habarraclough

Thanks for the great explanation! Understandable and concise and non-judgemental, - I really appreciate it. You've confirmed what I suspected happened, without my knowing all the technicalities of how it happened. Thank you again.

When you have a camera that's rated at 600tvl (811x508p) or 700tvl (976x582p) and a DVR that can only record at D1 (704x480p), what is the actual resolution/size of the image being being recorded? I know that the high resolution cameras look great on the monitor, but playback can only be at the lower resolution because that's all that it is possible to record. What happens to the "excess" pixels the camera is sending to the DVR? Is it true that any camera over 540tvl (768x494p) is a waste of money because of the limitations of DVRs? Can someone who really knows explain this please? I don't need responses touting IP cameras and megapixels at me, - I'm trying to understand the hand I've been dealt and not the one I wish I had.

Thanks. I guess it's cheapest and easiest to go and buy another DVD player on sale at BestBuy or WalMart. $60 or so, and unlike the laptop it's no really big deal if it gets knocked off the ladder (again).

I've found that the best and cheapest service monitor is a portable DVD Player (the same thing you buy to keep the kids quiet on a road trip), available for $60 to $120. They usually come with an "A/V Cable" which has a BNC (male) connector. I've been using one for years. And the added bonus is you can watch a movie while you eat lunch. I was just wondering about the availability of a cheap BNC to USB adaptor, but I guess the 75ohm to ?ohm conversion makes them expensive and bulky.

Check your cable ends (connections) - perhaps the BNCs are shorting or not properly screwed/crimped on. Check your power supply at the camera - depending on how long the cable is and what you're using as a power supply you could be either not providing enough amperage or experinecing power drop over the cable length. If I was to make a guess, I'd bet it's a power issue.

I've been using a portable 7" DVD Player as a Service Monitor when up on a ladder installing cameras, but it's crapped out and needs replacing. I have a "Dell Mini" laptop that I rarely use, and figure that would work great if I could only find a way to make the PC (USB) accept the BNC output from the cameras somehow. Any ideas anyone? "I wish I was a firefly, - I wouldn't be so glum, 'Cos how can you be grumpy When the sun shines out your bum?" - Anonymous

edit by mod-please read the rules regarding soliciting viewtopic.php?f=56&t=3144

Figured I'd answer my own post since I see there have been over 50 views but no answers. I took the plunge and replaced the drives with Western Digital 1Tb "AV" drives (Audio/Video specific - engineered for 24/7 performance). It was easy and painless, and the systems came right back up and recognised them - been running trouble-free for about 2 weeks now. So, if you're wondering too, go ahead. But make sure you buy AV HDDs!

Effio-E is (650TVL) lower-end version of Effio and it lacks alot of key features from Effio like WDR, TDN, Dual-scan CCD, Face Detection, 3D DNR, and etc., and is very high-lux(0.1) since it lacks ESS.Will probably fit in between 500TVL's cameras and high-end 650-700TVL Cameras but most people looking for EFFIO will probably look for High-end features like WDR, TDN, 3D DNR, low-lux, AGC, ESS and stuff. There are a lot of choices for 600-650TVL cameras if you don't need all those features. I'm not really sure how Effio-E will compete in the market but so far Effio-P definately gets more interest. Hope this helped. Huviron - not sure where your info about Effio-E is coming from, but "it ain't necessarily so". We have arange of Effio-E's with WDR, Day/Night Low Lux (0.01lux @F1.2), OSD, ATR, etc. Not 3D DNR, only 2D though. It's all in the overall chipset (CXD4127+CXD4816+ICX673AK/IC672AK).

Anybody out there have any experience with upgrading (replacing) the HDD in a SymSafe Pro? I have 2 new units with 320Gb drives that I want to replace with 1Tb because I'm going to max them out with 16 cameras each in a 20-hour-a-day operation for a customer that expects at least a week of high resolution and high frame rate. I have no problem swapping out the drive (the manual says they autoformat), but at over $2,500 each I'm reluctant to open them up unless I'm sure I know what I'm doing. The spec sheets claim that the drives are "Video Specific", but that sounds like marketing BS so you'll buy the drives from GE at inflated prices. Physically they supposedly are standard SATA drives but ...................... ? Anyone have first hand experience with this?

