MiamiRob

Thanks Hardwired! Rob

I am on the Board of my condo. We are installing a new security system. We will spend about $350,000. I am writing to request comments on the cameras that the security company has proprosed. We have not finalized the design so changes can be made. (The system will also include access control.) I work in the technnology field for a large corporation and I am experienced in designing and installing local and wide-area infrastructure for large office towers and other types of buildings and managing the installation of those systems. However, I have never been involved with security system design and I am trying to educate myself quickly. The company is suggesting the follow cameras: 9 of Sa-SCC 4301 Hi Powered Zoom, $320 each 13 of Speco CVC 650 IRVF Dome, $320 each 13 of Speco CVC 650 IRVF Dome Wall Camera Mount, $80 each 13 of Speco CVC 6700, $320 each 12 of Everfocus EPTZ 1000, $1,560 each 12 of Everfocus EPTZ 1000 Wall Camera Mount, $104 each 5 of Speco CVC - 60, $336 each (for elevators) I realize that without seeing a plan of our four-acre property, no one can determine if the quantities and types of cameras are correct. I am seeking general comments about the quality of the cameras. I am concerned that they are possibly not so great. I have tried to find discussions about speco on this and other forums but I can't see to find any. I would be eager to hear recommendations for other camera brands. I would like to install some PTZ cameras that automaticallly track people that come into the cameras view. For the most vulnerable parts of our property, I feel that having the cameras automatically detect intruders without relying on our guards to catch the intruder on camera is ideal. Our guards try hard, but they can get distracted doing other things. How much would a camera that auto-detects\auto-track costs? I think about $5,000 a PTZ camera, but I am not sure. I looked at http://www.ioimage.com/ I am not sure if this type of software is needed in additional to cameras with autonomous tracking capability or if autonomous tracking ability is already active in such a camera without the need for additional software. Is there some general standard for what percentage of security system cost are cameras, cabling, labor, etc. The intial bid breaks down costs to Computers, DVRs, etc., $35,040, 10% of total cost Labor $95,665, 28% of total cost Cabling-Misc, $68,800 20% of total cost Hardware, $71,367, 21% of total cost (cameras, access control system components, etc.) Conduit, $75,000, 22% of total Notes; -- The wiring for our current security system is not run in conduit. We have budgeted $75,000 for conduit installation. Hopefully, we will come in way under budget -- Labor and Cabling Misc. - I am going to meet with the security company and clarify these costs. I am ver familiar with cabling office towers and these number seem high. The combined labor and cabling costs seem VERy high to me. I welcome comments on this. Thank you very much. Robert

I have been working with the security company on integrating video analytics cameras into the plans for the perimeter of our building. The security company presented their current version of the access control and security camera plan to us yesterday. The plan includes the cameras listed below. The entire system is going to be IP. Everyone's comments\suggestions are very welcomed. Ioimage Cameras for Video Analytics 7 - Ioimage XPTZ 26x Zoom Analytic Cameras http://www.ioimage.com/?p=ProductDetails&ClusterID=811&ParentID=624&FatherID=775 3 - Ioimage WDC-100DN Fixed Analytic Cameras http://www.ioimage.com/?p=ProductDetails&ClusterID=809&ParentID=624&FatherID=775 Vivotek Cameras 27 - Vivotek FD7141 http://www.vivotek.com/products/model.php?network_camera=fd7141 10 - Vivotek FD7132 http://www.vivotek.com/products/model.php?network_camera=fd7132 Are the Vivoteks good cameras? 4 - Sony ED350 Elevator Cameras http://www.#######/store/day-night-dome-security-cameras/?&sort=title&sort_direction=0&xsearch_brand=33 We are negotiating camera pricing based on a cost-plus structure. They want cost plus 40%. (We have not agreed to that percentage. That is what the security company is proposing.) The security company is giving us their costs for these cameras as: Vivotek FD7141 $570 Vivotek FD7131 $360 Ioimage XPTZ 26x $2.960 Ioimage WDC-100DN $1,530 There are also four cameras for the elevators for which they specifying "ED350 Elevator camera". I think that they must be Sony cameras. (I will clarify that with the company on Monday.) I found this link for a Sony elevator camera. I think this is it. http://www.#######/store/day-night-dome-security-cameras/?&sort=title&sort_direction=0&xsearch_brand=33 However, on the Sony site, this camera is not listed. http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-securitycameras/cat-cctv/ Right now, I am working on making sure that the network switches they are proposing (Cisco2960G-24TC) are sufficient to handle the traffic this network will generate. They are proposing to connect the cameras to one of three switches with each switch located in different areas of the property. The main reason to locate the switches in different areas of our 500ft+ long property is because of the 100m Ethernet limitation. A side benefit will be that shorter cable runs will be required. Two of the switches will connect back to a main switch in the main tech room. Fiber will be used for switch-to-switch connectivity. I have a feeling that the head-end switch will have to be a larger switch to handle all the traffic coming in from the two other switches. Plus the NVR and computers for the guard stations will also be connected to the head-end switch. I work with computer networks so I am not worried about figuring this out. As Soundy and others have pointed out, I am giving the security company a lot of help (aka, time.) The security company has some smart people but this system is by far the most advanced they have ever installed because of the combination of video analytics and IP. Today, as I reviewed the plans and proposal, I realized that the elevator cameras are analog but on the head-end, there is no equipment to which the elevator cameras can connect. (The security company said that elevator cameras always have to analog. I forget what reason they gave for that.) I continue to appreciate everyone's expert advice and help. Rob [edit by mod-no store links please]

