buellwinkle

When you add the cost of outdoor housings, lenses and such, the Mobotix are not too expensive. The image quality is superb, unlike any other brand of camera I've seen. Also with 3MP resolution, you may be able to use less cameras compared to VGA resolution cameras. If you want cheaper, consider the new M11 series from Axis, very nice cameras, auto-iris varifocal lenses, good night vision, easy to setup, h.264. Of course the downside is you will have to have software running on a PC and outdoor housings. Their top model is the M1114, just did a review on another forum. With 48 cameras, it will be tough to have a PC that can handle this. First you'll have to break this up with an expensive switch into seperate VLANS so you don't flood the network. The wiring will be more complex than a decentralized approach. You'll need a serious raid device to store the videos from 48 cameras. You'll also need serious processors to handle al the decompression, so I would guess a dual socket xeons, 5400 series. When you add the additional costs, it may be less expensive to use Mobotix. Simpler wiring, cheaper smaller switches, smaller less powerful PC, free software, free outdoor housings.

Maybe yes, maybe no, depends how you read it. To me, "software able to take that movies from SD card located in the camera and transfer it to remote ftp" means he's not expecting the camera to do it, but software on a PC was my assumption. So the first step is to find all cameras that can write to an SD card and I provided all the ones I know of. The next step is finding software that will read the SD card and FTP the images to a website. Ironically, Mobotix is not a good choice, because it's going to write to the SD card in it's own format and then you'll have to use mx control center software to export to viewable format and then ftp it, so while Mobotix is a fantastic camera, not sure if it meets this perculiar need. Of course the question that begs to be asked is if most, if not all IP cameras (except Arecont) can FTP directly to a website, why have interim storage on a SD card? Of course not all cameras FTP video, many only FTP jpegs so that's something to consider. For example, Panasonics will FTP video, Axis, at least the 2 I have wil not FTP video, only jpegs.

Just went through this exercise. Besides Mobotix, Cameras with SD slots include Sanyo, Panasonic, Y-cam, Vivotek and Axis. Only select cameras at each company. They all also FTP.

Much better with a good lens. I wonder if this applies to Vivotek. Their images are even softer than Acti, but maybe with a good lens they would also improve dramatically.

Stardot makes it's IP cameras with analogue output. I don't believe the make a PTZ camera per se, but at 5 MP, you may not need to PTZ.

Not familiar with GrandEye and it looks like a good camera, but the key selling point, at least for me on Mobotix is decentralized approach and having the NVR software built into each camera and being able to write to local storage and/or a NAS. Does GrandEye have some similar to this?

HAHAHAHA, good one, 50M. A decent IR Illuminator that can cover a distance of 50M will probably cost you $800+. Also, what can you even make out at 50m with poor optics, fixed 4mm lens and VGA resolution? Think about it, a person at that distance may be 10 pixels tall, with his head being only 2 pixels, no features, just a tiny spec. There's a camera that's ideal for the area you want to cover. It's a Pannasonic bb-hcm581a. It's pretty inexpensive for this sort of camera and can cover the 50m area by setting up patrols and zooming in with it's 21X optical zoom to see what is really there. You can get a outdoor dome enclosure for it for outdoor use. Panasonics do pretty well in low light, but you still may need to light up the area. Before you think this is expensive, consider that camera that can do this from Axis would set you back over $3k.

Don't know why Mobotix hasn't adapted the H.264 format, but their propriatory compression is quite good and never had a problem with it. Here's Mobitix's reasons for not going to this format - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQaTjSs0cvc

Don't know why you had bad support, I thought their support was excellent, actually quicker to respond than Axis but I would say both are pretty equal. I had them connect to our camera to diagnose a problem, they fixed it and all was well.

Everytime I see an image from a Mobotix camera and compare it to images from other brands, it's a big WOW. What model Raytec IR did you use? I'm trying to get the feel of what size to get for us.

It says it comes with the lite version of it's software. When I looked into it deeper, it says the included software does not have the ability record and you need the premium software upgrade. Is this an outdoor camera or do you need to buy an outdoor enclosure?

It mentions that it has the ability to write directly to a HDD? And it mentions their own USB drive. Does it have the DVR like software where then you can review past events using the built in web server software, or the included software? Also, says 10x optical zoom, is that controllable remotely? Looks like a good value. Also, 30 fps in 4 mega pixel more, wow, pretty impressive. Also, how good is the human face detection? Seem like many p&s consumer cameras have face detect, it's about time it reached the surveillence market. What software works with this camera besides Sanyo software? It seems like they give you free software, but it doesn't support recording. Does that matter if the camera is actually recording to a USB hard drive? But then I assume you can't view the recorded events from the free software. The pay software is pricey, about the same price as the camera, ouch.

