Lloyd

I would like some advise/suggestions on a camera selection.

First some background:

I live in beautiful rural Wisconsin, and have an 1100 foot long driveway.

About 3 or 4 years ago, I noticed the gravel at the end of my driveway was getting torn up alot.

The driveway entrance is on a corner, and on the top of a steep hill.

Some people drive up the hill, and 'punch it' while rounding the corner.

I could also see skid marks on the blacktop.

Where normally this would not bother me too much, I have a school age child that has to walk this route to the neighbors driveway to get picked up by the school bus.

The bus will not stop at the end of my driveway, as this is an unsafe place for it to stop.

The bus will also not drive down my long driveway, because then I would have to provide timely snow removal for its travel, and a place for it to turn around.

One day I noticed the skid maks on the blacktop followed a deffinate path.....

They skidded around the corner, into the ditch on the opposite side of the road, and back onto the blacktop.

Which side of the road do I tell my son to walk?

I wanted to know who the idiots were that was doing this.

So I decided to use the resources I had on hand and try to get some info.

I set up a VHS VCR, a tripod, and used an old Sony camcorder that the tape transport was broken .... but it had a 6X zoom and a video out jack.

A sad setup for sure, but it gained me info.

I learned there were real unsafe acts going on, including u-turns/ Y-turns which of course they then had to 'burn out' while leaving.

My home also is surrounded on several sides by DNR (Department of Natural Resourses) land, open to public hunting and hiking.

There is public access parking near too, and this draws in a lot of 'undesirables'.

I have had several instances of vehicles coming partway down my driveway, and tearing up the lawn on the sides as they turned and left.

So I taped and viewed until I thursted for more info.

Then I purchased a better camcorder with 22X optical zoom.

That got me alot more info, better picture, and closer.

This info allowed me to document several of the offenders, and some even got tresspassing fines for it.

I showed the videos to the town authorities, and they posted very large "NO U-TURN NO Y-TURN" signs near my driveway entrance.

They saw a deffinate safety concern.

I saw the need for more info .... yep, I was getting hooked.

There were also some nice nature videos that I enjoyed .... deer, fox, coyote, turkeys, etc.

Sometime I'll post my video of a piebald deer, a rarity around here indeed.

I started do the research into the surveillance world.

I knew nothing of cameras, optics, etc .... but I have PC and electrical savy.

Computers and computer building is my hobby, and I am a retired maintenance electrician.

I decided on a GeoVision GV800-8 card, and built a PC for it.

It is running well, and has been since March of this year. ( My only problem was fixed by the wisdom of Rory ... thanks again )

Much nicer then the VCR ... no tapes to change, no squiggly lines to look thru on fast forward, easier to save files, etc.

I really like it.

Now it is time to get a little more serious about a camera.

I have a very old b/w surveillance camera and zoom lens that Cooperman was helping me to get going.

( Thanks Cooperman, it's on a shelf for now, but I may try again sometime in the future ... ... I really appreciate all the time you spent helping me )

This camera/lens can not be a replacement for my camcorder ... no enough magnification.

I have been reading this forum for some time and have learned alot.

Now I want to select a decent color surveillance camera to replace the camcorder I have been using.

So that is the background... probably more then you need or wanted.

Here are the facts.

The driveway is 1100 feet long from camera to blacktop.

The camera is insde, looking thru a window.

The camcorder is a Samsung SCW71

This is what a captured pic looks like, it's about a 50 foot wide FOV.

The camera faces north, away from the sun, but some of the picture is washed out when the sun hits the grass.

So I know I need a WDR camera.

Eventually I will run underground conduit to within about 100 feet of the blacktop.

At that time I will add cameras that I hope will capture license plates.

I just want a better picture with the same or similar FOV that I presently have.

Right now I capture during all daylight hours, and shut it down at night.

I view all captured video.

I would like to get good enough of a camera to capture at night too, but without IR.

I know that the picture will not be good at night, at that distance.

I also know it may be "not too bad", and get me info if my driveway is torn up at night .... as it has been several times.

The lens calculator tells me that with a 1/3" camera, 1100' distance, and a 50' FOV, I need about a 100mm lens.