Soundy that is good advice. I like Ioimage because their video analytics technology are easy to configure using a browser. Also, a fixed camera can "hand off" an event to a PTZ to continue tracking someone when the person moves out of the fixed camera's view range. I also like the national sales manager for ioimage. He answered my questions very honestly and was very open to helping me understand the ioimage products without trying to sell them to me. The security system company that we are working with signed up to be national reps for Ioimage (or something like that.) The company is also signing up to sell Exacqvision products. Until the security system company started working with me, they saw to reason to get involved with companies that specialized in IP-based systems. That has changed quickly. Now they seem to realize that IP is the future. I meet with the security company in a couple days to try to hash out pricing. I want them to price all the equipment using a cost plus from the wholesale price. The owner of the company had suggested at a previous meeting that he wanted a 40 percent mark-up on all equipment but he would not confirm that he meant 40 percent of the wholesale price. For sure, we are not basing cost-plus on the retail price.

I am sorry that I haven't posted an update recently. I have had the security company that we are using totally redesign the system. We are nowgoing to install cat6 and run IP cameras. The exterior of the building and property permimiter will be monitored using ioimage IP cameras. The cameras have on-board video analytics and should work very well for our puposes. THey company would like to use exacqVision VMS Software for the cameras. I would prefer to use software that integrates the camera and access control system but apparently that is not possible becuase there are limited vendors that have software that can support th ioimage cameras. I am continuing to investigate this. I am going to spend the weekend reviewing hundreds of pages of information and I will be posting here hoping that you will all be as generouse with your time as you have been in the past and help me out with questions. Thank you. Rob

I have a pricing question about access control. Perhaps, I should post it in another forum. But in that my question relates to the master system that we have been discussing, I am going to post it here. I will be happy to post it elsewhere if that is how I should be handling it. For every door in our building that will be connected to the access control system and opened using a card or key fob, the security company is quoting: 1 RF Receiver $320 1 DCD Board $420 1 Door ajar contact $16 Cabling, installation and configuration, one yr of support $600 Total $1,356 Is the RF Receiver is the device over which the key fob or card is passed when a person wants to open a door? This pad would be cabled to the head-end controller\server, right? What is the DCD board? Are these prices reasonable? At least to me, the costs seem to be high for this type of technology. There are many of these setups in the proposal for our building. Thank you very much. Rob

