MiamiRob

Hello. In 2010, my condominium installed a new security system. Because my career is in Technology, I had an IP-based camera and access control system installed rather than an analog system. Many members of this forum gave me excellent advice about that system and I continue to be very appreciative of that help. IN BRIEF: I am posting to ask if anyone knows of a camera manufacturer who sells PTZ video analytic cameras. I am trying to replace two broken Ioimage PTZ cameras. Ioimage no longer sells PTZs, they only sell fixed cameras. I would like to find another video analytic PTZ vendor. IN DETAIL: About fifteen of the sixty or so IP cameras installed the property of the condominium at which I live are Iomage video analytic (VA) cameras. Five of the cameras are PTZs. Two of these five PTZ cameras are broken and cannot be fixed. (The cameras were damaged in a strong storm.) Ioimage no longer sells video analytic PTZs. They only sell fixed VA cameras. Ioimage has offered to replace the two broken cameras with new PTZs for $2,500 which is we paid for the cameras originally. In that Iomiage no longer sells PTZs, I would prefer not want to use their PTZ product. I would like to find another video analytic PTZ manufacturer that is committed to the PTZ VA business. I would like video analytic cameras that perform the video analytics within the camera itself, not using a central server. The Ioimage have internal analytics software and this has worked well. Ideally the PTZ cameras from another vendor would accept "hand-offs" from our existing Ioimage fixed video analytics. The Ioimage cameras have worked very well in terms of their video analytic capabilities. However, there have been reliability issues. Over time, we have had problems with both the Ioimage fixed and PTZ cameras. With the fixed cameras, the infrared filters have all had to be replaced. Because of a manufacturing defect, the IR filters would move into place but then not retract. At first, our security company was sending the cameras back to Ioimage one-by-one for repair as the filters failed. However, when Ioimage finally realized that there was a widespread problem, they sent someone to our building to replace the filters in all our fixed Ioimage cameras. Prior to the current PTZ failures, we have had two of our five PTZs fail at various points. The PTZs just kept spinning continuously. Because the PTZ failures happened in the first year under the warranty, Ioimage replaced the cameras free of charge. Our building is totally sold on the value of video analytic cameras. We feel that the cost is well justified. The ability of the cameras to make intelligent decisions about events and alert our guards only when required has been tremendously valuable. The "hand-off" from fixed cameras to the PTZs works very well. (Assuming the PTZs are functioning properly.) I have personally spent hundreds of hours learning about and configuring the cameras. I have done everything from performing the initial camera set-up to configuring the system to alerts the guards when the video analytics detection rules send the guards alerts about intruders and other events. The initial setup of the camera requires some work. The slope of the ground, height of the camera, etc., all must be entered correctly or the video analytics does not work well. I am sure that many of you who are professionals are better versed in these cameras, but I thought I would take the liberty of telling you some of what I have learned: Ioimage considers the gold standard in video analytics to be fixed cameras. They view video analytic PTZs as "gravy". In the mind of Ioimage, ideally a property would be totally covered by fixed VA cameras because the fixed cameras have better resolution. Of course, complete coverage with fixed VAs is expensive so my building went with a combination of fixed and PTZ. The fixed cameras, based on how they are programmed, "hand-off" to specific PTZs. This works well except... 1) there are issues with determining priority in terms of which event (detected person) should be tracked. In that the fixed camera could detect another event while the PTZ is already tracking another event, it is possible that the PTZ could be instructed by the fixed camera to move away from an intruder to track something non-critical like a resident walking a dog when Security would rather the cameras track a stranger walking on the sidewalk a hundred feet away. 2) Fixed cameras can hand-off detected events (e.g., an intruder) to other fixed cameras and to PTZ cameras, but PTZs are NOT able to hand-off events to other PTZs or to fixed cameras. In other words, in terms of telling other Ioimage video analytic cameras what is going on, PTZs are dumb. 3) Once a event is handed-off by a fixed cameras to a PTZ, if the tracked subject moves out of PTZ camera range and is not detected by another VA fixed camera, tracking will stop. UNLESS another PTZ camera happens to be in a position to view the subject and is enabled to autonomously detect and track. In this case, tracking of the subject by the second PTZ will begin. BUT if a fixed camera configured to hand-off events to the PTZ instructs the PTZ to monitor another event, the subject\intruder initially being tracked will be dropped by the PTZ and the new instruction from the fixed camera will become the priority. In other words, fixed video analytic cameras run the show. PTZs follow instructions from fixed. 4) a PTZ camera can function without accepting a hand-off from fixed cameras and can perform its own video analytic detection and, when an event is detected, the PTZ will start tracking. This works well, however the loss of the PTZs ability to accept hand-offs from fixed VA cameras is a loss of functionality. Ideally there are enough cameras so it is that all PTZs work in hand-off mode. 5) Note: Rules can be set up to allow a PTZ to do its own video analytic detection as well as accept detection hand-offs from fixed cameras, but this setup can create big problems with detection priorities between fixed and PTZ cameras. If multiple events are detected simultaneously, the PTZ can end up quickly jumping between detected events. I sincerely appreciate any info or advice that anyone can provide about video analytic camera vendors. While I would like to know about video analytic PTZ cameras, I am also interested in hearing people's experiences with fixed video analytic camera brands other than Ioimage. Thank you. Rob

