Gbit/second (actual use will max out around 950 Mbit). Fiber can go up to 40GB, and in extreme cases (and lots of money) 100GB+ (Bell Labs in Villarceaux, France, is multiplexing 155 channels, each carrying 100 Gbit/s over a 7000 km fiber) source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber-optic_communication. Bosch Auto Dome II IP PTZ camera http://stna.resource.bosch.com/documents/AutoDomeEasyIII_DataSheet_enUS_T6976079627.pdf

What specifically are you asking? Sorry, but I don't understand what "4 channel" means to a NAS (I assume you mean a NAS recording four IP streams). And what specific functionality is required, other than bandwidth and connection options (SMB, SAMBA, FTP, etc.)? Specifically, you will need to clarify the bandwidth requirements of the four cameras (are they MP, multiple MP?) - this will get your combined bandwidth. You will then want a NAS solution that supports this (read/write spec). My experience is that the NAS solutions you mention will be more than sufficient to handle 4 IP cameras (MP+). But keep in mind the NAS is just then end point of the equation - you need to take into consideration the server (hardware/software) of the NVR, the available network bandwidth (10/100/1000 Mbit?). In other words, you could spec out a great NAS solution, but have an underpowered NVR that can't pump out the required data fast enough for the NVR (which you may perceive as the NVR not recording all frames, or whatever). Single drive NAS solutions will most likely max out at the 4 MP (depending on codec used - MJPEG/H.264, etc.) camera range, at which point you'll need a multidisk (RAID) solution for both performance and redundancy. I've always just seen a NAS as a remote drive/directory which a camera can store it's video onto, but perhaps I'm completely clueless as to how their use with IP cameras is different than say software NVR that stores it's recorded output to a NAS. I wasn't aware of any protocols specific to NAS and IP cameras, but I'm certainly open to be educated!

Is there a formula for determining the optical zoom equivalent of an MP image? For example, for a 3MP camera, its equivalent optical zoom is X (assuming the same lens on each camera) before the digital zoom degrades significantly? Or can you really not compare the two?

That's what I was thinking, but was hoping someone had a magical formula Hm. This is the simple calculations.... Just compare pixels quantity But this is not true Optical resolution for megapixel cameras is more difficult issue, then the pixels quantity

I've posted before that consumer grade Hard Drives are not intended for 24/7 write operations, which is true. That said, can you use them? Of course. It just depends on what your appetite for dealing with a HD failure is, if it should happen. You don't have to go the Enterprise route to get more robust drives; look for consumer models that are designed for PVRs (they may AV in the product name), as these are designed to run 24/7 (for example, Tivos are constantly recording a 30 minute "rolling" buffer all the time - two, if you have dual tuners). If you read some of the forums or feedback on the latest crop of larger (2TB) drives, you'll find quality is hit or miss even with the big names (Seagate, Western Digital, etc.). I just purchased 4 Seagate 2TB drives for a NAS and after running diagnostic tools, found 1 to have problems. This has never happened to me when using enterprise (or server) class drives. So, if you go the consumer route, just test the drives before using them (all the manufacturers have diagnostic tools you can use). Also, keep in mind that heat shortens a HD's life, and running a drive 24/7 will generate more heat (especially in those not designed to run constantly), so make sure your enclosure allows enough air flow around the drives.

Thanks for the info, much appreciated!

Do you mind sharing which cameras you use? I'm looking at a very similar setup and am torn between going the Mobotix route our a centralized approach. As a side note, the other big benefit of storing locally on the camera is very little network bandwidth usage. Installations with 6 cameras (MP+) all streaming to a NAS or central NVR server, you really need to consider network infrastructure as some of these cameras will saturate a 100Mbit network very quickly (just because you may be only recording on event or motion, the camera still needs to stream 24/7 the the NVR), and your typical consumer grade switches and routers will not last long in such an environment.

Milestone (http://www.milestonesys.com) is one of the better commercial software NVRs. They used to be quite expensive but have recently released significantly lower priced versions of their product for the consumer and small business. I believe they even have a free version with limited features which may be just what you need. Check out their website for more info. Also, LuxRiot gets good reviews for a lower priced alternative to the more expensive commercial products like Milestone or exacqVision. And keep in mind that there are many authorized resellers of these products in this form that can give you much better info and provide pricing info as well. Ask around. Search the forum here as there are plenty of recommendations and reviews of both cameras and NVR solutions.

Suggestions on the network is to separate camera traffic from regular traffic if possible. You can do this physically (two separate switches) or virtual (VLAN - a single switch creates the VLAN for the specified physical ports on the switch). This will allow you to better manage your camera traffic and provide scaleability as you need. Also, I wouldn't suggest using wireless for MP cameras - you'll saturate the wireless signal quickly and you run the risk of having someone accessing your camera feeds remotely (from outside your network), if you're not careful on how you setup encryption, etc. Also keep in mind that all cameras being recorded to the NVR will be streaming their signal continuously (even if it's not recording - the software has to analyze the image to detect motion, for example, to know to begin recording), so be sure to get switches that are robust enough to handle this continuous data stream - some of your cheaper consumer brands/models are not designed for this level or service. Commercial quality switches with POE can get costly (you can sometimes save money by using switches without POE, and use POE injectors for your cameras, but then you've introduced another point of failure into the system). You should first consider the software NVR you're going to use to determine the specs for your server. Some require a good deal of horse power (CPU) whiles others do not. It will also depend on the cameras you ultimately choose (h.264 requires more CPU to encode/decode), and obviously the number of cameras you intend to record (and you may want to spec a system that will allow you to add one or two more cameras with little or no modifications to the system). Hard drives are also important to consider in both size and duty rating. One, how much space will you need? This can be calculated by number of cameras x storage requirement (see camera spec) x frequency (days per week, 24/7, frames per second, event only, etc.). Two, spec server rated drives - that is drives that are intended to run 24/7. Most consumer model drives are not rated for this and can have high failure rates when pushed to run 24/7x365. Though I've found that you can save a little money over the server drives by looking for hard drives that are designed for DVRs (like Tivo or your cable DVR box) - these are designed to run 24x7x365. I'm sure there are other tips out there, but hope this helps.