s Destro_23 wrote, I know realize that IP is going to bring a whole new host of issues. And, as he suggests, I am sure that the security company probably views IP as an opportunity to make money on more expensive cameras, etc. The company is proposing a 40% markup on equipment. That mark up would be from their cost. In my corporate life, I usually work with a 20% markup. What would the normal markup be in the security system installation business? I am accustomed to companies making money by charging for their technological expertise rather than by making 40% on their equipment, but I am open to considering that 20% may be too low. It would be great to receive responses about pricing. In my computer career, I have designed many networks that support buildings with thousands of people so I am experienced in network design, implementation and network support. Moving to IP makes the security system just another network but with cameras instead of computers. Which makes me ask myself at what point the expertise of the security company comes into play. My building already has a security plan that was done a few years ago by an excellent security consultant; and so the placement of the cameras has already been established. The electrician will run the conduit. I could hire a cabling company to pull the cable, install the patch panels in the tech room and rack the Ethernet switches, etc. I would imagine that an electrician could also mount the cameras and connect them to the cabling. I need the security company to connect the cameras to the head-end equipment and configure the software that the guards use to manipulate the cameras. I also need the security company to support the system in the future. If the Ethernet network is working fine and the cabling connections to the cameras are all good, where, in everyone’s experience would problems typically occur? Where will an inexperienced security company make mistakes that an experience, seasoned security company would not make? Are the head-end connections difficult? I am more than willing to pay a lot of money for the time and expertise of a security company where those expenditures are warranted. From long experience, I know that it is far better to pay what some may consider too much to obtain the benefits of experience and expertise from professionals. The problem for me is that I am starting to feel that much of the work involved in the installation of our security system does not require the involvement of a security company. (I realize that some who have posted in this message thread have long suggested that.) I have also considered that my own technology experience is possibly making me a little arrogant and perhaps the installation of a security system is more complicated that I believe it to be. On the other hand, if a security company experienced in the installation of IP networks told me they were going to install a network in a fifty-person office and connect all the computers, other than file server configuration, I would say that they would be more that up to the task. I guess I view the head-end equipment in a security system as being analogous to file servers in a computer network. Video analytics I have decided that my building should install a security system that has some ability to autonomously monitor the perimeter of the property. I have spent a considerable amount of time reading about ioimage cameras. Their current list of products is at http://www.ioimage.com/?p=ProductLandingPage&ClusterID=775&ParentID=624 Ioimage has a new video analytics-capable camera priced less than $1,000. In that the security is company is charging us $600 device for cabling, installation and configuration plus the cost of the camera (meaning $1,000+ for each camera installed), I am seriously considering that it would be better to protect the perimeter be installing fewer fixed ioimage cameras that hand off to ioimage PTZs (or another companies’s PTZs with ioimage video analytics enabled.) Some areas of the property would not always be visible on camera, but in that over 25% of our property is accessible only from the water (we are on the Bay in Miami,) and in that the PTZ would continually pan to preset areas, it would be hard for someone to land a boat and jump onto the property without being detected. I know that most of you are expert-level and that what is amazing and new to me is old-hat to you, but just in case you have not already seen video analytics in action, there are some great demos at ioimage http://www.ioimage.com/?p=Demos&ClusterID=489&MainCategory=444&TreeParentID=862&ParentID=642 Are any of you using video analytics? It would be great if you would comment on this technology. I sincerely appreciate all the help that those posting on this Board are providing. Rob

Are they on this forum too? Rory, We have a project management company that has relayed my concerns to them and that is why they made the change to cat6 and IP. We weren't going to go forward with a company that was putting in that kind of system. It is possible they are on ths forum, but I very, very seriously doubt it and they definitely made the changes to the plan based on feedback from the project manager. Rob

I am still working on the DVR / software issue. I appreciate your mentioning it because it remind me of how important it is. Tonight, I had another meeting with the security company. They totally dropped the idea of coax and now are proposing an IP system. They want to run cat6. They are costing $167 per thousand feet for the cat6 which, at least based on my computer experience is a good price. However, the cost of the actual cable is so minor compared to everything else, it hardly matters. I would like to use some cameras that have video analytics to monitor certain parts of our building's perimeter. I have been looking at cameras from ioimage. http://www.ioimage.com/?p=ProductLandingPage&ClusterID=775&ParentID=624 If anyone has any experience with ioimage or video analytics in general, I would very much like to hear your thoughts. Or if you have considered using video analytics but decided against using it, I would like to hear from you as well. Thanks, Rob

I have spent a few hours tonight re-reading everyone's posts and researching the info that you have all so generously provided. I realized that I have been so focused on hardware that I have forgotten about the software. How is the software used to control camera systems chosen? Is the software provided by the camera manufacturer or is there some "gold standard" of camera management\control software? I general, what should I look out for in terms of preventing inadequate software from being installed in our building? Regarding, Access Control software is that vendor dependent or is there some software that is normally considered the best to have? What functionality would great AC software provide that low-end AC software would not? In the buildings I toured while looking at security systems, the access control software and the camera software seemed to be basically separate. In other words, I could not pull up a fob number or person assigned to the fob and have the system show me each door they had opened with the fob and just click on the screen and see the picture of the person opening the door. I would have had to note the time the fob opened the door and then use the camera software of search to that time and camera to find that image. I was hoping for something more integrated. For the main driveway, I would like a camera to read a license plate and input the license plate number into a database. The database would associate the license plate with the resident that he or she is visiting and would retain that information so that next time when the car pulled into the driveway, the guards could call the driver by name. The system would also have a camera at the exit that would again scan the license plate to let the database know that they care had left our property. Using the data retained over time, traffic patterns (peak, off-peak) would easily be known.Does any software like this exist? Thanks, Rob