Does anyone know if Keyscan access control software requires that a file server running some type of Keyscan software be installed or if Keyscan does not need a file server and stores the configuration and all events in the various boards that come with the system? The security company installing the system in my condo building has a server listed as one of the required compenents for the Keyscan system but I don't see any mention of a server in the literature in the Keyscan site. http://www.keyscan.ca/English/Products_SystemVII_E.html Thank you very much. Rob

Based on everyone's experience, how much time is typically required to install a typical dome camera in a hallway drywall ceiling assuming that cat6 and wiring for power (not using POE) have already been pulled through conduit from the main tech room to the installation location? Is it resonable to say, on average, that the camera could be connected to the wiring, mounted in the ceiling and aimed\focused in two hours? Or is that too much or too little time? Thank you. Rob

Thank you, Sawbones. Rob

I missed seeing your post when I was reading earlier today. All I can offer is that if any of you ever need help designing or supporting a computer network or have any questions about servers, switches, routers, LANs or WANS, I will be happy to help. Also, if any if you are ever in Miami and would ever like to see my condo's security system once it is installed, I will be happy to give you a tour. In that the Ioimage PTZ lead time is about ten weeks, we will not have everything online until late July. Working on this is one of the most interesting things I have done in a while. You all have taught me so much. Thank you. Rob

Thank you for the info, Rory. On a fixed camera, what is the purpose of the wire that connects from the lens to the body of the camera? Is there a motor in the lens that allows the camera to be focused using software? Robert

I cannot thank everyone enough for this great information and advice. It is incredibly helpful. PTZ cameras don't need to be focused at the camera side, do they? Can't PTZ be focused using software on the computer. Or do PTZs auto-focus? Robert

I sincerely appreciate the input. And, yes, the cameras are IP cameras. In situations where a laptop is not able to be used because there is no wired or wireless network connection available at the camera location, (other than the connection for the camera itself) how is focusing and positioning typically handled? Assuming there are two or more people working on the install, is the person at the camera talking to another person who is looking at a monitor somewhere else on the property and getting instructions\feedback that is used to positioned and focus the camera? In terms of wall-mounted fixed cameras and PTZs, how much time would typilcally be allocated to install each of these types of cameras assuming that confuit and cabling are already in place. Thank you all very much. Rob

In the lobby of our condo building, there will be two security desks. The desks will be mirror images of each other. Each desk will have five 22" monitors. -- Monitors one and two will be used for the camera system. -- Monitor three will be used for the access control system. -- Monitor four will be connected a general purpose computer. -- Monitor five will be used to communicate with visitors that arrive at the front gate. We are installing a system that will allow arriving visitors to see\talk with a lobby guard when the visitors' cars pull up to the front gate. The security company has suggested the following monitor: HP Smart Buy LE2201W 22" Widescreen LCD http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/382087-382087-64283-72270-3884469-3949223.html?jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN The monitor looks ok to me. However, I've never had to select a monitor for a security desk. I would like to make sure that the monitor is ok before we purchase ten of them. Any comments and \or advice would be appreciated. Thank you very much. Rober Robert

I am posting to request comments on the possibility of using wireless cameras in the 4000 sq. ft. clubhouse of my condo building instead of the wired cameras currently planned for installation in that space. The clubhouse is being rennovated. The space was completely gutted and is now being in the process of being built-out. Work on the building is expected to be completed in late July. Soon, conduit will be installed for about six security cameras that will be placed in the clubroom and gym. I would like to consider using wireless cameras to save the cost of conduit, wiring\connecting. I would also like the flexability to be able to add cameras in the future without needing to run cable. Today, I began wondering if wireless cameras will work in this space. A wireless access point is planned for the clubroom so we already are putting wireless in the building. Thanks to all the great advice and input I have received in these forums, we are installing a property-wide IP camera system that I think will pretty great. The system will be supported by two redundant Cisco 3750 switches in the main tech room and a Cisco 2960 switch in each of two other locations on the property. Wireless access points are being installed in the main lobbies, the clubhouse and at two or three exterior areas around the property. I would really like to use some wireless cameras in the interior spaces if there are wireless cameras that perform as well or better than fixed wired cameras. Are wireless cameras even something I should consider having installed or are wired cameras always better in security systems? I know that Cisco makes wireless cameras but I do not know anyone who has ever used them. (Not that the wireless cameras would have to be made my Cisco.) Thank you. As always, I sincerely appreciate everyone's help and advice. Rob

