GECAMGUY

So here's what appears to be going on. Looks like you don't have a lens rated with a spot size small enough to equal the spot size required by your megapixel sensor. This is why selecting megapixel rated optics are so key when using megapixel lenses. Remember, on a 1/3" 1.3 Megapixel sensor, the pixels are about 1/3 the size of a standard 540 TVL analog sensor, or a 4CIF, VGA or D1 IP camera. This means the optics on the lens need to be three times as good, i.e. the spot size needs to be one-third the rated spot size of a standard resolution lens. The most frequent characteristic of this is that you focus the lens as best you can and it still looks "fuzzy" across the entire field of view. Generally it will get more fuzzy as you look to the edges as most optics increase in spot size as they move away from the center. In the night shot this looks further compounded by IR shift. Even if the lens is rated as an "IR-corrected" lens there are different qualities of that feature and the shift is causing additional reduction in sharpness. By the way, hello all, this is Jason Spielfogel. I was the Product Manager for GE Security fixed camera line for five years but moved over to IQinVision about a year ago. My email is Jason.Spielfogel@iqeye.com if you need to contact me for any reason. Special hello to Rory. It's good to be back

I have an opportunity for interested beta testers for our two upcoming lines of Fixed Analog "Mini-Domes" DM2 Series Plastic Domes DR2 Series Rugged Domes Participants will need to have someone who can give 2-3 hours per week worth of testing and feedback on these new cameras over a 4-6 week period, and who can participate on a weekly, 30-60 minute phone call as well as a quick 15-30 minute online survey each week. When complete, testers will get to keep any and all beta cameras tested. Interested parties should also have an environment suitable for testing, including: -Power Supply(s) for the cameras -Display to view camera images -Recording mechanism to capture the video (DVR) -Ability to install cameras inside and outside -Testing equipment such as a voltmeter. Additional equipment such as Lux-meters, osciilliscopes, NDF filters, etc are not required, but do help with testing. Specific experience in setting up and testing CCTV cameras is preferred, but not required as we also are interested in the end-user experience. If interested, I need to know no later than End-of-day, January 31st, 2006. Any inquiries after this will not be fielded. Please send requests for candidacy for this beta program to: jason.spielfogel@ge.com Include: Name Company Address Phone email capabilities and equipment available for testing

New DR2 will be same size and profile as the DR but will have the new 500 and 540TVL sensors, and will have true Day/Night versions of both. It can also come with the UltraView XP3 sensor, though that's not available in Day/Night upon release. As I said before it'll work with all the existing DR series mounts. Want in on the beta?

Wait'll you see the new ones Rory. They work with all the old mounts, And yeah there's Day/Night versions of all but the XP3 version and we'll have day/night versions of that before the end of the year. -GECAMGUY

Arecont Vision has something like that that I've seen demo'd at recent shows. I thought it was a 4 x 5 Megapixel camera, but maybe they have a 10 MP version too. Of course it could be somebody else entirely. Gotta be pricey though, like several thousand dollars. -GECAMGUY

Wow lots of cool stuff for me to post about today. First, I think megapixel is the bomb when it comes to license plate recognition or any application where super high resolution images are needed. The problems I tend to see in license plate capture applications are: 1) Installers/End-Users try and use the same camera for general surveillance in a field of view that they use for license plate capture 2) They buy the wrong camera to use in WDR or Low-Light applications. I see this all the time in my business, where customers buy our cameras wanting to use them for General Purpose AND License Plate Capture at the same time, then are disappointed. I always recommend that A) They zoom in the camera on the choke point where license plates will be visible 90+% of the time, and/or; B) They buy a megapixel camera Another thing to consider is Ambient Rejection cameras, which focus on a specific reflective illumination range. Since license plates by their nature are very reflective, what happens is an auxillary illumination source (usually a defined wavelength range of IR) is distributed where the cars are passing the camera. The camera is tuned to that specific range of IR and discards all other video. The end-user is left with a bright as day image of the license plate in pretty much any environment. The downsides are you need a dedicated LPC camera and Ambient Rejection cameras are very pricey. In lieu of that, I'd recommend my A/B solutions above. Best, GECAMGUY

