jim1274

I've perused the forum and looked at MANY online products and suppliers--time to get some feedback/advice from the pros before pulling the trigger and ordering my equipment. I'll try to group this under logical topics--here we go (my most critical immediate advice need is in wiring section--have walls ready to close-up in a major remodel, and need to get wires run ASAP--other equipment can be addressed/finalized as I move along): System goals: This CCTV system is intended to be a compliment to my home alarm system with primary purpose as an intrusion deterrent and secondary as a means to monitor mainly the front door when home (and interior status when not home if/when indoor cameras are installed). I am willing to pay a premium for ease of use in general and remote viewing function/secure operation. Application environment: I'm in the midwest and subject to extremes of temperature. All my cable runs are under 100', most in the 50' or less range. This is a ranch style residential home and my primary goal is to monitor and protect my 6 cats--property protection is secondary. Budget: I am looking for the maximum value price point, and while I do not have a set budget, my research suggests the following proposed system can be purchased somewhere in the $1200 range ($400 DVR--4 cams for $600--PS and wiring for $200) for a decent quality system. I am willing to pay more if warranted. General system components: My initial install plan is for 4 outdoor cameras, with a 5th one potentially, and possibly 2 or 3 indoor cameras (if I am convinced that remote viewing is secure--last thing I want is the "bad guys" looking at what is going on inside!) That suggests an 8 channel DVR, but want to at least consider a 16 channel option to provide for future or unanticipated needs. Outdoor cameras: I'm looking at the CNB 24V series cameras, but still need to determine the best specific models. CNB seems to be a solid choice from forum research, and the non-IR true night/day cameras in general seem to be the way to go (the 4 primary outdoor outdoor locations all have motion sensor lights illuminating the camera view areas from either the side, rear, or both--only my 5th optional outdoor location lacks motion light support) There were a few other brands from my (current) prospective vendor that seemed to be worthy of consideration, but CNB seemed like the safest choice. Indoor cameras: Unless I can verify that remote viewing of indoor cameras is secure, I'm not adding any. If I do, probably a CNB model. Is there a secure remote viewing option? DVR: This has proven to be more difficult to select than the cameras. From what I have read in the forum, a stand-alone DVR seems to be the better option as opposed to a DVR card in my computer. The latter was tempting as I have a spare computer looking for a purpose, but it is a 6 or 7 year old rig and the DVR option seemed to be the easiest in terms in use. From forum research, I found these brands/models that seemed to be potential entry level candidates: CNB HDE2412 Dahua DH-DVR0804LE-A (or the DH-DVR1604LE-A if going 16 channel for future needs--seems like a good option for $100 more) Avtech: This seemed like a solid brand from forum comments, but did not appear to be many vendors, at least in US. Cantek and Nuvico: These were the primary ones bundled in systems by the vendor I am leaning toward using, but could not find much forum info on these brands. I'm wondering if a hybrid with analog and IP capability is a smart move to "future proof" my system?? I don't see a need for 16 channels, but may be another good "future proof" move over 8 channels if the incremental cost is modest. The only other DVR question is WHERE to put it. Since it does not seem to be critical to try and harden and/or hide it, the choice would appear to be best and most efficient location from an operational perspective...leading into... Monitoring: This ties in with the DVR location, and I'm thinking one of two options. I have a utility closet area (wide open now during remodel) that has conduits and/or access to the camera locations. My main monitor position is in the kitchen (centrally located), so I'd need to get a video feed (21" TV there has a VGA input) back to that location (plus a monitor back at the DVR location for control ease??? Have a 32" won in a raffle just gather dust that would be good to use if possible). It seems that better DVR's have multiple/flexible video out options--see some have VGA and HDMI outputs--hoping both could be "hot" at same time(?) Remote viewing: I'd like to have a solution that allows viewing in a browser and on a Blackberry and/or IPhone platform (have a blackberry now, but am looking at going to IPhone). Ease of use and set-up would be a big plus... Power supply: I see now that there are 12 and 24V supplies in both AC and DC--still need to figure what the AC and DC option is all about. I'm thinking a dual 12/24V PS is the way to go to cover any camera voltage needs? Wiring: This is the most time critical decision/spec. My remodel guy has pulled off the job until I give him a wiring diagram for the CCTV system--I need to figure this out ASAP. It seems there are 3 basic options: Siamese only, CAT 5 only, or both. I'm leaning toward both, using the Siamese now and having the CAT 5 ready for a future IP camera, but see the CAT 5 is capable of both with baluns. I may use cameras with heaters, so the CAT 5 may not be the best given power draw and voltage drop, but have not analyzed the numbers. Is going with both the prudent move, or am I wasting time/money as opposed to just installing only the CAT 5 given my runs are relatively short? I THINK this covers most of the bases---comments and advice would be MUCH appreciated! I'm trying to design an alarm system and absorb the NEC, among other things, concurrently with this project--could REALLY use some experienced pro help to keep my mind from getting fried with too much more research.

