dave2011

Yes, it would be helpful to compare the CNB VCM-24VF against other cameras such as the KT&C KPC-VDE101, Exelon VHN-V955, Vitek VTD-MVP2810DN, etc. Thanks for sharing your experience and prudence, Rory. Those are definitely important points to bear in mind and be guided by. After all, it’s more sales to manufacturers, distributors and resellers if they can get you to believe their product is most worth buying. The issues you brought up – compounded by the hundreds of camera products out there – indicate the need for a good source or clearinghouse that reviews and compares these different cameras. Something like what cnet.com does for electronics or pcmag.com does for computers or edmunds.com does for cars or consumers reports does for various consumer products. Reviews that both laymen and professionals would find helpful in choosing products. So if a manufacturer claims 0.0001 lux, the reviewer uses his lux meter to set up a 0.0001 environment (whether in a real field or suitcase) in which to test and verify whether the camera meets specs. I fully agree with what you said about being skeptical of manufacturer claims about specs and performance. As I said, I’m only a layman on security cameras, and knew nothing a few weeks ago. But I’m not too naive. For over 20 years, I’ve worked with engineers and best technical experts in various large manufacturing companies (more complex than camera component assembling) to understand and improve their production processes, products, manuals, training and strategies. I try to apply these principles when I add stuff into my own house. For example, before I changed my entire HVAC system, I first spoke with two senior engineers from rival manufacturers (York and Rheem) of the high efficiency modulating furnace, two stage air conditioners and other HVAC products I wanted in my system. I wanted to learn how they would buy these products if this was their own house. After that, I asked the most reputed HVAC contractors in my area for quotes. I found that even the HVAC contractor-owner who appears as 'the expert' on the famous “Holmes On Homes” home-renovations-gone-wrong TV show was wrong in what he did and said. He did not do a proper assessment, simply pushed his formula solution and did not apply the basics, even though he sounded very confident of what he said. After a quick walk through my house, he decided it needed a 90,000 BTU furnace and 4.5 ton AC based on his experience with my house size. That’s the wrong way to size these products, no matter how experienced he is. All these contractors failed the basic tests learned from the engineers. Ultimately I followed what the engineers said: did a proper heat loss and heat gain analysis of my house (which indicated I needed smaller products: a 60,000 BTU furnace and 3.5 ton AC). All the well-known contractors said the product sizes were too small for my house, while the engineers said it would be more than adequate based on the heat-loss, heat gain analysis (without even looking at my house). The engineers turned out to be right. What I had installed has worked perfectly, more efficiently and at lower operating cost. That was not the only issue, just one example. Of course, in this case the contractors were stuck in their formula solutions and familiar products, instead of doing the right thing in the field. So I guess the moral of the story is to find and learn from the technical experts who know what they are talking about before buying a product from dozens or hundreds of alternatives. Everybody has an opinion, and there's too much conflicting info out there. That's why it's so useful and helpful to have forums like this, where people from the field share their experiences.