So the way that the connection works is that cate5e extends from the head-end through the conduit and then just before the cate5e connects to the cameras, an RJ-45 connector is inserted in a balun and then a coax connector connects the other side of the balun to the camera, right? How long would the piece of coax typically be between the camera and balun? Is the balun hidden in the conduit or if one is looking at the camera mounted on the side of the building outside is the balun visible? (I guess what I am asking is how is the balun protected from the weather.) This seems like sort of a clunky connection but based on what I have read in this thread, I guess that most cameras don’t have RJ-45 adapters built-in so the balun-to-coax connection is necessary. In theory for, say a 50m run of cable, could cat5e be substituted for coax and, using a balun the camera, would work just fine? Does plenum in any way negatively impact the performance of cat5e cable? Does plenum degrade the video signal? Rob

Thanks for this great info. So if coax is used PTZ cameras need a separate cable run (siamese cable?) for power or an electrical plug near the camera? But if cat5e is used, PTZ camera can get their power over the same cat5e cable over which the camera transmits video? Is this true for most PTZ cameras for just for some PTZs? How much more expensive are 24VAC cameras than 12VAC? Is the price different significant? Would each camera in a system typically have its own power supply in the main wiring room or is it possible for multiple cameras to share power supplies? Rob

Scorpion, Do you mean that the camera recognizes the license plate and compares it to plates in a datebase and based on a match, the gate opens? If that is how this works, how reliable is this type of system? Can such a system convert the license plate info into text so that the info can be fed into a software program and be used with other data? Thanks, Rob

Rory, This is great info. I will definitely ask them the questions. Thank you VERY much. Rob

I just read all the posts from tonight. The expertise on this forum is just amazing. I am learning so much and realizing that a security system done well involves tremendous planning and thought. I was going through the quote again tonight and I realized that I have asked about access control equipment costs. They are quoting many of the following pieces of equipment. They do not list a brand: Card Reader $320 each DCD Board $440 each Door ajar contacts $16 each Duress Alarm $440 each Door hardware MAG motion and button $1040 Door Hardware - ELEC - Egress hardware and hinge $1040 Is this pricing high as well? From the searching I did on the web, it seems that they are making a lot of money on these items. For the gate entry, we want to use Sunpass so they are installing 2 Transcore Encompass Readers for $5,500 each. I think that they are making a couple of thousand on each of those two devices. Do security companies work off cost-plus pricing for equipment, door hardware, etc? It would be a lot easier for me to know that if I want camera that cost xx that I would pay xx times 20% rather than having to go through some bargaining session. I am going to read all the posts in the morning. and try to decide how to move forward. I am very interested in using video analytics on our perimeter, but not many companies seem to know much about that. Rob

I got the dimensions of our property. It is a rectangle measuring about 580ft. along the street and extending back about 300ft. (174,000 sq. ft.) The wiring room and equipment room is about halfway back from the street and about a third of the way from one end of the property. In other words, the cabling all runs back to a location that, while not exactly in the middle of the property, is fairly close to the middle. I have read people comment on the use of coax versus cat5e. I am embarassed to say that I am not yet clear on which type of cable everyone feels should be run. So I hope that everyone will not mind if I re-ask some questions in an effort to understand the cabling type... Can IP cameras run over coax? The security company says that using coax for IP cameras is fine and that balans are just need to switch from coax to cat5e. I work with large computer networks and we always try to minimize the number of connection in cable runs. Connectors, patch panels, etc. are all sources of potential problems. A straight cable run is always best. I don't understand why they would push coax and say that adding a balan is as good as a single cat5e cable. Right now, all the cameras that the company is suggesting we install are analog. They said that the cameras could run over cat5e but that the signal would not be as clear as over coax. Is that true? Does cate5e not work well with analog cameras? Is it possible that the cameras they want to use only have coax connectors on the back and that is why they are pushing coax? In that I work with computer networks, I would very used to cat5e and cat6 cable and coax seems thick and not as easy to work with. I would think that it would be better to go with cat5e. However, the security company seems very opposed to even considering the idea of cat5e and seems set on coax. They base their decision on their belief that coax carries a better signal. I again want to thank all of you for your expert advice. Rob