Oh my apologies then. I had KT&C come in a couple months ago and none of the units they showed me had a Removable IR cut filters. GECAMGUY

I would consider our DI-XP2 series to be the best Wide Dynamic Range fixed dome camera on the market, though Panasonic's SD III series can give them a run for their money. One cautionary note. The DI-XP2 doesn't do well in low light, so don't use it there. It's sweet spot is daylight conditions with high wide dynamic range activity (like in a business lobby or showroom with lots of windows and a bright sunny exterior). In that environment, it beats pretty much any competing product cold. If you need low light, wait a couple months until my new DR2-XP3 cameras launch. They have all the WDR performance of the DI-XP2, plus they have full digital GUI control, a true 3-Axis gimble and much better low-light performance. The current models of the DI-XP2 are: DI-XP2-VF3 (3-8mm Varifocal, fixed iris) DI-XP2-VF9 (3-8mm Varifocal, fixed iris) DI-XP2-VFA3 (3-8mm Varifocal, Autoiris) Of these three the DI-XP2-VF3 is the most popular. Hope this helps. GECAMGUY

The list is way too long to research and post here. But you're right, it can be confusing, especially when some manufacturers list their basic Color/Mono cameras as Day/Night, when in fact a TRUE Day/Night camera should have a removable IR cut filter. Best way is to look at the Spec or Data sheet of a given product. If it doesn't clearly say it's got a Removable IR cut filter, chances are it does not. Once you receive the camera you can double check by forcing it into night mode (with a NDF filter or simply by placing your hand over the lens). Usually you can hear the gear swinging the cut filter out of place (may take up to 10 seconds before the DSP signals the cut filter motor to operate, so be patient). Bosch cameras have an extremely quiet cut filter motor, so you really have to listen closely. If you hear nothing, particularly on less expensive brands, you can be pretty certain there isn't an IR cut filter present. Another way to check is to use an IR illuminator in the dark with the camera. Color/Mono cameras have SOME IR response, but it is generally very small. Cameras with a removable IR cut filter should have full IR response. Hope this helps. GECAMGUY

