C.O.P.

Seems to be fixed now. I just updated and no warnings. Sorry about the positive false!

I use Zone Alarm. The forums say it's a bug yet this is the only site I have the problem with so far.

My wife and I love that one. I've tried to do play with telemarketers but I seem to get the smart ones that hang up fast. My favorite is still, "Tell ya what, give me your home number and I'll call you back later."

I think this is an interesting thread. I am glad it got bumped. I would probably describe myself as one of those smart customers you guys are talking about. I generally do some of my own research first so I have a clue and compare apples to apples but then I like to get out there and see what's real. I tend to go to multiple sources for quotes and ideas. I ask questions to try to get an idea of how much the person really knows, how honest he is (hey, any women installers out there???), etc. Sadly, there are certain professions I simply don't trust any more because they tend to hype themselves and/or take advantage of people. The professions are usually based on "wants" more than needs by the consumers. The three main ones I distrust are dentists, car dealers, and mechanics. Dentists because I feel they invent or exagerate the needs for some services and mechanics... well let's just say I don't know any good/honest ones. I am convinced you have to be sub-human to be a car dealer. As someone said, quotes are asked for for a reason... to get the best price, quality, service, etc. The idea is you often will not get a 2nd chance so do your best in the first quote. IF you do get a 2nd chance, it's because you have something the customer didn't find elsewhere... he/she may just like you. Markups = bad in my opinion. Unless you buy at a discount and mark it up to retail, why charge a markup on the equipment the customer can get themselves? This is an area you can use to undercut less connected and/or greedy competition. Simply say here's a DETAILED list of everything you need and how much it will cost through me. If need be (would seem greedy) say for the fee of $$$ (that can be removed as a negotiating point) I will be happy to provide it all or you can feel free to obtain any/all of it yourself. Skills, experience, and TOOLS are, in my opinion, what you guys are looking to get paid for. The problem is, the customer may not need ALL of them to the degree you'd liek to sell them. It's kind of like the difference between a specialist and a family doctor. If you want business and the customer only needs a "family doctor", don't charge him/her the specialist fee even if you can. Be sure to explain why in case the current customer talks to previous customers who needed a specialist! In short, be willing to sell what the customer needs/wants, not what you want to push on them. Knowledge is power. A lot of professions don't seem to get just how easy it is to look things up online these days. The "mysteries" of many professions can easily be broken by the internet. As mentioned, "smart" customers make for much better references and word of mouth sales. If they dazzle a friend with technical jargon, you don't have to. If they make the sale, you don't have to. Unfortunately thay can be harder to please. I had more to say but lost it in the details. Some times the customer just isn't prepared for the cost. My 6ft stockade fence is a prime example. We wanted to put in 150ft of 6ft stockade last summer. I got 3 quotes. The lowest was $4800. The highest was $9600! The other was in the middle. We were shocked! I had already done some research but did ask each contractor what method and materials they planned to use. I got my own quotes for materials and came in much lower than all 3 contractors! If these guys do it for a living, their costs should be a lot lower due to volume and connections, not a lot higher!!! Granted, the labor is the hardest part about installing a fence and was the largest portion of the quote but all 3 contractors stated they had machines that "simply pounded the posts into the ground". How hard can that be!?!?! The short of it was I looked up online how to build a fence. I bought all the supplies, tools, and equipment I needed (including a 2 man post hole digger, concrete, gravel, scrap wood for temp braces, etc.) to build a 250 foot (not the 150 I planned on) fence for a little less than $2000. I know the quality of craftmanship is not the same and it took a lot longer for my wife and I to do it BUT, we had little choice. The contractors should have looked at my house (all three came out to look at the site) and known I wasn't looking for a "work of art" fence or even the best materials... I wanted some privacy... period. Now at least one of them drives by regularly and probably thinks, "that $#%^% pumped me for info just so he could do it himself!" not realizing it was the lumber yard 4.3 miles away that offered good prices and free delivery that screwed him.