I see some people have asked more questions about the pricing so I will recap... Total Labor (Cameras and AC system) $95,665 ($95\hour) Total Cabling $68,800 (Cameras and AC system) ($95\hour) Total Conduit $75,000 (budgeted - will be done by electrician) Total Access Control Hardware $30,672.00 Access Control Computer systems $19,200.00 Total Cameras $33,015.00 Camera details is as follows: 9 of Sa-SCC 4301 Hi Powered Zoom, $320 each 13 of Speco CVC 650 IRVF Dome, $320 each 13 of Speco CVC 650 IRVF Dome Wall Camera Mount, $80 each 13 of Speco CVC 6700, $320 each 12 of Everfocus EPTZ 1000, $1,560 each 12 of Everfocus EPTZ 1000 Wall Camera Mount, $104 each 5 of Speco CVC - 60, $336 each (for elevators) Security Desk - Computer $15,840 (PCs and DVRs, Monitors) Security Desk - Hardware $7,680 (not sure what this is for) Note: this is the desk in the lobby where the guards will sit and monitor the system. We got three bids from three security companies this bid was the middle bid. However, the bidders were chosen by our project management company. Maybe they chose bidders of a certain type, etc. I saw that someone wrote than a ten foot lenght of conduit is $5, but is that installed? How much should an electrician charge to mount the conduit on the wall\ceiling? How much would a company typically charge for a cable run to a camera? How much would a company typically charge to connect a camera to the cable and to the DVR? The company is saying that calculates six hours x $95 ($570) a device. They said that cost includes the cabling work, the connecting to the DVR, their workers comp, etc. They said that they calculate every card reader, door opener, etc. at $570. That seem very high to me. I appreciate everyone's continue input. This is incredibly helpful. Robert

Rory, I mentioned wireless today but the security company said that when it rained the signal would get bad or not work and that to have wireless cameras that worked we would have to spend a lot of money. The head of the security company laughed real loud and said, "no way, no wireless cameras." This guy only wants to install his coax runs to his cheap analog cameras. Are Everfocus 1000 PTZs that cost $1500 any good or is that a really mediocre PTZ camera? Rob

Christopher, To my knowledge, they have never been to our property at night. I was not the person who took them through the proprerty. We have a project management company that does that. However, I think that they were here once for a hour or so before the quoted the work using the plans we provided. However, they could have been on site much longer than an hour. I am not sure. the pricing is as follows: AC Hardware $30,672.00 AC Labor $46,455.00 ($95\hour) AC Cabling-Misc $26,400.00 AC Computer $19,200.00 Total Access Control $122,727.00 Camera- Cameras $33,015.00 Camera- Labor $31,160.00 ($95\hour) Camera- Cabling-Misc $30,400.00 Total Cameras $94,575.00 Sec Desk - Computer $15,840 (PCs and DVRs, Monitors) Sec Desk - Labor $18,050 Sec Desk - Wiring/Misc $12,000 Sec Desk - Hardware $7,680 Total Security Desk $53,570.00 Note: this is the desk in the lobby where the guards will sit and monitor the system. $75,000 had been budgeted for conduit for access control and camera systems

What are the distances to the cameras? Best, Christopher Christopher, The distances to most of the cameras is 150ft. max. Perhaps a some of the cameras are 300ft runs, but most cabling runs would be not be that long. What is the distance limitation of IP cameras? Is there the 250ft distance limitation of Ethernet? The guy that runs that security companiy is insistent that coax should be used. Is there any advantage of coax over cat5e? Why would he insist on using coax? Rob

I hope you heard this wrong. They will run all Cat5e and convert coax to Cat5e, right? Best, Christopher Christopher, I didn't hear it wrong. They said that they are going to run coax cable in all the conduits. If they need to convert to Cat 5e\RJ-45 to connect to a camera, they will use a balan to convert to Cat5e\RJ-45 in the last foot before the cable connects to the camera. They said that the primary cable should be coax because it carries a signal better. By you response, I assume that running coax is not how it should be done and that Cat5e should be the cabling run in the conduits. Why do you think that they want to run coax? Why they not want to run cat5e? Rob Rob