Yeah, probably not the best bet for speaker-level audio... but for line-level, no problem. We do this on fuel sites, where the DVR goes in an electrical room and they want to monitor/control it from the office. The extenders we use include a set of "console" ports on the "local" module, so you can have a keyboard/monitor/mouse AT the machine, and another set at the "remote" module at other end of a Cat5 cable. On the sites that use separate NVR and HD Viewer machines, we hook the inputs of the extender to a KVM switch as well, to toggle between machines. The only limitation to most of these extenders (well, all of them I've looked at so far) is that they don't do regular USB (even the ones for USB keyboard/mouse, ONLY work with keyboard/mouse)... but there are separate USB-over-UTP extenders as well, so with a second Cat5 run, you can bring your USB ports to your remote console as well. I'll definitely run an extra Cat5 to every place I can reach that might be a potential remote viewing AND control point. These Cat5's are pretty versatile cables to have available just about ANYWHERE!

There shouldn't be an issue with interference - the balun (BALanced/UNbalanced) concept itself is inherently resistant to EMI/induced noise. Note that you can use Cat5 for your monitor return runs as well (you can run four video signals over that one wire, in fact). Audio can also be run over Cat5, with the appropriate baluns. In fact, there are baluns/transceivers/extenders available to run just about any sort of signal you want over Cat5 - VGA, component, HDMI/DVI (those are kinda spendy though), audio, even KVM (remote keyboard/video/mouse). I think the only type I HAVEN'T seen is for CATV/MATV (cable/antenna TV RF signals), although I'm sure they exist. Even the alarm system can use the Cat5 (although alarm guys generally don't like it - they think it's too flimsy/brittle... I think they're just too brute-force on it ) The problem with most 12VDC-only cameras, unless they have a built-in regulator, is that the video and power share a common ground... when you add a pair of baluns, you're inserting several hundred feet of extra wire (the transformer coils) into both sides of the signal path, which then creates multiple different-length ground paths for each camera (via the power ground and the video ground)... and that often leads to ground-loop issues when you're using a power can where the cameras all share the same ground connection. There are two ways around this, if you're using 12VDC: use cameras with built-in regulators or dual-voltage cameras, or use a power source with isolated grounds for each camera. A central power can like that gets REALLY spendy... the alternative is individual wall-wart power supplies for each camera. Personally, therefore, I'd plan for a 24VAC central can, and try to spec dual-voltage or 24VAC cameras if at all possible. If you DO find you need one or two specific cameras that are 12VDC-only, you can use wall-warts for those, or as I say, slap a inside your power can (power it off one of the 24VAC channels) to feed those cameras. Never hurts to plan ahead - as my co-worker says, "I'd rather be looking at it, than looking for it!" Oh boy, that comment on all the uses for Cat5 REALLY got my wheels turning--this could create a monster! I'll be studying baluns now...buying another big spool of Cat5... I already have some 14/2 speaker wire runs (Cat5 is too small a wire size for speaker outs unless you parallel several pairs, but it would work in a pinch) in for a small distributed audio system (had to throw that in the mix), but am definitely going to look at running some line outs from my stereo to feed to the audio rigs in other rooms, especially my garage/pool-patio area receiver. The monitor returns capability is important too as in a perfect world I'd want to be able to switch to an aux vid input on any TV and seem my cameras. (I KNOW my budget is busted big time now...) That KVM comment was also helpful--I see now that there are options to having my DVR keyboard and mouse back at the DVR location. VERY helpful to at least know what the options are. I actually considered the CAT5 for my short wired alarm runs, but have a spool of 22/4 on hand now for that. I am the "alarm guy" on this project too, and my "installer-of-all-things" (not me!) is very skilled and never uses brute force. I thought that my alarm DIY going on concurrently with this was going to be more difficult to figure out, but this CCTV system is proving to be far more complex to get right, but the alarm is not progressing as fast as this yet, so I may have to eat my words (on complexity) after the alarm pros in another forum weigh in. Power supply: I'll definitely try to get cameras that run on 24V based on your further comments. I'm guessing most of the better ones are 24 or 12/24 dual. I love this forum!