OK. I will stay with wired cameras in the clubhouse. Thanks for the advice. Rob

As a follow-up. the monitors we will use are: Five HP ZR22w 21.5" monitors for each of the lobby desks. http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&objectID=c02000523&jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN#A0 Link to detailed monitor specifications http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?objectID=c02000657 The monitors support DVI. They cost about $350 which is about $100 more than the original monitors but, in addition to having DVI inputs , the monitors have a higher resolution and are height adjustable. Thank you for the help on this, Matt. Rob

Matt, Thank you very much for catching that the monitors are VGA-in only. I totally missed that. I definitely want the monitors to be connected DVI. I will try to find a monitor that accepts both composite and DVI inputs. If such a monitor is not available at a reasonable price, I will find an adaptor. Rob

(I hope I am posting this in the correct forum.) Our security company would like to charge us the costs I have listed below to install access control equipment for my condominium Association. Are these charges reasonable or are they excessive? If the costs are not reasonable, what would be considered reasonable? I would really appreciate everyone's advice. With parking garage gates and doors, we have 28 points of install for the access control system on our property. The system will be controlled by the security guards using a workstation in the lobby. There are also costs for the access control server hardware and software licenses, but I have not listed those here. (Although I am happy to do that if someone would like to see that info.) The security company is proposing: 40% mark-up from wholesale cost on all hardware\equipment 25% markup on wholesale cost of wire ($20,625 total) $300 per wire pull ($15,000 total) $297.50 "trim labor" to install hardware on doors ($14,875 total) $125 an hour to configure (165 hrs\$20,625 total. That averages out to about $425 per point of install)) Here are some detailed cost examples: Example 1: Vehicular entry gate to guest parking 1 - RF Receiver, Wholesale price $230 \ $320 our price 1 - DCD Board - wholesale price $315 \ $440 our price Cable pull - $300 Trim labor - $297.50 Configuration (3 hours at $125 an hour) - $425 Total equipment cost for guest parking entry gate: $760 Total labor cost for guest parking entry gate: $1,022.50 Grand Total for guest parking entry gate: $1,782.50 Example 2: Guard Room 1 - Card Reader, Wholesale price $230 \ $320 our price 1 - DCD Board - wholesale price $315 \ $440 our price 1 - Door Hardware - ELEC Egress Hardware and Hinge - Wholesale $740 \ $1,040 our price 1 - Door ajar contact - Wholesale price $11.45 \ $16.00 our price Cable pull - $300 Trim labor - $297.50 Configuration (3 hours at $125 an hour) - $425 Total equipment cost for guard room door: $1,816 Total euipment cost for guard room door: $16.00 Total labor cost for guard room door: $1,022.50 Grand Total for guard room door: $2,838.50 Example 3 Exterior Door to Fire Stairwell 1 - Door ajar contact - Wholesale price $11.45 \ $16.00 our price Cable pull - $300 Trim labor - $297.50 Configuration (3 hours at $125 an hour) - $425 Total equipment cost for guard room door: $16.00 Total labor cost for guard room door: $1,022.50 Grand Total for guard room door: $1,038.50 When installing security systems, how is cabling labor typically charged? Is it charged by the run or by the foot, etc? Would pulling two cables in the same conduit at the same time typically be charged at double the price of pulling on cable in a conduit? I am happy to provide additional detail or clarification. Thank you very much. Rob

Does a supervised strike cost a lot more than a normal strike to buy and\or to install? It sounds like a great idea. I never even thought about the possibility of someone preventing a door from locking by taping the strike back. Rob

Thank you tomcctv. That's very nice of you to say. The progress I have made with my building's system design would never have happened without all the great input that you and others on this site have so generously provided. I am sincerely appreciative. Rob