From what I've found out, it seems the KT&C camera KPC-VDE101 (VDE200 adds heater) may be worth comparing to CNB's VCM-24VF. Here are the arguments, based on what I understood as a layman: KT&C is older and about twice as large as CNB in Korea. Most of KT&C's revenue is from OEM manufacturing -- they make cameras for companies like Bosch, LG, Everfocus, etc. They've not been as aggressive as marketing their own KT&C-branded cameras in the USA. So they're probably more reputed as a manufacturer to the big brands than they are known as a brand to most resellers, installers and users. The KT&C website apparently understates the VDE101/VDE200 minimum illumination ratings (0.05 lux for colour and 0.02 lux BW). These cameras are really rated 0.0001 lux BW at 700TVL resolution, according to KT&C's staff and other marketing material I've received. The camera has the Sony Effio-E DSP as well as Sony 1/3" 960H Exview HAD CCD II image sensor. What is more fundamental for low light performance is that 960H Exview HAD CCD II sensor (more than than the DSP). This Exview image sensor not just achieves 700TVL resolution, it does this by more tightly packing 27% more pixels in the CCD. More pixels packed into the CCD (without making the pixels smaller) allows better image quality (more TV lines) without sacrificing light sensitivity. The Exview sensor thus offers better light sensitivity in very low light (even near-infrared wavelengths) as well as in good light, compared to older generation CCDs such as Sony's Super HAD CCD II sensor. So KT&C's view is that regardless of the Effio DSP chip, it is really the 1/3" 960H Exview HAD CCD II image sensor that is more basic to low light performance. The Effio-E DSP in the VDE101/VDE200 is an entry-level DSP which supports 700TVL high resolution, and has features such as 2D-NR (Noise reduction), HLC (High Light Compensation), ATR (Adaptive Tone Reproduction) and better colour reproduction. I'm not aware of any camera yet that has Sony's new higher-end DSP chips (Effio-S or Effio-P) with more functions like WDR, DSS, 3D-NR, DIS, ATR-EX, etc. than the entry-level Effio-E. http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/effiowld/index.html http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/effiowld/products/index.html http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/effiowld/technology/index.html http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/effiowld/system/index.html http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol63/pdf/cxd4129_30gg.pdf Here's an alternative view from a CCTV Forum member I contacted directly. He believes that the DSP is more important. He said the Effio-E was an entry-level DSP that lacked low-lux features and performance (which is true, compared to Effio-S and Effio-P). He feels that another camera (without Effio-E) with Sense Up, 3DNR and TDN features would out perform KT&C's Effio-E based camera. However, it would seem that the KT&C camera's 0.0001 lux rating without DSS should, in practice, be better than using DSS/Sense Up (which after 8X can give blurry or distorted images of moving objects). The KT&C marketing material I was emailed seems to show a very good low light image without Sense Up compared to an image from a conventional camera. Even their comparison of an image taken without and with their 2D-NR was quite good. The only way to know for sure is to objectively compare the KT&C camera and CNB cameras. The KT&C VDE101 camera has the better image sensor than the CNB VCM-24VF, but it remains to be seen how the Effio-E DSP compares to the CNB Mona Lisa DSP and other features. In any case, it's probable that CNB and other manufacturers will soon have to introduce products that have the Effio DSP and Exview HAD II features -- or alternatives that can compete with these. A quick search of < Effio Exview CCTV > at the alibaba.com B2B website shows that many suppliers from China and Hong Kong (and Korea if you search harder) are already selling products with these features at very low prices.

Fair enough. In any case I can always add light later if needed. I'm going to call KT&C tomorrow to see if I can get an answer from them

Thanks, Rory. So at 0.02 lux (quarter moon light), what kind of B/W images would I probably get with the Exview HAD II and Effio DSP? Would the images likely be clear enough for review and identification? Or would it be similar to what a normal human eye would see in quarter moon light? I realize you haven't tested this camera, so take your best guess.

Hi Matt, thanks. The CNB website says the VCM-24VFH has a "new, more powrful DSP" that gives enhanced low light sensitivity and minium illumination of 0.005 lux (BW). Have you found an improvement in the updated camera with the new DSP? http://tinyurl.com/3h5w59v The VCM-24VFH is the camera of choice for the good reasons you mentioned. Right now, that VCM-24VFH is on the top of my list, all things considered. However, on paper there are possible alternatives (surely more than the three other cameras with 'newer technologies' I found) but no one yet has field info on whether those cameras are better or worse. So I'm just doing my due diligence to try to find out if there is a better alternative out there. I'm still open, but if I can't find something better then I'll buy the CNB. Btw, by "marketing" I don't mean just advertising, promotions or pushy sales. Also part of good marketing strategy and activities are offering products that give value to resellers and customers, getting the products to more distributors, reducing sales hassle, ensuring reliable storing and shipping, communication, building relationships, and using word-of-mouth.