From reading here, I believe the lens should be auto-iris, aspherical, and glass.

what do you guys think about this combination?

So, with all of that in mind, and the fact that I don't want to spent over $1000 on camera and lens together, I am open for suggestions/comments/questions.

I'd use an online 'power supply calculator' ... Google will get you many ...

example: http://www.vbutils.com/power.asp

didnt know they come cheaper ..

that one costs us like $130 here in Nassau ... but we get a good price as they buy in bulk. ..and sell them like hotcakes due to our power issues here /...

On June 10th I ordered this same/similar UPS unit from Dell... an APC ES 650VA 120V.

I just got it plugged in and it is charging at this time.

The order form, shown below, says the words, "Dell only".

I see NOTHING on the unit or installation instructions that refer to Dell specific ...... but ....

I see it refers to it as "Back-UPS DL650T", and your link is for a "Back-UPS BE650R".

Is this a unit made specifically for Dell, and are there many differences?

The only thing I've found so far is that your BE650R link shows that it includes, "CD with software, Free trial of anti-virus : firewall : email privacy : system recovery and online backup software, USB cable, User Manual, Wall-mounting template".

Dell's DL650T included only installation instructions, and phone cord.

Your BE650R mentions a USB cable.

Dell's DL650T has no place to plug in a USB cable.

What is the USB communications used for on the BE650R?

I did the testing today ... not very good results.

The camera powered up with a grey screen.

There is a darker grey horizontal line across the screen.

It's wide ... about 1/5th the total screen height.

It slowly floats from top to bottom.

That's about all it does.

No change on the screen when I pass my hand in front of the lens.

----

I tested the focus and zoom functions with 12VDC.

The zoom motor did not run.

The focus motor does run, and the gears rotate ... to a point.

There is a shaft with multiple gears on it that is acting like a slip clutch ... and it's slipping.

I tried to rotate the focus by hand expecting to see a little gear slop as I changed directions.

The assembly appears tight .... doesn't want to rotate at all.

I think the gears would do there job if the lens was free to move.

I plugged the iris contol into the camera, and turned on the camera.

The iris motor made a small movement and stopped.

That is what it does everytime power is cycled on.

Not looking good .....

OK, I'll put the camera back together, and remount the lens.

I'll test it with the iris plug removed from its jack, and away from bright lights.

To test the video, do I run the camera output to the 'RCA In' on a VCR or TV?

What is the voltage on the video out of this camera?

The camera came with a short section of cable with PL259 at both ends.

I will cut one plug off and put on a new BNC.

From there, I can convert to RCA.

WOW! Lots of good info! Thanks!

Cover removed ...

All looks well, nobody living in there .... no 'dark brown' smell ....

I founds some pots.

VERT. SIZE

VERT.CENTER'G

HOR. SIZE

BEAM

FOCUS

GAIN

HI PEAK'G

SETUP

The tube looks fine.

Here is a pic of some data on the tube.

I didn't know if that would help you identify it.

I have no problem working around exposed circuits, etc.

All three lens motors are tagged on the motor end caps as "DC 12V".

Thanks for the explaination of the iris control.

I think I understand it now.

The iris motor is smaller then the other two motors.

Do you have a guess as to how much current the iris motor draws?

I have an older color CCTV color camera that has an auto iris output. ( Javelin Model JE3362 )

It's spec says,

"Video: luma video signal (Y only) 0.7V p-p/high impedance"

"Power: DC+12V (40mA max)"

It would be great if I could get this color camera to work with the big lens.

The Javelin camera data:

Image sensor: He98241 2/3" single layer MOS color image sensor. 576 (H) X 485 (V) pixels.

Horiz. resolution: 340 lines or more.

Minimum illumination: 15 lux.

Lens mount: C-mount.

Think I could get these two to play nice together?

What would I need to get my lens to mount on this C-mount camera?

Good to see ya back.

Yes .... it appears the camera imager is in place and whole.

I see a light shine back at me.

This is a B/W camera?

Now as far as the lens goes ....

Are you confident the focus and the zoom should be fed with 12VDC?

The lens can actually says, " DC12V ".