Anything is possible, but why would you want this? Fire alarm systems are separate standalone systems that are complex enough without integrating them into questionable quality CCTV/access systems.. If you feel the need to have total monitoring you can have remote satellite annunciator panels installed at key locations by your fire alarm company, which you probably already have. The other question is the fire alarm system remotely or locally monitored? . Simplex and Edwards makes some really nice annunciators. Tailbone, I asked about the fire alarm system integrating with the security system because our building will be replacing our fire panel sometime in the next couple of years. Our building was built in 1983 and the fire panel is the original panel installed at that time. I want to make sure that I should not be having the security company install some conduit, cabling, some device, etc., now for future use with a new fire panel. I am having a conduit run from the room where the fire panel is located to the main tech room. The main tech room will contain the servers for the camera and access control system as well as the main panels for the access control. I am assuming if any connection has to be made between the fire panel and the access control system that it would have to be made between the fire panel room and the main tech room. I don't have any interest in connecting the access control or camera systems to the the fire panel. I just want to make sure that I'm not missing something or neglecting to install something that should be installed that is not on the plans. But from what you and others have written, it sounds like I don't need to worry about installing additional equipment to make any current or future access control to fire system connection. (Other than what is required by current Code and the security company should understand how to handle that.) Rob

Thank you, Scorpion. That is very interesting and I will make sure that our system has the doors properly timed. Do access control systems integrate with fire systems? Is it possible for fire alarms to appear on access control displays? Rob

I appreciate all the good advice. Here is the current situation. The security company, which is very reputable and stable, has wanted to use access control software from Millennium that does not currently integrate with ExacqVision, the software that will be used to control all the cameras. http://www.exacq.com/products/vms_software.html Not only does Millennium not integrate with Exacq, it does not offer a map\graphical view of alarms. Therefore, we are not going to use Keyscan System VII. We have about twenty-three doors and three gates. Keyscan seems like it will meet our needs. We need to use Exacq because Ioimage cameras are being used on our perimeter and we need camera software that will work with these cameras. We are using the Ioimage PTZs and their wdc100dn fixed cameras. http://www.exacq.com/products/vms_software.html I talked to the security company about installation charges. We did not talk about pricing in detail, but they now understand that while we are willing to pay good money for quality work, we are not going to pay costs that are too high. I think that the costs will be worked out. I am less worried about that. All the good advice I have read on this forum and all the generous help everyone has given and continues to give me is terrific. Today, I talked to someone at Keyscan and he told me that our guards can run the client software using a browser if we pay for an $800 module. That is great because it will save us from having to pay our security company to install and configure the client software. All we have to do is start a browser and, assuming it has been configured, the software will work. The management office will have the actual Keyscan software installed on a workstation. Today, I asked the Keyscan rep what common mistakes people make when then design a Keyscan system. He said that many people do not install door contacts because they don't want to pay the installer to do that. However, as all of you certainly know but I did not know, without a door contact on a door, the guards can't tell if a door closes after someone opens it with a key fob, etc. The Keyscan rep said that the door can look like it is closed on camera, but the door might not latch properly or something like that. A properly installed card reader can sense that the door is open. I realize all of you know that but to an amateur like me, these details are very interesting. The rep said that many people end up spending a lot of money to have the installers come back and install the contacts. Rob

No, they are just pulling a single cable for a door contact. The door is an exterior fire stairwell door. The door contact is being installed to make sure the no one leaves it open. Other than a door contract, no other equipment will be installed on the door. The security company says that because their $1,000+ price (plus the cost of the wire) includes configuring the device in the security system, training the staff on how to monitor it, etc. that the price is justified. Rob

Scorpion, I understand the point that you are making. I assure you that I am in no way trying to get the system installed on the cheap. I am happy to pay well for excellent work. We solicted three bids for the security system (camera and access control). The bids were from three excellent South Florida security companies. The bids ranged from about $300K to $400K. That pricing included an analog camera system running coax. In analyzing the bids, I found that the camera prices were marked up 300% to 400% in some cases. These are the prices they have been charging (and, during the boom, getting) to all condos in south florida. We selected one of the companies and began to work to refine the pricing and the systems. I had the company move the system to IP and we are now using Ioimage video analytic cameras on the perimeter. The cost for this much-improved system is actually less than the cost of the original analog system. However, the company is still making a very good profit. Regarding the cable pricing, the cost of the cable is additional. Their markup on the cable is 25%. We are using plenum where appropriate. The camera system is being cabled with cat6. The access control system is being cabled with the appropriate cable for each piece of equipment. In my corporate life, I would pay a company about $400 to supply and run a cat6 cable in existing conduit connecting the cable to a tech plate or card reader, etc. and then punching the cable down to the rack in the tech room. That pricing does not include configuring the new device into the system. Based on that pricing, for the security company to want to charge about $1,100 to install and configure a door contact at my condo building seem very high. The conduit already exists and has pull strings. We are willing to pay for the expertise that is required to install the system, but we expect to be treated fairly. (And the company working with us has every right to expect the same in return.) I just think that paying about $1,100 (cable costs additional) to install a door contact is too much. Am I totally off-base in thinking that? Rob