You're very right that brand and market familiarity is often due to advertising and perceived quality. In Korea, it's possible a company like KT&C might actually be more reputed for better products than CNB (or vice versa) because both Korean companies and their products are better known to Koreans than to North Americans (who know CNB more partly due to its better marketing). I'm open to any decent brand that gives best value for my money. But I have zero experience with the security camera field to know what is or is not a camera that -- in the field -- is best performing and good quality at its price point. So I'm also looking at technologies and specs (like the Effio DSP, Exview HAD II CCD, sense up, etc.) that might differentiate the ability of various cameras. However, paper specs and high price do not necessarily equate with how the camera really performs in the field. That's why I'm hoping those with field experience can tell me whether there are better true day/night dome cameras without IR within $300 than the CNB VCM-24VF for capturing clearer images in night and day with high quality.

Hi Rory, the KT&G's KPC-VDE101 seems to be the KPC-VDE200 without the heater/fan option (and dimensions are slightly different). Both cameras have Sony EXview HAD II CCD. No mention whether their DSP is Sony Effio (unless presumed to have it). Thus, I'm surprised their minimum illumination is only 0.05 Lux (Color) / 0.02 Lux (B/W). I would have thought the EXview HAD II CCD and Effio DSP would give these cameras better low light sensitivity (or do those features only give clearer images and resolution within that lesser lux sensitivity)? The cameras do not seem to have Sense Up (DSS). - CCTV Forum thread comparing Sony Effio http://tinyurl.com/68z56cf - Sony links on Effio DSP and Exview HAD CCD II http://tinyurl.com/3skow3o http://tinyurl.com/6bulcg6 - KT&C (Korean Technology & Communications) says it was established two years before CNB. Here is a you tube clip on KT&C, prepare to either be impressed... or amused. Of the four cameras I listed, I had hoped that the KT&G's VDE200 (or VDE101) camera would have the clearest low-light images and have the best low-light sensitivity without IR, given its EXview HAD II CCD and Effio DSP features. Instead, based on paper specs, the KT&C cameras have the worst B/W light sensitivity on the list (it ties the CNB VCM-24VFH/VF for worst colour light sensitivity). The cameras with the best low light sensitivity on paper specs are the VITEK VTD-MVP2810DN and CCTVSTAR SVD-620SI2812D2, as both have Sense Up. The Vitek camera has the Sony Effio-E DSP, 1/3” Sony High Density EXVIEW CCD (I think it's not the same as Exview HAD II CCD), as well as Sense Up (Night Watch DSS Low Light Color Technology) features. Of course paper specs and field reality may be different (there is field info only on the CNB camera). Has anyone else ordered from 123securityproducts?

Now we are talking! Not a penny more! unless Alex82311240 says $300 "can't do much these days" So, back to my question: Is there a better TD/N camera (than the CNB VCM-24VF or VCM-24VFH) within $300, available in the USA? Any other camera that can capture clearer images in the lowest light (as well as in the daytime)?

Thanks Matt (Soundy) for your important tips. I guess I should get a new power supply distribution box panel that transforms house AC to 24V AC for the heated camera (my current box outputs 12V DC).

Hi Nimrod, many thanks for checking those cameras and replying. I'm trying to find out which 'true day/night' dome camera under US$300 is better than the CNB VCM-24VF (i.e., gives the clearest night and day images in the lowest light without IR). Treat my US$300 budget as if it's bought in the USA (you're right, it's more expensive to buy the same cameras in Canada). On using heated cameras in winter, the thread you suggested was helpful. In January (coldest month), Soundy's Vancouver climate is within the limits of the VCM-24VF's specifications. Vancouver typically remains at least 10F warmer than the CNB VCM-24VF's minimum operating temperature of 14F. Even its modern record coldest was still only 15F (in 1950). However, Toronto's winter is colder. In January and February, the average low is about 18F, but temperatures dip to below 14F (e.g., -4F or worse) for short periods or days. Toronto's modern record coldest was -24F (in 1981). In the VCM-24VF's manual, the first point in the precautions section is : "Do not install the camera in extreme weather conditions. Operate the camera under conditions where temperatures are within -10C (14F) to..." A CNB sales rep did tell me that the VCM-24VF cameras (no heater) installed outside their New Jersey office building continued to work well in the recent mild winters. New Jersey winters are colder than Vancouver but warmer than Toronto. But the CNB rep was unable to say whether those cameras would survive a colder winter. Hence the issue about using a heated camera.