One would think if labeled on the outside of the device, it would reference the feed voltage for that device.

Do you feel I should go ahead and test the focus and zoom functions with 12VDC?

If possible, I would start with a lower voltage as you mentioned earlier.

Now the iris ...

"If you're curious to see what's what, you can probably do a quick check with a test meter to confirm the connections (red would almost certainly be +Ve voltage, and White the Video connection."

I guess I don't understand the "White the Video connection".

If video is on the white, then to operate the iris motor do you apply 12VDC across the red and the shield?

Is the voltage reversed to change directions ... like the focus and zoom?

If the camera is controlling the iris motor with the red and shield, what is the purpose of the white (video) wire?

Somehow I think I got this part wrong ....

Yes.

In the photo with the two plugs .... the lower plug labled "plugs into camera", appears to control the iris.

The other plug appears to control the zoom and focus.

So before you took it apart I assume you tried to hook it up??

No, I have not put any power to it.

The only taking apart I have done is to remove the lens from the camera, and remove the can cover off the lens.

The focus and zoom are controlled from a plug connection.

I have nothing to plug it in to.

I may have to make a controller.

The camera may give some hints as to how the auto iris is controlled.

I'm pretty uneducated in the camera/lens area.

Cooperman is the man with the answers.

Ok, I'll try again ....

You wanted to identify the camera first.

Here are some pics:

If you would like more pics, just let me know.

I have a very limited on-line file storage area.

So once your see these pics, save them if you want to view them again.

Then I will remove them to make room for more.

Now, to answer the rest of your questions in your last post ....

"If you remove the lens, is the imager inside the camera a shiny circle?"

Yes.

It is circular, looks flat, and appears to be a 'lens'.

"Have a look at the back of the camera - do you see any small holes / adjusters marked 'T', 'B' or 'F' ?"

No, I see none.

"If the lens has two accessible 'pots' marked with "Alc" and "Level", then it is a conventional AI type auto iris lens."

No. .... if by saying "accessible" you mean, "Can be adjusted thru a hole in the can cover"

There is one hole in the can cover that is meant for providing screwdriver adjustment on a pot located on a small pcb mounted inside the can.

That is the pcb that is connected to the 2-wire shielded cable that plugs in the back of the camera.

"You could use a basic regulated voltage selectable power supply unit, and set it initially to 6v DC, just for initial testing."

I don't have alot for regulated power supplies.

I know I do have a 12VDC regulated supply ...

A little digging around, and I may come up with something else.

What would the current requirement be for testing the motors?

"From what you've described, it sounds like the Zoom and Focus motors are each driven with a pair of conductors (so four wires in total)."

Yes, it appears that way.

I see 3 motors total.

One is smaller then the other two.

Those two look identical, and are fed from an identical looking pcb.

Looking at the 3 motors and their gearing, I see three separate functions.

The three motors and their associated gearing lead to three separate gear rings.

Here is a pic showing all three rings.

#1 = Focus?

#2 = Zoom?

#3 = Iris?

The small motor runs gear ring #3, and its circuity has the cable that plugs into the camera.

Gear ring #2 has the red & orange wires feeding its motor's circuitry.

Gear ring #1 has the yellow & brown wires feeding its motor's circuitry.

I noticed that all 3 motors say, "12VDC" on the motor end.

And the can has a sticker that says, "DC12V". (shown on one of the pics above)

Ok, enough for now ....whew ......

Thanks .....

Hey Cooperman .....

Check your PMs.

I sent ya a PM with lots of pics.

Let me know if ya didn't get it.

Sounds like your having an interesting time trying to work out whats what!

Ya, this is a very interesting lens ....

I think you need to establish what the camera is first of all.

OK, I will get some info together, maybe a pic or two, and get back to you.

There is a reasonable chance that the camera can be made to work, although if you have any doubt at all as to what connections to make, don't try something to see if it will work. You may just end up killing it stone dead, and that would be a shame!

I haven't applied voltage to anything yet.

I'm going to follow those wires around a little more first.

A closer look is in order here before doing anything.

I'll see what I got around for a power supply.

Thanks for all the help!