Sitting here reading your posts and realized that you guys are SO defensive! (Also quite insulting.) I started my business after retiring from planning, configuring and selling financial institution electronic and physical security systems for over 20 years, and prior to that for 20+ years as a banker. I began configuring FI surveillance systems when all we had to offer was 35mm film cameras, then b/w low res on VCRs, and eventually digital. I'm completely familiar with, and have sold a crapload of, stuff like Lanex/Verint, March and 3VR with cameras from Dallmeier, Ganz, and many others. I helped in developing the FBI's "recommendations" when they first permitted the use of VCRs and analog cameras. I've designed, sold and installed systems for well over 250 bank and CU branches over the years - I know the business, and I know the equipment. We tried to get some of our bigger customers (BofA, 5th/3rd, BB&T, Wachovia) interested in 8-megapixel 180-degree IP panoramic cameras for teller lines - made sense for many reasons - but without success because they couldn't justify the cost/benefit. The research required to make those presentations meant I had to "kinda know" what the hell I was talking about. When I started my business I started out trying to sell the same stuff to retail/commercial that I was familiar with, and had sold to FIs. I quickly realized that I was getting nowhere, and wouldn't be able to make a living unless I began to compete in the "low end" market. Is what the majority of what I sell now "inferior" to the high-end stuff I grew up with? - sure it is, but again, to make a living in this business in this economy, it's all about the cost/benefit/available budget equation. All this insulting "your stuff is crap", "you don't know jack", "you're selling junk" discussion came somehow out of my original innocent and honest question about how to (maybe) make a big honking DVRL into an NVR so I can get it off my books. I didn't expect to become, nor will I continue to be, the brunt of y'alls insults and venom, and I see no reason for any of it. Have a wonderful life, y'all - if you can make a good living selling your high-end stuff good for you! - I hope you continue to be able to. I'm simply a small business owner, making a living by performing a service for other small businesses on tight budgets, getting them something they can afford so that they at least have SOME degree of protection. I see no reason for me to continue to read your pompous insulting diatribes.

Well of course guys! In a perfect world where all budgets are unlimited and all customers are technogeeks you make great arguments. For the guy who has a 50-mile round trip to work every day, the grocery store at weekends, a family vacation a couple of times a year and a limited budget, should we try and justify to him that he should buy a Mercedes CLS550 or a Hyundai Sonata? Both will get him where he's going, are similarly good-looking, and have a nice ride with lots of creature comforts. The Sonata gets better gas mileage (and on regular not premium), costs less for insurance and repairs (a lot less, believe me), has a better warranty, and furthermore if it gets a door ding in the parking lot you freak out a lot less. The CLS550 does go faster though (I own one of each). But he can buy 3 Sonatas for the price of the one CLS that he can't (or won't) afford. I sell in the real world, to independent retail businesses - convenience stores, daycares, car lots, jewelry stores, etc.. It's tough nowadays to get them to spend ANY money, let alone a ton of it. So if I have to replace an odd camera now and then, or very rarely even a DVR - so what? I give a one-year replacement warranty and replacements cost me very little but get me great "attaboys" for responsive no-argument customer service. Do most of my customers/prospects want "HDTV" costing 5x more? - hell no - they just want to see who did what IF something happens. Soundy - your camera placements are crap. It's impossible to ID anyone in the wine store in either picture, and is the bar camera meant to be a 'cleavage cam'? - if not, why so high and at such a steep angle? I sell a pedestal-mounted covert "pillar camera" which blends into the environment on the retail countertop - it contains a WDR Pixim Sens-Up pinhole lens unit 1.4"x1.4"x0.5" in a custom housing - which could even be made to look like a beer tap (or a bubblegum rack or an advertising sign). It gives customer face shots at 3ft distance from 56"aff. Is that "crap" too? The name of the game is getting reasonably good identification and environment pictures, within or under customer budget, for small businesses who know they need surveillance but see it as an expense they can't really afford. From time to time I do sell "high end" stuff - a GE SymSafe 16+2 Hybrid with Ganz cameras, or a March Systems, or a Verint, or even a 3VR with facial recognition, and "name brand" or WDR Pixim cameras as customer needs/wants dictate and as they can afford it. Don't discount the inexpensive Asian cameras and DVRs as "crap" just because they don't have a name you recognise - hell, the GE SymSafes are made in Taiwan! Sure, power supplies and fans and boards are "beefier" - but at 10x the price (my cost)? Not affordable for most of my customers anyway. And just as a snide defensive by-the-way - do you have PMS today?