If quality is not an issue, check out Foscam at http://www.foscam.com/ There's many people that have bought these, I have 2, they will do what you want for $80, give you PT, built in illuminators, best quality you can get from Shenzhen, China, which is not saying much.

Some cameras are better at night than others, some mislead you into thinking they are good at night like Arecont and they midnight mode that is nothing more than extending the exposure time, but with a huge trade off totally blurring having anything moving in the video. Some camera are better, like Mobotix, but still not perfect. Panasonics also do well here. There's no substitute for light because even the best night sensor uses light reflecting of the sensor to make an image. So yes, you'll need some form of IR illuminators for anything that is not well lit at night and street lights are not well lit because the angle of the light is in a way that creates shadows on subjects faces. The common trend is to use one that uses LED's and they are specified by distance they work to, like 20 meters and the angle the cast the light at. Then you can use 4th grade geometry to figure out the width of the light at different distances. Popular brands include Axis, Raytec, Bosch, Pelco, Extreme.

I have the closest setup to what you are trying to do, and fully understand. I designed our community's (over 300 homes) access control and cameras and here's my take. First, throw away any vendor that providing you with Chinese made junk like Foscam or worse, unbranded crap using the Sony name but not really Sony, You want cameras that will not break after a few months, and make you look bad. You want a recognized brand name where you know you will get good service and products that will last 10 years, not 10 weeks. Next, evaluate what you are trying to accomplish. For example, we have entrance gates where our goal is to capture forensic evidence for police to use in case of vandlism or crashing into our gates. We also have a remote guard that needs to be able to identify a car, read a license plate and look into a car of varying shapes and heights. You can acomplish this with a bunch of low resolution cameras, or you can do this with fewer high resolution cameras. Your choice but consider that the less cameras you have that can do the job, the less labor to install, the less wiring, the less videos you have to review and sync up during an event. We chose Mobotix cameras, very expensive compared to junk that you are looking at, but is able to get very good day and night vision and razor sharp image quality. But the big value proposition is the DVR functionality is built into the camera. You can use a 32GB SD card on the camera and that should hold several weeks of events. This means you don't have to stress about having a wireless network to connect all the cameras to a single DVR/NVR, you are never limited to how many cameras you have or add. Also, having 3 MP at each camera gives you the detail you need to identify cars branding, license plates, peoples faces with one camera instead of 2-3. What I then do is have these in groups of 2-3 cameras at each location. These cameras are networked together via wire. You don't want WiFi, because with WiFi, you have to still connect the cameras to power, you still need an electrician, so why bother, just have the electrician run Cat5 to each camera and power it that way. WiFi cameas also have annoying power supplies at each camera, how do you hide that or prevent someone from unplugging it? To span larger areas, for example, you have multiple groups of cameras, in our case we have 6 gates. Each group can talk to a central location using a point to multipoint wireless bridge. For example, you can get Proxim 8100 series or Motorola Canopy base station and then put a client bridge at each group of cameras. This will allow you to view the cameras from a central point, like a clubhouse or office. Because each camera is self contained, there's no single point of failure like there is with the solution above. You can view all the cameras at once using the free software from Mobotix. This is not cheap, so initially, put a WiFi router at each gate, when you want to view video, go near the location and view it from a laptop connected to the WiFi router. It's cheap and easy. I know this seems expensive compared to the junk you have been quoted. But my attitude is to do it right and do it once. So instead of installing a dozen junk cameras, install a few good cameras and add to it as money becomes available. There's no need to rush and end up with something useless. I see surveillence companies bidding junk all the time, it's pathetic but they have the attitude that they will win a bid if they can bid more camera for less money and most communities like yours or mine will never know that they got junk because the salesman will convince them that it's as good as it gets and then when it breaks after the warranty period is over, it's fiesta time, more revenue for the them as they charge you double to just replace one camera at a time. What I do to find vendors to install a system, is first research which brands are best for you (ie. Axis, IQinVision, Mobotix, Stardot, Panasonic, Sony), then call the manufacturer from their website and get a referal of partners in your area. Don't make the mistake of comparing cameras solely on price, that's what the people bidding are counting on, the crappier the equipment, the more likely they are to close the deal and make the most profit.

I wanted to deploy Ubiquiti because of price but couldn't find one SI in my area (So Cal) that would touch it. I said try it, and if it doesn't work, I'll pay to take them down and replace them with higher end like Proxim or Motorola and not one would do it. Sooo, we are putting in Proxim 8100 series unless the terrain, trees and houses block the signal to where it's useless, then plan be is 900Mhz which is NLOS like Avalans or Motorola Canopy. So what's the price difference, under $300 for Ubiquiti, under $5K for Proxim, about $1K for Avalan, $4K with Motorola.