I'll be getting back to you.

more info on the lens ....

When I removed the lens from the camera, I found a sticker that says 12 VDC.

The lens wiring has a cord, and a group of 4 wires coming out of it.

The cord is a shielded 2-wire cord, with a plug on the end that plugs into the camera. (focus?)

One wire is red, the other is white.

The shield is connected to the plug also. (ground?)

The group of 4 wires has a plug that does not plug into the camera. (zoom?)

The plug converts it to 3-wire, cause two of the wires, orange and brown, are soldered together on the same plug pin.

The other two wires, one red and one yellow, are on separate pins.

I would guess that the shielded 2-wire cord controls the focus, and it is done by putting 12VDC across the red and white wires.

Reversing the 12VDC reverses the direction.

Hopefully, there are internal endstop limits. ( Ya'd think there would be!! )

I would guess the other plug would control the zoom. ( How'm I doin so far? )

Now the zoom ...

This is where I am confused/cautious ...

I can see a couple of possibilities for how this could be connected.

12VDC arcoss Orange/brown and red = zoom one way ....

12VDC arcoss Orange/brown and yellow = zoom other way ....

But if that is true, what polarity is the 12DVC connected?

Hmmmm ..... any help there Cooperman?

Thanks for the response!!

The Fujinon lens you've got is actually quite a nice bit of glass ( 25+ years ago, I used to have the manual zoom version, and I may even still have a motorised one knocking around somewhere).

Got any info on the wiring of that lens??

The cord from the lens plugs in the back of the camera.

I would have to know what the requirements are ... voltages, AC or DC, etc.

And what wires do what function.

I assume both the zoom and the focus are involved ... correct?

On an original 1" camera, it would have given a maximum 4X magnification (if you fit it onto a modern 1/3" camera it will provide 2.5x - 12.5x magnification). Being a larger format lens, if it's in good working order, it can equally be used on a 2/3", 1/2", 1/3" or 1/4" format camera with very good results, if you so wish.

I got an old camera, but not as old as the Motorola, I could use to test it with.

The camera spec sheet says it has a 2/3" image sensor".

The included lens is a 25mm, f1.4, C-mount, and the box says, "1" format".

Will the Fujinon lens mount on this camera?

When it comes to cameras & lens, I have very limited understanding.

But I can learn.

Thanks for the help!!

OK, I found some print on the lens cover ....

Fujinon TV zoom lens C5x20A - SND2

I found nothing on Google that would give me info on it.

About 10 years ago, I made a swap with a friend of mine.

He got my very old Silver King chain saw.

I got his very old serveillance camera.

Years before that, he had got it from the place where he worked.

The company went belly up, and his boss told him he could have it.

It has just been sitting on a shelf since we made the swap.

Today I dragged it down from the shelf to look it over.

Maybe some of you guys will get a laugh out of it.

You could also explain a little more about exactly what I got.

The camera:

It's a Motorala 843M.

Model S1163A

117v - 60Hz - 17 Watts

The darn thing is large ... measures 13.5" X 6" X 2.5".

The lens:

Fujion Lens TV-2

1:1.8/20-100

C5X20

FUJI Photo Optical Co. 192369

Japan

This thing is also large.

The can comes off of it to expose all the gears and mechanisims.

The lens is large, and measures a good 2.5" across.

The case:

A weather box.

Not very weather tight, and the glass is missing.

The mount:

It came with a HUGE pan/tilt mechanism.

Motorola V330APT

24VAC - 70 Watts - max load = 35 lb.

The thing is so heavy, I can hardly pick it up.

There is also some cords, a joystick box, and a push button box for auto pan.

I found mention of the camera using Google, but no real info.

The lens data is very confusing for me.

Can someone explain to me what the numbers mean?

This is obviously a zoom lens, but what does it compare to?

The "20-100" is a refernce to the magnification?

When you look at camcorders, the magnification is listed in "X" zoom.

Like my present camcorder is listed as 22X zoom.

But when you look at CCTV cameras, the magnification is usually listed as "mm" varifocal.

I get confused.

Anybody got a conversion chart?

Any comments on the camera/lens/mount?