I opted not to include the whole post quote from Rory's detailed response--hope that is proper and OK--seemed better to edit down: Yes the CNB are a decent choice for your budget. Adding more visible light is always better than IR anyway if possible - get a better image, and can go Color at night with enough light. If you choose to use IR then blast it with IR - not cheap though. Couple things to look at also though, the Monalisa CNB domes do not have a way to control the OSD (camera settings) other than being right at the camera. This means that if you want to change a setting after installation, like you might want to turn the AGC level up or down or adjust the Gamma, or the SBLC, then you would need to climb the ladder and remove the cover and go at it. If however you got one of their cameras with the RS485 connection you could run cat5 to that and then control the OSD as you would a PTZ, from the DVR or the software, locally or remotely. That said only a few of their Domes come with that RS485 option in North America, the Blue-i ones like the 34VF models, which are not as low light as the Monalisas, or most of their Box cameras including the Monalisa Box cameras - but these require housings for outside. One thing if you use a box camera you can then use an Aspherical lens which is not available with the Domes (that I know of), meaning the edges on a wide angle 2.8mm lens view will be clear and not blurry - set to that wide on the domes in most cases at least one side will have a little blur. The decent IR corrected Aspherical lenses are not cheap though, cost is more than half the price of the Monalisa Box camera - but this would be the better image - additionally the lens I speak of is a 3-8mm and has an F stop of 1.0 where as the Domes are 2.8-10.5 and F 1.4, so you would see a little more in low light, sacrificing some of the lens range - I find most times the domes can only be set from around 3mm anyway possibly due to backfocus/camera/lens design issues. Depends on the DVR, you may be able to add cameras per user, so for a user setup for remote video you would just enable the outdoor cameras - depends on the DVR. For example with the Dahua DVRs, you can deselect/select cameras in the User Account setup. Same with Geovision and many other DVRs. Yes that old rig would be too old, would need a new computer if you choose a DVR card. Not only due to hardware issues you may find with the older hardware, such as failing hard drives or even a bad motherboard, but newer software is designed on faster newer computers, and will generally run slow on older computer hardware. I used another variation of the CNB DVRs branded under another name, but by the same manufacturer, Indigo. Nice DVRs and solid, they work, software works, CMS GUI is fast and I even used their CMS for the other DVR as it worked better than the original manufacturer supplied software. But we had issues where the price was still too high for most of our clients here, slower recording rates and some limitations with the remote software such as less mobile phone support etc. But also no HDMI and that was a kicker after using it from another brand, for alot lower price. Still the CNBs are a solid DVR. Yes the Dahua's are a good choice for a budget DVR, and has many features some other higher end DVRs do not. Overall I am pleased with them so far, and selling them like lemonade right now, the price is so low and the product works. Also most of their units have HDMI which can be a plus. They also have support for almost every Mobile device you can think of, constant firmware and software updates fixing bugs or adding features, great support via their site or even email, and an SDK for developers available for download on their site. It could use better search features though, but for the price it has what is expected. Price is not much different