How does an access control system open a door? If someone could explain that to me, I would appreciate it. When someone scans a card or key fob on a door reader does a signal run on one wire to the server or other master device to determine if the card or fob is valid and then send a signal back on another wire to the door strike release allowing the door to open? As I correct in thinking that the door needs a card reader, some piece of hardware that replaces the strike plate and a power supply to make the strike plate mechanism releases the door when a valid card or key fob is scanned? Or are there additional pieces of hardware that are required? If a door has an electric opener, does the "open" signal both release the strike or mag lock and also activate the motor that opens the door? If a security guard would like to use access control software to remotely open a door is any additional hardware required for that door? For example, if a guard located on one floor would like to release a door to a conference room on the floor above, can he or she just click some button on the access control software console and open the door? Does a door have to have some special additional hardware to allow the door lock to released remotely using the access control software or can any door that opens with a card or fob be remotely released by a guard using software? A final question... Why are mag locks used? Are they used because they cannot be picked\because they are so hard to open? Or are they used for double doors, etc? Thank you very much. Robert

Matt, Thank you for the detailed answers. They were very helpful. In our condo we are getting close to the point where we will have to make decision about signing a contract withh the security vendor. At this point, I feel that we may get a better product by hiring sub-contractors ourselves. In that I am very knowledgeable about computer networks, for the camera systems, I don't need the security company to do anything other than connect the cameras to the network switches and power supply, mount and position the cameras correctly and configured the client software on the guard workstations in the lobby. I don't reall understand all the pieces of the access control system so we would definitely need to re-bid out that portion of work. We have all the plans though so getting bids should be pretty easy. I think. I looked at your website and say the http://www.3xlogic.com/xview info. Do the large panaramic images move in real time just like regular video? How much would the hardware and software cost that would be needed to support a space like the supermarket they show in the exanple? I would like put this product in the driveway of our condo. I am going to read the info in much greater detail tomorrow. Rob

I read the documentation for eMerge. It sounds like a great system. Very interesting architecture that makes a lot of sense in its simplicity. Do you know if Millenium Access Control products communicate with the server whenever a key fob is scanned to open a door, etc? I like that eMerge does not have to communicate with a server to validate each entry. I called the IEI Sales Department in California. I am playing phone tag with them but learning a lot through the voice mails. eMerge 5000 support elevators, contractor badges and gates so I think that is everything our condo would need. I really like that the system is managed through a browser. Are there any other access control companies that you would suggest I look into? Thank you very much for suggesting I look at IEI. Rob

I am posting to request input about the Access Control system that our security company is proposing for our condo building. They are recommending Millenium hardware and a software product called "Community Secure" also from Millenium. http://www.communitysecure.com/default.asp?LINKNAME=CS-SYSTEMS-OVERVIEW Since the original proposal a couple of months ago, at my urging, our new camera system has evolved from an analog system to an IP system that will use video analytic (Ioimage) cameras for the building perimeter. (I work with computer networks so it makes sense to me to have an IP-based system.) The proposed camera control software will be Exacqvision VMS software. Currently, Millenium Community Secure software does not integrate with the Exacqvision software or any other software that will support the Ioimage cameras. Therefore, the security company is planning access control and camera systems will run on two different servers and viewing the video associated with an event in the access control system will be a two-step process. The security company feels that a two-step process is not a big deal. I disagree. I would like the camera and access control software to be integrated so that one can click on an event like a key fob opening a door and view the video of the event. We are spending hundreds of thousands on our security system and I feel that access control and camera systems should be integrated. Is it normal to keep the access control and camera systems separate. That does not make a lot of sense to me. The security company has installed Millenium hardware and software in other condos in Miami and so they are very familiar with it. They also feel that Community Secure has features that are unique to condos like the ability to have the lobby guards control the elevators. (Although, our elevators are older and are not on cards access so this feature is not yet relevant.) I would sincerely appreciate everyone's thoughts and input on the access control hardware and software. Is it possible for access control systems to be IP-based? If so, is there any value to this? I am really starting to question using Millenium. I am particularily concerned about the Community Secure software product. Even the website for the product seems poorly thought out. Thank you very much. Rob