Lots of good stuff on this thread. I'll chime in if I may. First, for those that don't know me I'm the Product Manager for fixed cameras for GE Security. We're a late bloomer into the IP Surveillance market, but a strong bloomer nonetheless. I state that right off the bat so that you can understand my position, which while biased, at least I admit who I am. Okay on to the hype. Yep, you're right there's a lot of hype out there right now. Most of it is coming from Axis, with a lot also coming from Sony. Why? Because Axis doesn't even sell analog equipment. Their entire solution is IP, so they're fighting like mad to sell everyone on the IP solution. So keep that in mind when you read their literature. Sony, while not quite in the same boat as Axis, bet their Video Security farm on IP, so they're pushing that story too, though not was as much hype as Axis. That's not to say Axis and Sony make bad IP products. On the contrary, it's very good stuff. Just consider the source is all I'm asking you to do. For us over at GE Security, we recognize that 95% plus of the market is still analog, so we've been shifting a lot slower. I'm just now introducing the first of my serious Network IP cameras, and even still most of my current R&D is in analog cameras. That's the way the market is, so it's the way GE is. When the market wholly adopts IP (and it will), we'll follow suit. So that said, let me address a couple of the "Why IP?" points we see advertised. "Leverage Existing Network" - Heh, not unless you're only going to run like five or fewer cameras or you've got a gigabit network or you're giving a dedicated subnet to your IP video system. Otherwise, that 3 MB (average unchoked bandwidth of most Network IP cameras) sucks up a lot of network traffic. That said, if you do have redundant CAT 5 in place or you can do a separate subnet, etc, then yes, you may be able to leverage existing infrastructure "No copper to pull" - Actually I don't consider this hype, but a true advantage. Think about it, is it easier to pull one ring of CAT 5 for your video network or is it easier to pull a copper (coax) cable from each camera back the head-end? That's a no-brainer. "More Remote Access" - Well most modern DVRs have remote, even network access, even if they're "analog" or "hybrid" DVRs. BUT, with Network IP you do get the benefit of using all the off-the-shelf PC protocols and equipment, which is nice. It also bridges Security and IT, meaning IT installers can begin installing security, and security installers can train to compete for IT installations. Believe me, both are occuring and I see it every day. Either way, doing cool things like checking your Network IP camera via a web browser from anywhere in the world that has a computer and internet access is a definite selling point. When you look at WAP applications and the ability to stream video to a PDA or cell phone, it gets really exciting. Guess what else? You can now completely setup your camera and DVR remotely. Okay you still have to focus the lens at the camera (for now), but if you need to change the actual camera settings you can do that from nearly anywhere (including a browser) without having to learn fancy terms like "coaxitron". With Network IP, it just works that way for all devices. With VMS (Video Management Software) applications like Omnicast or Xprotect you can even do global setup blasts that change the settings to a whole group of cameras at once. And since a lot of the intelligence resides in the IP camera, you can remotely flash upgrade the camera to the latest firmware or analytics. Try doing that with an analog camera. "Lower Total Cost of Ownership" - Well, maybe some day, but not yet as we're still in the early adopter phase of network IP products and will be for the next 12-18 months. BUT, theorhetically, because you can leverage the much more massive volumes of products sold in the mainstream PC industry, theorhetically the equipment is or will be cheaper. Haven't seen it work out yet, but I have seen several IP installations that are very close to what an analog install would have ran. This runs more true on large enterprise applications then it does smaller installs. Now for the downsides. "Not CCTV" - as another poster indicated, it's not Closed Circuit anymore, though it could sorta be if you had a dedicated network that wasn't hooked into any other network or the Internet. On the other hand, with IP you have access to all that cool encryption that's part of the Information age. Can you keep out every hacker? Nope, but the same holds true of CCTV -- if somebody wants access to your security system badly enough, they'll get in. The difference is they generally have to be on site to get it with traditional CCTV, not the case with Network IP products. "Subject to network outages" - Absolutely true, but what I think you'll see in years to come is things like buffer storage on IP cameras so that they can store video during an outage and re-synch to the Edge-of-Network device or NVR once connectivity is restored. When it comes to rock-solid, nearly outage free service, certainly analog has a leg up, but I think that gap cinches closer every passing month. "Expensive" - Yep, for now expect to pay 2-3 times what you'd pay for the same analog camera. But when you look at reduced cabling costs and other factors I've seen the total cost of installs balance out for Network IP and analog. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= I swear I swear I swear I'm not trying to sell you on to Network IP. Do what's best for your customers and yourself. But be aware that the Winds of Change are definitely here and Network IP Security is growing in popularity every day. If you think it'll catch on, remember that 8-Track player pundits said the same thing about Cassette Tapes, who said the same thing about CDs. It's coming, sure as I'm typing this. GECAMGUY

I would say that IndigoVision has hands down the best ASIC on the market, particularly from a latency standpoint. I've seen it demo'd several times at various shows (and one of our Product Managers works for Indigo now) and I can say definitively it's a sweet ASIC. In one demo, they have compressed video and live analog right next to each other. Not only is the quality equally crisp, but the latency is SOOOOO Low (like less than 50 mSec) that you really have to watch to see any latency at all. Rory is correct about the ACTi CODEC, it's fantastic from a price/performance standpoint, and works perfectly with Genetec's and Milestone's software, which is why we chose ACTi's CODEC to pair with our new IP cameras (see my IP Rugged Dome beta test thread). GECAMGUY

Wow KT&C was recommended? Really? Well I guess for low cost cameras they do a pretty good job. The reason your new camera is "grainier" is that it's Signal To Noise Ratio is different, most likely because the new camera has the gain turned up in low-light. I don't know what your older camera was, but chances are it either had limited AGC or none at all, or else KT&C just pre-configures this camera with higher gain. The thing that counts is you're happier with the new camera, and that's all that really counts Your next step would be a true Day/Night camera with a removable IR cut filter, which gives you true IR response and far less graininess in low light. Happy Surveilling -GECAMGUY