I hear you, but my understanding is like this: Compare a 16-camera system, IP and Analog. A simple progressive scan PoE IP 1mp dome camera from my Asian manufacturer runs about $175, but I can get a similar analog 520tvl dome (with IR capability thrown in) for less than $40 - so the cost difference for cameras alone is about $2,200. Then, a good H.264 16-camera DVR with TWO 1Tb drives costs me about $300 - less than just the software costs I've seen for an NVR, let alone the hardware. As far as storage, I think that 16 x 1.0mp cameras streaming at 30fps will require just over 8Tb of storage for 1 week (?), while my 2x1Tb drives on the DVR will store the same stream for over 2 MONTHS. Bandwidth for the IP system, if I understand it right, will require over 83mbps, plus another 83mbps to stream it out to a client application - that will crash most networks I've seen in typical small businesses. If you network my DVR you get the same benefits without the heartache. And as to PoE:- I compare CAT5 with 2 x 12v10a 9-port power supplies and baluns (my balun + power supply cost is about $350) to CAT5 and a switch with PoE capability - a Cisco 24-port PoE switch costs about $800 and only puts out 7.5watts per port. I'm told that each IP camera requires about 10-12 watts, (not including power for the IRs if they have them) so what do you do for the rest of the power? My 1.25amps per camera from the 2 power supplies is plenty for even the most long-range (300+ft) IR camera. Anyway it's an academic discussion I know, but I just don't see where anyone can come even close to a system-to-system equipment cost comparison (from an installer's cost point of view) - I just can't get excited about IP systems. If there were significant benefits for the average user I could try and make a case, but I don't see the benefits let alone being able to sell them. And yes, I often use CAT5e or CAT6 with baluns for long camera runs in an analog system - more delicate to pull, but fewer power drop and signal noise issues.

Thanks Matt - the idea of a hybrid box sounds intriguing. Keeping 8-channel analog and adding another 8 or more of IP (like a GE SymSafe "+2" box on steroids) would be really cool, - I wish I knew more techie stuff, and also had more time to mess with it. So far I'm totally unimpressed and unconvinced about the whole IP/NVR solution to video surveillance - unless it's a huge and widely dispersed client with 50+ cameras in a half-dozen locations like a school system or something, I just don't see the benefits vs the downsides of initial cost, increased storage needs, bandwidth issues and the PoE inadequacies for PTZ or IR cameras. Maybe I'll just try to find the DVRL a home as-is - sell it as part of a system for a convenience store where I can make up the cost differential between it and a cheaper H.264 DVR by using cheaper cameras with easier less labor-intensive cable pulls. Thanks again.

Here's the full spec (from an ad I placed on eBay to sell it) - OS is Linux 2.6 This DVR SERVER (not to be confused with typical home/small business DVRs) is NEW and unused and in original packaging. It has been opened and tested but never placed in service. Originally planned for a new branch of a national store chain which never got built, it is now excess to our requirements. Unit weight = 10.44 Kilos (23lbs) – Shipping weight is 12.2 Kilos (27lbs) List price is $1,799 – never discounted below $1,299 – we will sell for $1,099. Features: • IDE Interface Linux Embedded on DOM • 8 Channel (expandable to 16) • Commercial grade network Linux Data Rack Mount DVR (can be tabletop) • User access is controlled by the Administrator, with multiple user and security levels • May be completely controlled/operated over the network without local involvement • Complete remote-site monitoring, playback, video clip export, and set-up functions through Windows IE browser – no extra software is necessary • True real-time 240fps recording/playback (30fps/camera) • 300Gb HDD (may be increased/replaced) • Built-in CD/RW Drive • USB Ports for Memory Card, Flash Drive, External HDD, etc. • Local control is by Mouse and Keyboard • Cabinet is secure heavy gauge steel with a key-locking front panel • Video Input = D-Type BNC Adaptor – 2 Cards (room for 2 more) • Video resolution = 720x480 • Hue, Saturation, Brightness, Contrast are adjustable by camera • Flexible recording control per camera:- Continuous, Scheduled, Motion Detection, Digital Input, Pre-Alarm, Cyclic Overwrite • Compression = MPEG4 S/W Codec • Separate MPEG-4 encoder for fast network remote surveillance • Quick video search by Date, Time, Camera, Events, Tag or Motion • Alarm event notification on screen, by Email, Telephone, Mobile Phone, Fax, and Digital Relay Output • Built-In Hardware Watchdog – Auto reboot resumes record mode after power fail/restore • Self-diagnostic functions for video loss, system abnormal, and HDD Crash • PTZ Control for Pelco-D, Pelco-P, Lilin, VIDO, SAE, Dynacolor, Kalatel, Nicecam and Panasonic