Unless you guys throw another wrench (point out a flaw) in my plans, I think I have settled on either 2 Panasonic WV-CP504 box cameras ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/business/security/spec_sheets/WV-CP500series_specifications.pdf or 1 WV-CP504 and 1 WV-CW504 to get me started. ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/business/security/spec_sheets/WV-CW504Series_specifications.pdf I'll be using seperate IR illumination... either 2 long range or 1 short and one long depending on what setup i go with above. Unless you want to make suggestions in advance, I am not at specifics for the IR yet. What I am interested in are suggestions for lenses for the box cameras. Because it will be focused about 50 feet away (give or take after final adjustments), using IR light at night (mostly) I think I would want a 50mm, varifocal, AI lens. I was considering the Tamron 13VG550-SQ The Tamron 13VG550-SQ is a 5-50mm vari-focal auto iris lens that offers the highest quality images for all mid and longer range applications. This flexible lens has an extended adjustment range (10X) while maintaining a compact and lightweight chassi design. Sharper image quality is made possible through Tamron's use of two aspherical lens elements that enhance performance by eliminating distortion and providing superb corner to corner sharpness. The 13VG550-SQ offers excellent low light performance through the f/1.4 coated optics and increased dynamic range by incorporating a 3 blade iris with a neutral density filter. Ships with a pre-wired 4 pin connector. For all 1/3" CCD cameras that has a standard CS lens mount. This "best in class" lens is only a few dollars more than our lowest cost 5-50mm lens. The Tamron 13VG550-SQ is worth every penny. ! Angle of view: 5.3 degrees (at 50mm) to 53.4 degrees (at 5mm). but it does not specify "IR correction"... unless "The 13VG550-SQ offers excellent low light performance through the f/1.4 coated optics and increased dynamic range by incorporating a 3 blade iris with a neutral density filter." = IR correction. I looked at the panasonic lenses but besides being almost double the price, I don't think the specs looked as good (of course I am not very sur what is important either). This thread has pics and descriptions of the area I want to cover and the task I want to accomplish. viewtopic.php?f=34&t=19883 Any thoughts? Am I getting there?

Got ya. Now what about that "f" spec question. What does the number after the dash mean? Originally, I assumed a spec of "f1.4-360" on a varifocal meant it was f1.4 in wide and f3.6 tele.

To clarify my question (though I understand what you're saying)... on average, it would be better to use a 40mm 1/2" lens if you can to do the same job as a 50mm 1/3" lens because, in general, the aperture opening on a 1/2 zoomed to it's 40mm max will be larger than the aperture opening on a 1/3" zoomed to it's 50mm max? The idea being the "tele" effect of using the 1/2" lens on a 1/3" camera will allow you to use a shorter focal length lens to shoot the same distance as, say, a 1/3" 50mm lens but the sensitivity will be better at night due to (in general) the larger aperture opening on the 1/2" lens. Here is my understanding of how the aperture opening is effected by zoom: If you roll up a piece of paper then pull the inside out to make a "telescope/cone" shape, the more you extend the cone, the smaller the opening will be at the far end. The smaller the opening, the less light you get coming into the cone. Therefore, if you start with a larger sheet of paper (making the original roll larger), you can extend the cone as far as the original roll but the small end will be larger at the same length. Is that a good comparison?

What does the spec mean for a lens when it says "f1.4-360" or "f1.4-300", etc. I have a clue about the "f1.4" but what does the number after the dash mean? Also, I discovered this statement on the Bosch lens site: "The high design standards of the 1/2-inch lenses make them a perfect match for both 1/3-inch and 1/2-inch type cameras. When used with 1/3-inch type cameras, the 1/2-inch lenses provide a more "telephoto" effect." http://resource.boschsecurity.us/documents/IR-CorrectedZoo_DataSheet_enUS_T2388579979.pdf It's my understanding the smaller the mm is on a varifocal lens, the better picture you will get at night (lower f). My thought then is why not go with a 1/2 lens that is a smaller mm with a natural "telephoto effect" to reduce the "f" than a larger mm 1/3 lens?

What's the best way to attach a rope to a Reg L1 and rip it off given: Low light conditions A mirrorless jeep 2 drunk guys and no clue where there is a Reg L1!

That will be very cool when they can do it. I suspect AI versions are pretty far off but I can see remote control units soon. Will add a new level to the term "bugging"!

Speaking of covert cameras, if she has any spot lights in place, a spotlight camera could work. I have seen "fake screwhead" cameras out there also. It's pretty scary what they can turn into a camera these days.

I will be looking to purchase one or more of the following cameras withing the next few weeks: Panasonic WV CP504 (not the L) Box Panasonic WV CP504 (not the L) Dome Samsung SHC 735 I will also be looking for a 40mm or 50mm day/night IR corrected lens for each camera above (I believe all 3 use CS mounts) Weatherproof housing (pref with heater/blower) and mount for any box cameras above. 1 long range (100ft+) and 1 mid range (50ish ft) IR setup 8 channel dvr card (240fps) (I am considering the GeoVision GV-1240) or 8 channel stand alone DVR (240fps) that will support the above cameras nicely. If anyone has any of these items (or similar) new/used they care to offload, PM me please.

Woot, my post is still here so I guess I did ok at not breaking any rules! Am I not one of the best "noobs" you ever had here?