Well, I just met with the security company to try to work out final pricing and discuss the system. Here are some things that they said: They are going to run all coax and if they install an Cat5e camera they will use balans to convert to Cat5e cable to connect to the camera. They said that the signal travels better over coax and that in general coax is just a better cable choice that Cat5e. I asked them why if, in the future we go to all IP and could just clip in RJ-45 connectors we should have to deal with baluns. They again said that coax is a better conductor of the video signal. Someone asked them about using plenum (not sure if it was for coax or cat5e) and they said that plenum can hurt the signal and that unless fire code required it, they do not use plenum because of cost and signal problems. They said that they calculate six man-hours at $95 an hour to install every camera, door card reader, etc. The said that they use the 6 hour\$95 an hour for all their installations. That they have found that 6 hours is what it takes to install each device including cable pull, installation and configuration. That seems incredibly high to me. They said that some types of cameras cost more to install because they are technically more complex. They were referring to cameras with video analytics. (The 6 x $95 hour does not include the cost of installing the conduit. That cost is separate.) They said that for $378,000 (earlier wrote we were spending $358,000. that was incorrect. It is $378k.) Speco fixed cameras are all that can be included and that any better cameras would cost more. They said that analog is best for our condo and that IP systems create too much traffic and that we would have to add huge amounts of disk storage to handle the IP images. That is not correct is it, can't the fps or quality be cistomized fo reach camera on an IP system? I welcome everyone's thoughts. I am feeling furstrated and that we are walking into paying far too much for what we are getting. To save money in conduit and cabling is it possible to design an IP security system in the same way that a computer network would be designed. By that I mean that we have equipment at the head end to which some cameras connect and then install a switch in a building, say the clubhouse and then run all cameras from the pool deck and the tennis courts to that switch. Then we connect that switch to the headend switch\equipment using TP or fiber. Or would the conduit costs and cabling saved not be worth the trouble. I guess I am thinking of designing the system with the various switches around the property being analagous to floor switches in an office tower that connect back to the main tech room on another floor. Rob

In a hybrid system, I understand that there are IP and analog devices. However, I am not clear what happens on the head end. Is the DVR different for a hybrid system? Is a hybrid system DVR able to accept both analog and IP connections? What would be the disadvantage of installing a hybrid system if it can do both analog and IP? Rob

can analog cameras run over cat5e or do analog cameras need siamese cable? In that we are going to install completely new conduit and run all new cable, we should be installing an IP or hybrid system, right? Installing an analog system would not be that way to go, would it? thanks, Rob

Rory, The proposal has an "important exclusions" section that contains the following info: Does not include permit fees Does not include conduit, pull strings, power, gutters, plywood, or concrete Does not include bonding fees, or extra insurance requirements Does not include door hardware unless where noted Must coordinate with elevator company Elevator company to provide hanging cables with necessary data, video, audio Elevator company to provide controller interface and tie-in Electrician to help interface to elevator company and assist in elevator machine rooms Millwork for desk provided by other and built by other--will help coordinate drawings (note to Rory: this is security desk in lobby) All unit work needs coordination with painter, drywaller, and elec. (all conduit by other) Includes 1 year warranty on parts and labor Extra warrant can be purchased on service contract for extended warranty Signed and sealed drawings if required by the city to be billed to owner Does not include bonding fees or extra insurance requirements Does not include signal modification or equipment to view cameras on cable channels Does not include any items not listed in above proposal ---- Regarding the length of the job, it will not last a year, we hope to have all the work done by early summer so as soon as some areas of construction are complete, the new camera system and access control system will be installed. The work is to be done quickly. It should take a month at most, I would think. What is the markup on equipment that is generally considered to be acceptable in the security business. When I have cabling companies do work for computer networks installations, we typically agree to add 20% on to wholesale cost of all cabling, tech plates, etc. When we buy Cisco networking equipment, HP servers or workstations, etc., we buy that based on huge corporately negotiated pricing so I do not know the markup. However, if I was to have a company install any security equipment at my work, we would probably work off the cost plus 20 percent as well. As you realize, the quote for my condo building is adding a lot more than 20%. And the cabling costs just do not make sense to me. I certainly do not want anything on the cheap and I am more than willling to pay the security company for their experitise and hard work. However, I do not want to be charged excessive pricies and that is what is happening now. We received three quotes from three security companies and all the pricing was in the same range. But all that means is that the quotes were all too high. I meet with the security company today. I am going to ask them to get pricing on better cameras and discuss the markup so that, moving forward, the cost markup is clear to all. I am also going ot ask them to provide much more detail on their cabling quote and on their wiring\misc. quote. I don't understand how they can, in just one section of the bid, charge $11,000 for cabling\misc when, if I were doing this system at work, would expect to pay less than $200 for a reel of a thousand feet of cable. (There are additional cabling costs in other parts of the bid so the $11,000 is just a start.) It is very nice of you to take the time to respond to my questions. The information that you and others on this Board are providing is a huge help to me. Rob