I now have a small quantity of IP Rugged Dome cameras for beta testing. These are 500 TVL Rugged Dome cameras that stream at D1 at 30 FPS. They are POE or local 12V DC and offer many other features that can be described outside this document. Beta testing begins a week from today, so if you're interested, please email me at Jason.Spielfogel@ge.com In that email, please specify: Name Company Name Address City, State, Zip Contact phone Name of individual actually doing the beta test Business category (Integrator, End-User, Distributor, Dealer, etc.) At this time we are only accepting candidates from the Americas. Our European team will hold separate beta tests for those geographies and will give a separate invitation for beta testing. This beta does ship with client software that will control the camera from a networked, PC, but it is your responsibility to provide the computer, POE switch (or 12VDC power supply) and any other connectivity infrastructure. Additionally, you will be required to participate in a weekly online beta survey and call in to a weekly beta call through the beta period. After beta is over, the camera is free for you to use, resell, etc. In advance, thank you for your interest. Jason Spielfogel Worldwide Product Manager - Camera Solutions GE Security Jason.Spielfogel@GE.com

That's correct, this is for U.S. based Beta testing at this time. Our EMEA group (Europe, Middle East and Africa) will hold separate Beta tests and you should check with your local GE Security sales rep to inquire about this. -Jason

As far as that goes, I agree. I know a lot of the legacy GE cameras are 12 VDC only, but all my NPIs will either come in a universal 12VDC/24VAC, or have separate PNs for a 12VDC and 24VAC flavor, OR will be 12VDC but will ship with a 24VAC to 12VDC converter. The latter is what I do with our popular MD2-1500 2" mini-dome, because I just can't fit a 24VAC board into the tiny housing. That didn't stop one installer in Texas from tearing off all the converters that we factory install on the units and then run 24VAC into them, then got all upset when they started smoking One thing to think about is IP cameras. The PoET standard doesn't even allow for AC, so keep that in mind. Jason Spielfogel GE Security

Rory, this isn't entirely true, though you bring up a good point which is differentiating between Color/Mono and Color/Mono with removeable IR cut filter. You're correct that the HQ1 540TVL sensor system from Sony does perform digital Color/Mono performance, which doesn't actually increase a camera's low light performance. This doesn't stop MANY manufacturers from calling Color/Mono cameras "Day/Night" cameras even though they're actually not. True Day/Night performance comes from either cameras that have a two sensor system, with one sensor having an IR cut filter and the other without (very rare solution), or the more common solution for the CCTV industry which is a camera that switches from color to mono in low light and ALSO removes the IR cut filter to give the camera low light and IR response. This feature is available with the HQ1 540TVL sensor by some manufacturers, so you can actually have a 540 TVL camera that is true day/night. As far as your dome specs go, check out the high-level specs on my new DM2/DR2 series plastic and rugged domes. I showed these at ASIS and they should go to beta in Late December, with launches in early February 2007. -Available in 520TVL (SS2), 540TVL (HQ1) or our new UltraView 3 platforms. The SS2 and HQ1 flavors will be available in color/mono AND a Day/Night version with color/mono AND a removable IR cut filter. I'm also working to make a day/night version of our UltraView 3, but that'll be later in 2007 -All will include a secondary video out that is inside the bubble, so you can tune the camera without having to fish out the the BNC connector that's meant to go to your head unit. An adapter cable that converts this second video out to BNC will be included in the box. -All will be 24VAC/12VDC power input. -I have redesigned the plastic dome (DM2) to be the same size as the DR2, which is also the same size as our existing DR series. This means that both new platforms will be backward compatible with most of the existing DR mounts, including the DR-RWM wall mount, the DR-EP and DR-PM pendant mounts, and the DR-OCM and DR-ICM inside/outside corner mounts. -Both the DR2 and DM2 will have polycarbonate bubbles with a swivalable captive shroud for concealing camera position. -Both the DR2 and DM2 will have a TRUE 3-Axis gimble -Both the DR2 and DM2 will come with adapter plates for easy single-gang and double-gang box installation -UTP versions will be made available in mid Q2 2007 -There are a few other cool features to the camera, but I can't discuss them yet because there are patent applications on these features that are pending. This release is the culimnation of about 12 months of me asking customers at every opportunity what we could do to improve our GE Security line of plastic and rugged domes. Look for news on these to come in late December 2006 or early 2007. Oh one thing I'd like to know is the expected street price of the cameras you spec. Doesn't do me much good to meet your specs if my price is too high. All I ask is that you be reasonable with your price/spec requests. Don't ask me, for example, for the feature list I just provided, in a camera that has a street price of $150, because it just won't happen. Jason Spielfogel Worldwide Product Manager - Fixed Cameras GE Security