I'm thinking someone may be going back to radio!

First, I assume you have already done the "no brainers" such as changing the locks and making sure windows are secure. Cameras won't help if she has a key. Also, depending on how long she was living there, she may have to be evicted legally. On to the cameras. 2nd, the level of problems you expect from her should dictate how much you put into this project. If you only expect minor theft and/or property damage, my advice below is probably ok. If you expect physical harm to anyone, get a pro. If you're specifically expecting trouble from her, I'd go with a cheap, temporary, wireless setup for now then upgrade. The image really only needs to be good enough to recognize her and since you already know her, you won't need much detail. If she really is psycho and has little or nothing to lose, going cheap could save you on replacements if she decided to ruin the cameras. Wireless should allow you to avoid having to run wires (range could be an issue though). Going cheap also allows you to go to discount stores and such and pick one up today! It may not do the job, picture quality wise, but it may deter her. Also, you can get them cheap enough such that you can then look for a better setup after you get the cheap one up and running. The house is large. If it is also "nice" and poses potential install problems, you may want to contact a professional installer. They have a lot more "tricks" up their sleeves (such as snakes to pull wires through walls and electricity sensors to avoid drilling into power lines) than the average home owner does. If she is really psycho, you may want to consider a secure and/or hidden enclosure for the recording device. All that said, I am NOT a professional installer or security consultant.

I heard about Bosch buying Extreme... from the Samsung tech, oddly enough. It's a bit of a pricey camera to risk getting 2nd hand, isn't it? Do you happen to know of any?

I'd install one or more observation windows and use regular cameras. If he just wants an indication of a jam without actually seeing what caused it then... He could also use a counting feature with a camera on each end of the belt. When the count on the camera covering the exit is not what it should be (calculated by using the incoming count less the number of product on the belt in the oven at any given moment... or however you would do it), you have a problem. I assume this method could be used to trigger an alarm and/or shut down the belt. Probably much more reliable than having an employee staring at a monitor for long periods of time.

If he (the OP) won't/can't sell direct and he can't get any marketing companies/suppliers to stock his product, he's screwed.

Now taking donations for my very own BOSCH REG L1 license plate camera! If only money wasn't an issue. I suppose if I bought 1 crappy camera this year and saved the rest of my budget for next year, I could get one.

So far I have attempted to contact the regional distributor for both Panasonic and Samsung with no success. I don't care how good the product is, if I can't get a quick email or call back... I'm going elsewhere. Personally, I think your company would be better off to hire a small inside sales and support department and do direct sales. In theory you could undercut the prices of competitors (with no middle man) so much, purchasers would have to pay attention! You create a website and make sure google and other search engines list you. In my limited experience with marketing contractors, their service is not great for the small fish. They prefer to push the stuff that sells itself... as in the manufacturer has already built the product recognition. SAVE BIG BY PURCHASING DIRECT FROM THE MANUFACTURER! Oh and both Panasonic and Samsung offer 3 year warranties.

Thank you so much for the info. Now I am getting somewhere. cglaeser, I did notice the Panasonic lens says f1.6 wide and f1.9 tele. The Tamron says f1.4-360... does that mean f1.4 wide and f3.6 tele? If so, I start to see why the Panasonic lens is so much more expensive. I found the Tamron 40mm IR lens that also has the f1.4-360 spec. So the next question is: for night time use, am I better of using a lens with a low f value or a lens with a higher f value but has IR correction?

Thanks Chris. The lens I mentioned above claims to have a "f1.4 coated lens" etc. The site I found it on has it priced about $99.00. I'm not sure if thatis considered high or not. Compared to the prices I was getting on the Panasonic 40mm ($180+) ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/cctv/SpecSheets/WV-LZA61-2S.pdf it certainly seems cheaper and better f1.4 vs f1.9. The Panasonic mentions nothing about aspherical lenses or better dynamics... am I supposed to be able to glean this information from the specs provided? Besides the idea Panasonic lenses probably play nicer with Panasonic cameras than 3rd party lenses do, is there a reason the panasonic lens would be better? In short, much like the 1/120,000 shutter speed pitch from Samsung, I am not sure what is marketing "fluff" and what is functional. The site sellina the 3rd party lens gave some information about "focal length", "lens aperture", "IR correction", and "aspherical lenses". Obviously I can't link it but I could do a copy and past if anyone is interested in what they have to say.