Its a genuine card from a legitimate source and card appears to be genuine according to the geo fake card URL.

Do you have a link for that "geo fake card URL"?

I believe my Geo card is a real one, but I want to check it out.

After much thought, I built a PC for the GeoVision GV800-8 board I had decided would meet my needs.

The case: Antec Solution SLK1650 Beige Steel ATX Mini Tower Computer Case 350W Power Supply.

I love it. It is roomy, but not huge.

Everything fits well. It has a large rear fan.

The top and sides are independent, and easily removed.

The motherboard: Abit IS7-E2.

Known brand, handles a P4, Intel chipset, and chipset cooler is a large heat sink with no fan.

The heat sink does not get hot, and there is no fan to go bad.

It supports two SATA drives and EIDE drives as well.

It has onboard sound, and onboard lan.

I own 3 of these boards and have no complaints so far. They are rock solid.

The CPU: P4 2.8 GHZ, 512 Cache, 800MHZ FSB, with hyperthreading. Mfg part# RK80532PG072512

This is one of the most powerful P4 CPUs available with the Northwood core.

It runs much cooler and uses less watts then the next generation of P4 ( Prescot ) ... also known as 'Presc HOT'.

The CPU cooler: MassCool 9T488B1M3G. It is a little overkill for this processor, but a very nice unit.

The fan is not real quiet, but I should be able to drop the fan speed considerably, and that will quiet it down.

I am presently looking into temperature sensing fan speed controllers.

The Video Card: eVGA 256-A8-N341-L2 Geforce 6200 256MB 64-bit DDR AGP 4X/8X.

This is a DirectX 9 compiant card, and should give enough power to do the job.

It has a large heatsink with no fan. The heat sink gets warm, but not worrysome hot.

No fan to go bad.

The Memory: 1 Gig of Corsair DDR400. ( 2 X 512 Dual chanel kit )

HDD is really dependent on the needs of the user.

I think that covers the essentials.

I had some troubles until I got the Geo settings proper. ( Thanks again Rory )

I still had some problems until I got the DirectX 9 compliant card in place.

That really made the diference!!

I put the card in yesterday, and so far it seems all of my problems just .... went away.

A prebuilt PC may be cheaper, but I am please with my decisions on what is in this GeoPC.

However I am a GeoNoob, so I may have overlooked many pitfalls yet to be discovered.

YES!! That did it alright.

Thanks alot Rory!!!

You made my day! This forum ROCKS!

I been pullin my hair out for a couple of weeks now tryin to figure this out!

The View Log still has a little jitter, but the saved avi file is jitter free, with pre record on.

Now I can start playin around with the other settings again to see what this thing will do.

I am still wondering what to expect as I connect more cameras in motion detect mode.

Like I said in my previous post ....

"So with that in mind, does that mean if I want to set up 7 more cameras for motion detect only, that I will always see the jitter even if only one camera sees motion and records?"

I thought the available frame rate would not be used if the camera was not recording.

You know.... if I had 8 cameras hooked up and activated for motion, that I would have plenty of frame rate if only one or two were recording.

This does not appear to be true huh?

Or does the software handle things different when there are cameras hooked to the activated inputs?

Turning off pre record did not help .... but ...

I think the "Camera/Audio Install menu item ... then the Activate button" is the problem!!

All 8 were checked.

I thought that area was for audio only.

Without the pre record I don't get much of a recording, but from what I've seen so far ... I think you hit it right on the head.

I have turned pre record back on, and will report back the results.

But yes indeed, all camera inputs must have been on.

In the main screen monitor button, I now only see camera 1 as a turn on option.

No other cameras show in the configuration screen either.

So with that in mind, does that mean if I want to set up 7 more cameras for motion detect only, that I will always see the jitter even if only one camera sees motion and records?

TESTING .......

make sure you have only camera input 1 enabled, the rest must be disabled or it will use up the total fps. Also play with the pre record or disable it as that can cause the jitter you are experiencing also, the file is so short it is hard to tell though.

To disable camera 2 thru 8 am I correct it is done by:

System Configuration > Camera 2 ( thru 8 ) > Monitor Control ... and uncheck the "Rec Video" box?