from the Dahua's but is SO much more limited in features, also the quality of the local video is not that great, their network video quality is terrible. It was once a good price for a cheap DVR but we replaced them for the Dahuas which just literally blow them away now. Nuvico looks good but I never used them. The price is still too high for me, for that it has to be amazing, even Hybrid now, dont think they are. But if you have the money, they seem to be good, CMS software looks good also but I never tested it. As for Cantek, looks more like a 123 custom brand as we could never find the manufacturer's website. I cant take a chance on that, I need to know who makes them. Dont get me wrong, I use 123 and they are great, but I need direct support or contact with the manufacturer. Price is not low enough to make it worthwhile for me, I get the Dahua's for much less. If you plan to use the IR Remote control with the DVR, make sure it goes somewhere in the line of site so that will work. Most have built in IR so have limited options for that, if its an external IR then you can extend that to where you need to monitor it. IN the case of the Dahua it is built in, however it does come with a USB mouse so could always extend that if need be and use that instead of the IR Remote - quite possibly even replace that with a USB IR remote (havent tried that yet, commands would need to be programmed no idea if that is possible with the Dahua or other stand alones). I dont mean to sound like a broken record, but since you mentioned the brand, Dahua supports PC, IE, Mac, Nix, Iphone, Ipad, Android, Windows Mobile, and Blackberry. All under the downloads on their main website. Dual is nice but more expensive. But if that the way you want to go, yes Altronix have the Dual Power Supplies, or get 2 individual ones, up to you. If for example you only have 1x 12VDC camera then you could just get a 24VAC fused box then get a single plug in adapter for the 12VDC camera - in fact the retailer normally supplies this now a days for free (eg. 123). There are benefits to 24VAC as mentioned by Soundy, though I used it for years and am using mostly 12DC now, except on long runs over 200' (depends on the camera). If the runs will have enough space and you can afford it, then run both. BNCs are cheap. You can always utilize the cat5 at a later date. Headache over.

Thanks, soundy. 1. Cabling: I'm going with 2 Cat5's as I have a lot of it on hand and want a margin of safety for future need or cable failure. The siamese was not available locally anyway and I need to run wires today--you'd think places like Home Depot, Lowes, and such would have basic CCTV and alarm cable (no 22/4 available either). The only other thing I considered was running an 18/2 also for power, but decided that is overkill with 2 Cat5's available at each location. I don't have any runs even close to 100'. I can check this decision off the list! AN ASIDE QUESTION ON WIRING: I'm going to have all sorts of cables (alarm, CCTV, network, audio, and probably some type of CCTV video runs back to other monitor (s?)) run in my 5 conduits going every which way from the DVR and alarm location--should I be concerned about multiple camera, network, and alarm cables jammed into a conduit? I mean from the perspective of interference? I have one conduit that is going to be pretty tight--my cable "fill" is probably going to be 75% at least on this one. (did not anticipate adding CCTV to the alarm wiring at the time they were run) I could MAYBE upgrade this conduit from 3/4 to 1", but it is was a real tough install through a drywalled hall ceiling that had more than a few obstacles. 2. Power: Thanks for the clarification. Since I have not finalized the cameras, it seems prudent to wait and determine if any that are deployed only operate on 12V. If not, it seems using 24V is a no-brainer? 3. Remote-viewing security: I'll have to do more research on this and factor in when selecting the DVR. I really need to determine the level of security for remote viewing--that dictates whether I deploy cameras inside. I suppose the prudent thing is to just run the CAT5 to potential indoor locations so it will be there if needed. I'm running a lot of my cabling in conduit (I'm a conduit guy in all things wiring in general--have ripped out too many walls to get romex and BX pulled out to not be!)