Hello people. A little background as to what brings me here. I live out in a rural area but on a very busy road that runs through that rural area. My house is only about 15 from the edge of the road. My driveway (really a small parking lot) is the roughly 15ft (long) by 50ft (wide) area between my house and the road. Over the last six years, I have been the victim of numerous drive-by vandalisms such as rocks, eggs, paintballs, etc. Recently, someone came into my driveway at night and removed (stole) both sideview mirrors from my jeep (via some kind of bat or club I suspect). This is the first time vandals have been bold enough to actually come on to my property! I reported it to the police but what can they do unless they get lucky? My wife and I figure it is time to get serious about a camera system. Like many, I plan to do it myself if I can (I have been out of work a few years so my budget for this is not great.). We decided if we are going to do this, we want to install a system that will maximize our chances to catch the vandals... not just frustrate us with low quality images the police can't use. I started by looking at the various department and discount store packages. I didn't see much that I thought would do the job. I started doing some research and thus far ended up here as my primary source of information. You guys are both a blessing and a curse! You're a blessing because I have read enough to know I would have been just tossing money away if I had gone with a package deal. You're a curse because the more I read, the more I want! Ok, here are my 2 (fooled you with my title, didn't I?) questions: 1) Are GeoVision DVR cards pretty much a "standard" or just popular on this site? I ask because the Geo is pretty much the only card is see mentioned a bit. 2) A few of the package deals I looked at came with signs and labels warning of video surveillance being in use. Is it generally required to post such warnings in a residential situation or are they more of a deterant?

mmm... I'm not too sure it's off topic. Wish list = wants/preferences Match preferences with product qualities and there's your pitch. That's the short version or you can read on for my usual long-winded version. The bigger the wish list, the easier it should be for him to find qualities about his product that fit the needs of the installers... even if his product lacks some of the basic "wants". For example, he could say "includes pig tail adapter for common interface tools for convenience" but leave out the fact you may have to take the camera apart to get at the ports. Listing qualities that should be obvious or assumed could give him a leg up over manufacturers who don't bother with the detail. Case in point... my thread about lenses for a panasonic camera. The Panasonic lens double the cost of the lens I was thinking about going with. Panasonic fails to list (or maybe doesn't have) several details the other much cheaper lens did list. This lead me to assume the Panasonic is mostly priced by brand recognition, not performance. I'm sure if I dug harder, I could get more specs on the lens to compare apples to apples but at first look, Panasonic is relying on it's name to make the sale. Yet another example: Why do you think car dealers bother to list "power breaks" and "power steering" on car tags despite the fact you'd be hard pressed to get a car without them these days? Mostly it's to add an inflated sense of value but it's also to avoid issues such as (extreme case here) "so and so's BMW's come with P/B and P/W but the other guy's does not". All that said, build a wish list. The worst that can happen is he takes notice and fills as many of the wishes as he can. Otherwise he's just another marketing person saying his product is better because someone else said so. Heck, if I were him, I'd do a HUGE survey of installers to find out what features they look for, what features are deal breakers, and what improvements they would recommend. I'd be willing to bet there is a lot of low-hanging fruit they could grab to set themselves apart.

True Soundy, But unless the developers are going out and doing installs to see how user-friendly they are, they need installer feedback. You can't get installer feedback (except for the general ideas such as the ones you gave) without getting your product into the hands of experienced/respected installers (amatures and startups won't carry much weight for references but can give valuable feedback). Experienced installers (yes, I am using "installers" to refer to guys who install the camera systems for a living) tend to have preferred products already. Why would you risk your reputation and customer reference on a new product unless you had incentive? That said... a simple pitch such as, "our product is designed by and for installers", would help... if there is some truth to it. I suspect many installers are paid by the job, not by the hour (the few I know bid per job) therefore anything that helps to get that camera up and running fast would be a big help. "Time is money." The warranty on the install would help determine camera choice also. Am I going to be the one going out to the site each time the customer wants a minor adjustment or do I want end-user friendly equipment that I can guide them through adjustments over the phone? Maybe I'd want a camera that minimizes the use of supplies/consumables? Maybe it works well with cheaper cable? (yes, I am shot gunning here.) Easily swapped out? Can the firmwear be upgraded? How about modular? Something that allows you to "create your own camera" without the need to extensive training or tools? I would think this could save both the manufacturer and the installers lots of money and time. Reaching here but... select your camera body/frame, then pop in the CCD module, the interface module, the power module, wireless module, lense mount, etc??? Camera acting up? No problem... pop in a new ____ module and you're good to go. Customer wants to upgrade... no problem. Application conditions change... no problem. I know... either you can already do this (and I didn't know... big surprise) or it's a pie in the sky. Did I ever mention I have done a lot of process and product improvement work over the years? My moto is "Laziness is the mother of invention"... as in there is always a way to make a process (and it's associated products) easier and more efficient. It comes from being a salaried employee for many years (paid by the one big job) and kaizen type training.