Then when I start monitoring, I use the main screen "monitor" button and set the check mark by camera 1 only.

I have now stopped the pre record, and am testing.

If the problem is still present, I will post a longer example.

Thanks to the admins for moving the thread.

Yes, I think I have proper hardware.

I just need to get a DirectX 9 compliant video card.

One is on the way ... should be here in a day or two.

But I do not feel that is the problem, because I tested it with a compliant card.

"What are the settings on the other camera inputs?"

I just checked the other camera settings.

They were set on record on motion.

I unchecked the 'record' box.

They shouldn't have been doing anything with no input... I figured.

They are off now .... sure would be nice if it was that simple to fix.

I only have camera 1 input in use at this time.

All others are not being used and are not connected.

I did test it with camera 1 on motion detect, and camera 2 on continous ... both connected to the same camera.

A little AGC adjust, and both came into the card just fine.

Problem still was present tho.

I don't see any jitter when there is no motion.

The recording is there, but nothing is moving.... just as it should be.

Opps, looks like I started this thread in the wrong area.

It should have been in the "DVR cards and software - PC based" section.

Can an admin maybe move it? ....

Hello ... first post here.

I am new to GeoVision, and have a question/problem.

Should the recorded avi file be as smooth as the input, or is a certain amount of jitter normal?

I ask this realizing that cards have frame rate limitations.

So far, I have been told the output should be smooth.

I am using a GV800-8 card, using one camera, and can't seem to get a smooth output file.

I have tried about everything I can think of, and am becoming discouraged.

I'm not trying anything fancy, just the main system and viewlog.

This is a new card purchased in December of 2005, v3.01.

The OS is XP pro, DirectX 9c, with SP1 installed.

The PC is new, ( I built it ) with the following specs:

GV 800-8 card w/v7.04 software ( I did a successful upgrade to v7.05, but it did not help the problem )

MB - Abit IS7-E2

Chipset - Intel 82865PE (MCH ) + 82801EB (ICH5)

CPU - P4 2.8 Northwood w/hyperthreading - 800MHz FSB

Ram - 1 GB @ 400MHz

Video - GeForce4 Ti4800se ( Not DirectX compliant card, but I did try a GeForce 6800 card and it did not help )

HDD - Western Digital WD1200JB - partitioned into a 20 GB system drive, and a 92 GB data drive - NFTS both drives )

I have also tried using two different HDD for system and data, and the results were the same.

I have tried the GV800 card in another similar PC, and the results were the same.

The camera I am using for input is a camcorder.

I am using the RCA video out jack from a Samsung SCW71 Camcorder. ( no tape in the camcorder )

It has a 22X optical zoom, and I am shooting thru a window, using full optical zoom, to a target about 1100 feet away.

It has been great on my VHS recorder using extended play.

No jitter at all.

The picture also comes into the GV800 jitter free, it looks excellent.

But any playback I get from the GV800 has jitter.

The saved file played back on another PC is also jittery.

I have tried using the video out from a VHS player and recording TV onto the GeoVision system, and still have the jitter in the recorded file.

So I feel I can not blame the camera.

It is not the motion controls fault, because the results are the same when I record on continous.

My present Geo settings are: ( but I have tried every combination I can think off )

Video Source = NTSC_M 640x480

No audio has been set up or connected.

Performance = Record Master .... using GeoMpg4

System Configuration/General Settings:

Enable Directdraw Overlay ( Disable makes not difference, and yes I did a system restart )

Enable De-Interlace Render ( Disable makes not difference, and yes I did a system restart )

Premotion Record = Extra

Total Frames = 90 .... Frames/Sec = 30

Post Record = 5 sec

Camera 1:

Record Quality = 5

Frames/Sec = High

Record Video Upper Limit = Set Upper Limit = Frames/sec = 30

Here is an example of my VHS recording converted to a wmv file.

Quality is poor, because I recorded VHS long play, played back on another VHS machine, captured on a PC, and saved to a small mpg file. ( I only have 5 meg of online storage available to me )

VHS_Example

Here is the same video captured with the GV800.

GV800_Example

Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!