So the camera is about 41 degrees warmer than ambient temperature (5C = 41F)? The operating temperature specified for the M12 is -22F to 140F. I'm wondering if that's a problem in really warm climates like Arizona where it regularly climbs 100F+, which would be just pushing the outer limits of the 140F range if the camera itself adds 40 degrees to the ambient temp, or if the 140F upper range doesn't take into account the internal temp of the camera.

Is anyone currently using/installed a mixed environment of Mobotix cameras and another manufacturer (i.e., Arecont)? What NVR (hardware/software) are you using? Since the Mobotix can record internally or to NAS, are people using the NVR to record the Mobotix cameras as well? Is the free software (MxControlCenter) that Mobotix provides sufficient for controlling other IP cameras? Can it be set up to record other manufacturer cameras to NAS?

In the HTPC world we use a free product (Open Source) called Event Ghost which allows user configurable macros to control just about anything in Windows via IR and wireless remote controls. You can even use it for home automation via the X10 protocol. So conceivably you could trigger alarms, send PTZ commands via serial interface, turn on/off lights/cameras, HVAC control, etc. all from a remote control. Can't guarantee that it will work with all (or any for that matter) NVRs, but it's a free product and worth a look. Check it out here.

What NVR are you using to record all of the cameras? Are you using the NVR to record the Mobotix cameras or just relying on their in-camera recording capabilities (to local storage or NAS)?

Do you have experience running both Arecont and Mobotix on a Milestone system? Does Milestone support all the features of Mobotix cameras such as PTZ? Last check the answer on PTZ is no. From some other posts, I got that since Mobotix cameras have their own built in NVR it was best to just let the cameras do their own recording and use the NVR for the other cameras on the network. I'm asking specifically if this is the case or if there is an NVR on the market that fully supports Mobotix and other IP cameras (Arecont, etc.).

Question about D/N cameras. Both Arecont and Mobotix use separate, lower MP (1.3MP) sensors in their d/n cameras because (if I understand correctly) you don't gain much more quality going above 1.3MP for b/w. Now, Arecont does sell single sensor cameras with IR cut filters to provide you a D/N camera, whereas Mobotix does not (you either have to go the dual sensor models or single, but lower MP, b/w). My question is for Arecont, are you better off going dual sensors (higher cost), or going for say their 3 or 5MP single sensor with IR cut filter to get night vision (lower price)? I know one reason for Mobotix not to offer single sensor D/N with IR cut is their strict adherence to no moving parts in their cameras (cuts down on mechanical failure and their ability to maintain operating in cold weather without the need for external housing and blowers). I've been looking at Arecont as a D/N option but can't decide what is better - a single sensor (3 or 5MP) with IR cut, or dual sensors which would seem to give the best of both worlds. Perhaps I've answered my own question with that last statement, but how much better for the extra cost? Will the night quality of a 5MP color sensor with IR filter removed be that much worse than a dedicated 1.3MP b/w?

These responses are good, but I should clarify my original post that when asking about "mixed environment" I meant between Mobotix and other IP cameras, not analog. With that said, does anyone have experience with a Mobotix and say, Arecont, installation? What NVR is used to record the Arecont cameras, and is the same NVR also used to record the Mobotix as well?

Yeah, that's why I like the Mobotix for their decentralized approach. But in some cases a Mobotix camera is overkill (indoor cameras that don't require the IP66 housing) or not enough (i.e., optical zoom is required) or the profile isn't quite right (other than the Q series, they're not low profile enough for some scenarios). So, if you had to mix them in an install, it sounds like it's best to keep the Mobotix separate from other cameras on their own NVR, and let the Mobotix use their own internal NVR software.

Thanks, Rory! I just PM'd TheWiredGuys. viewtopic.php?f=22&t=20564

Anyone have a used developer kit (M12-devkit - is there an M24 available?)? They're quite expensive through Mobotix... Also, anyone have any used Mobotix cameras they would be willing to sell? I've been wanting to purchase some cameras but really don't want to until I can actually try some out in specific environments and scenarios. I can't seem to find anyone selling used/refurbished ones.

Aside from bandwidth issues, I also would not trust the security of wireless networks for a commercial application. Sure WPA2 is more secure than WEP, but just about anything can be hacked these days (and even if it's not hacked, it just takes a simple router setting glitch or operator mistake to open up your entire network). If you have the option, install a dedicated gigabit network to handle that many IP cameras.

What about their mandatory maintenance contracts? That was part of the cost hurdles I never could overcome...

These seem to be very similar to Mobotix Q24 (but 5MP instead of 3MP). Anyone have any experience with this company and its products? They don't do in camera recording like Mobotix, but the cameras appear interesting to say the least. http://www.grandeye.com/360.html

Interesting information on the OnCam cameras. The report (PDF) that's up on the site mentioned in rfinger's post is definitely pro OnCam, and I would be interested to hear some people who have Mobotix experience address some of the shortcomings that the report points out. Rfinger, are you an OnCam distributor? Also, couldn't find any pricing information on the website. Can you provide any such info?