Hello everyone. My name is Jason Spielfogel and I'm the Product Manager for Fixed Cameras and Monitors for GE Security. I just learned about this form and will visit it from time-to-time to gather customer feedback, answer questions etc. I tend to be pretty busy so I can't guarantee the frequency with which I visit this site, but feel free to PM me or post on this forum with questions and comments as often as you can. I may also use this forum as a gathering ground for customers to beta test product, but we'll take that part one step at a time. Take Care, Jason Spielfogel GE Security

Dear Sir, I am the Product Manager for cameras, but not PTZ domes. So please specify if you mean fixed camera domes or our PTZ line of domes. Have you contacted our tech support and customer support departments regarding your installation issues? If not that should be your first step. If you would like to send me a PM with the specific model(s) and specific issues you've had, I'll be glad to forward it internally to the appropriate product manager and tech support folks so that you receive a prompt reply. Sincerely, Jason Spielfogel GE Security

GE is about to release it's 500+ TVL camera line, and I've got beta units coming in next week (so they tell me) I'm looking for about a dozen integrators that are willing to test, play around with, kick the tires on, and report back to me what they think of these cameras. I have two basic models you'll be testing: GEC-HDR1 - This is based on the SS2 WDR Chip. It's 500 TVL color and 520 TVL B&W GEC-EVR1 - This is based on the SuperHAD HQ-1 architecture. It's 540 TVL color, 570 TVL B&W. Both are traditional "Brick" cameras and both have full digital GUI programmibility. All beta samples will be yours to keep and do with what you will after the beta test is over. The beta test will run 4-6 weeks and you will be required to give a once per week update on your experience with performance, setup, etc. If you are interested, please email me at Jason.Spielfogel@ge.com with your company name, your name, address and phone number. This offer is for Integrators that are already customers of GE Security only please (including customers who purchase our products indirectly through distribution). Thank you, GECAMGUY Oh and P.S. in a couple of months I'll have IP cameras for you to beta test too, so stay tuned.

Rory, Wow great feedback. As far as putting it in the dealer's forum, that's up to you. Last time I tried putting something somewhere else, you moved it to the camera forum, so it's entirely up to you where you think this should go. I did get a lot of replies from having it in this section, but hey, the more the merrier. I need to pick your brain for more feature requirements but your VOC (Voice of Customer) has been very helpful thus far. Thanks, -Jason

At the GE Security demo lab, we're attempting to tie in one of the alarm outputs on one of our DVRs to a police-still light-bar, for the purpose of demonstrating when an alarm event occurs. The light bar is a mockup so it requires 110AC not DC like a normal police bar. What we're trying to figure out is, what type of hardware should we use that would allow the alarm out to be able to turn on an electrical source to power the lightbar. Any suggestions?

No worries Rory, as you can see I got some pretty good suggestions above from the group. We'll figure something out

Very funny Rory, Bob Clark did in fact give me some suggestions, but I thought I'd ask this group too.

I'm no installer and certainly don't have the breadth of experience those that have posted on here have mentioned but just to throw my two BNC connectors into this. In our lab, one thing I've noticed about cameras that are 12VDC/24VAC is if I run 12VDC and I don't switch the camera from Line Lock to internal lock, I often see color rolling between Green and Blue. This isn't just with GE cameras, I see it happen with competing cameras as well. I've even seen cameras that state that their universal 12VDC/24VAC but have it factory set to Line Lock with no way to change it so, yeah you can run 12VDC, but you get lousy video. That being said, I generallly recommend 12VDC for anything under about 100', but not longer than that unless you're also using the wiring to heat your building as well as power the camera Oh one other thing, if your powering a camera that you may some day switch out to an IP camera, most IP cameras are 12VDC only, so keep that in mind as you "Futureproof" your installation.

I dunno, I'll have to look, I can't imagine it's high amperage, I'm sure it's a low voltage device.