So if 5MP is better than 10MP, is my 3MP Arecont better than the 5MP?

Price and features appear great, CPU overhead is not so great. Depends on how many cameras you have, but I believe they require 1 core per 1 to 2 cameras. But I would imagine that the more optimistic number is lower resolution, but you can download it and test it, they do have an OSX version.

Check out Stardot. They make camera of different resolutions from 1 to 5MP. They also have analog out, so you can have a monitor backstage and then use PoE Cat5 to a computers on the network. From what I've seen of network cameras, Stardot is up there with German made Mobotix in terms of image quality, but they take CS mount lenses, so you can get a nice zoom lens to frame the stage the way you want and they tend to be considerably less expensive. Another consideration would be Arecont, close in price and image quality, uses CS mount lenses, but no analog out. I have one I'm selling that I used for a few days for testing on ebay for cheap if you are interested, search ebay.com for Arecont AV3100DN and I'm the one for $369 which is about half price. I also have an Arecont 4-10mm lens for $100. 3MP 1/2" CMOS sensor will give you a nice crisp picture. So why not Mobitix, there's a premium on these cameras for unique features that suits the surveillance market and outdoor use, so paying the extra money may not be a benefit to you. They are very good though. So why not #1 Axis from Sweden, not crazy about their image quality and to me, if you are going to be looking at a screen for hours, you want a nice crisp picture with little to no noise and good metering. The ones you noted, mostly made in China are not going to have the image quality for the money they cost. Don't waste money on PTZ, just get a variable focal length lens, manually zoom it to the image you want and leave it there. If you have to have PTZ, consider the Panasonic BB-HCM581, good value for the money.

I don't understand the logic. I have a DSLR camera, 12MP on a 1/2" CMOS sensor and it's way better than my previous DSLR from the same company with 6MP. So are you saying that a 1/2" (or in this case, 1/2.3") can not support twice the number of pixels? Sure, I can take a 6MP image and use Photoshop to interpolate it to 10MP and honestly say I have a 10MP image, but it's not the same as having a raw image generated from a 10MP sensor.

The camera has the ability to set exposure zones, so you can set it to meter on the interior area instead of the broad default area. Also consider that while it's a night sensor, it's not magic, there has to be some light and I would recommed that you use an IR Illuminator or even a light on in that room is all that would be needed, maybe a 60-100 watt bulb. But if you want to overcome that outdoor light coming in, you may need some more serious lighting. Dont' be tempted to use a flourecent bulbs, it doesn't give off much IR light. The M12 is a very complex camera with lots of settings for exposure, metering and such. You need to review the manual and try different settings to get the most out of it. Also, get help from their support. Also, I understand that lux is a popular unit of measure used to compare cameras. From my experience, it's a totally worthless number, as useless as processor clock speed on computers, but people still use that to compare. I have Axis cameras, rated to 1 lux, and I'm lucky if I can ID someone in a room with a 60 watt bulb, the Mobotix will handle that easily.

I think I would prefer to have less of a wide angle lens on my Mobotix M12D because faces are to far way to recognizable. Sending it in to the factory to have a lens swap is 300 euro, ouch. On the Flip cameras, people are gluing a ring adapter for a camcorder lens like from SunPack and then you can screw on a various number of lenses to make it more wide angle or more telephoto. Do you think that would work?

I live for the bells and whistles Anyone want an Arecont AV3100DN with Arecont 4-10mm lens? Used only a few hours to do a proof of concept with and is in the original packaging. It's missing bells and whistles but it has all the stuff thewireguys says it has.

That's my biggest gripe with Arecont, no built in software to do what most IP cameras do. To give you an idea, any cheap Chinese camera or Axis or Mobotix will do what you want to do. You can do what you want to do, but you need to have a PC and software running all day to do it, a huge waste of electricity and a PC. If he's willing to change cameras, check out Stardot, They run about the same price range as Arecont, they also have a 5MP model and they allow ftp on a fixed schedule. Both companies are located in So Cal and Stardot seemed like nicer people to work with. Looking at images from both, I would say Stardot has slightly better image quality.

Most of the chinese cameras have the same exact software. I tried several and while they look a little different, they all seem to have the same options. I have never seen the option to put in night mode manually. On more expensive cameras i've used, you can. I use my Axis M10 looking out a window. So while it's not outdoors, it has a view of the outdoors, sort of an inexpensive way to do it. I have not seen any outdoor enclosure for the M10 but I ordered an underwater enclosure for my Flip camera, I wonder if the Axis will fit in there. It's good to 30' under water, it should be fine in the rain. costs about $40 shipped. It does not have an IR cutoff filter, so it can't be used at night with IR lighting but I can use it with motion activated flood lights which are cheap and a good theft deterrent.