Thanks edselrt. Given what you said, I've had to increase the budget to US$300 The lowest internet price for the VCM-24VFH with heater is about US$165. Some sources are dubious, others seem legit.

Hi folks. After foiling a breaking and attempted entry into my house (6 serial burglars were caught and charged in court), I've decided to put in a security camera system. As a layman, I've learned many useful things reading this forum, so thank you. I need your advice to help choose the best outdoor "true day/night" dome camera within $250 to complete my system (either from my following list or please recommend a better alternative camera). That is, which camera will give the clearest picture in day/nightime (in the lowest light, preferably without IR); will operate reliably in winter weather; and is vandal proof? Further below I've given background information and desired camera features/specs. - CNB: VCM-24VFH with heater All links are to manufacturers' websites. Sorry, I don't have permission to activate these links so please use the active links in edselrt's post below http://tinyurl.com/3h5w59v - VITEK: VTD-MVP2810DN http://tinyurl.com/3bjn85y - CCTVSTAR: SVD-620SI2812D2 with *heater option* http://tinyurl.com/3s485uo - KT&C: KPC-VDE200 with *heater option* http://tinyurl.com/3dnbxum Background information, if interested: * A few weeks ago I bought a bundle from Q-See which has a DVR (Q-See QT528 with 1 TB -- records D1 at 30 fps on all 8 channels); a power distribution box (QS1008 -- transforms AC power supply to 12 V DC for 8 cameras); and four basic cameras (QSC1352W bullet cameras -- 520TVL, IR with 60ft range, 14F minimum operating temperature). It's not installed yet, but I've have connected the parts as a dry run to see how it all works. I've decided to replace those Q-See cameras with better "true day/night" cameras. * The four outdoor cameras will cover sections of the 50 to 60 ft deep lawn, garden, driveway and sidewalks around my house (it's a 2-storey, 55 ft x 35 ft, corner house in a suburb of Toronto, Canada). First, the cameras should have a variety of good low-light enhancement technologies to capture clearer images at night (in addition to daytime). Any Sense Up (DSS) would probably not be set higher than 8X or 16X (to avoid blurred and distorted images due to moving persons/cars). Three sides of my house have some lighting from street lamps 90 ft away. However, one side is quite dark (15 ft alley between my house and neighbour's house). I want to avoid using IR cameras or separate IR illuminators, unless IR is necessary. Second, the cameras should be dome cameras that are vandal proof. Third, the cameras must be able to operate and survive those 10 to 14 winter days/nights when Toronto’s temperature may drop below -4F (-20C) to -14F (-25C). Camera features/specifications desired (feel free to recommend something better or different): * Dome camera (non-IR or IR) * Outdoor Location: - Minimum Operating Temperature -4F/-20C (preferably -14 F/-25C) for Toronto winter - Built in Heater option (if camera not rated -4F) - Vandal resistant - IP66 weatherproof or better - Reliable (does not break down) and decent quality * True Day & Night (TDN) System with IR cut filter (ICR) - Minimum Illumination: 0.05 Lux Color, 0.005 Lux BW, 0.001 Lux BW with Sense Up, 0 Lux with IR, Selectable (if possible) - Optional: Sense Up or DSS (Auto/Selectable 2X to at least 16X) - Optional: IR night Vision about 60 ft (not necessary if min illumination is good) * Resolution: Colour 600 TV Lines / BW 650TVL (minimum 550 TVL) - Effective Pixels Number: at least 768(H) x 494(V) in NTSC - Image Sensor: 1/3" High Sensitivity CCD * Lens: - either Fixed (about 3 to 4 mm) or Vari-focal (about 3 to 9 mm) - free lens movement and rotation * Connections: - Power/Voltage: 12V DC connection - Video: BNC connection * Nice-to-have features, if available (whichever gives clearer images in day/night): - Backlight (BLC or SBLC) - Digital Noise Reduction (DNR or SDNR or 3D DNR) for S/N Ratio more than 50dB (AGC Off) - Automatic Gain Control (AGC) - Wide Dynamic Range (WDR) - White Balance - Privacy Zone - Motion detection - Flickerless - Mirror - DIS Thank you very much, I appreciate your help!