chesterfield

So far for the £8k budget I have: 2 x 5mp domes - (5.0MP-HD-Dome-DN) - or similar compatible equivalent - both mounted outdoor. 4 x 3mp domes - (3.0MP-HD-Dome-DN) or similar compatible device. 1 for indoor, 3 for outdoor. 1 x 3mp camera - (3.0MP-HD-DN) or similar compatible device, for use in garage. 1 x Standard license for Avigilon Control Center (not enterprise) for 8 cameras. 8C-HD-NVMS-STD However, the internal dome may be 2mp (2.0MP-HD-H264-DC1) depending on whether it can cover the area I want. Room is 7m x 5m (23' x 16'5") with one external french door. garage is currently 5.7m x 5.6m (18'9" by 18'5) so this too could possibly be done by a 2mp camera, but would prefer the 3mp I think. In time this is going to be 14.5m x 6.5m (47'7" x 21'4") so will probably need an extra camera at the opposite end. (not included in the present budget) All network cable, POE switches and the server are excluded from the budget. I can provide these as I already have them, with the exception of the server, that can either be provided by me, or by the installer depending on what they want to charge for it. I full understand that no hardware support for the server would be provided if I provided this. So if theirs isn't that much more Id probably go for that depending on what warranty they provide with it. As and when the building is extended, I will have to add expansion licenses for the number of cameras, and obviously cameras themselves. The budget of £8k is for the items listed at the top. Though I reckon at a push I may be able to get a server in the budget possibly, though if I want to record say a month at a time, Id probably need to spec a bit more for the HDD space. Edited to add: I have a room available with comms cabinet ready to accept all connections, longest run of cat 5e at present would be be around 30/40m in either direction of the switch. Hope that helps

Did I state I was going to install the system myself? Im capable of setting up a serve, no problem. Even the ground floor wiring, and network assembly. But I have vertigo, so cant even get to the top of a first floor ladder. Theres no way Id be installing any high mounted cameras myself. Just looking for some way of testing the retailers quotes who sell it me. Did you miss the bit where I stated I would be buying it from an installer? We managed that much in the last financial year. As our industry is managing relationships between the consumer and the direct supplier, that money doesnt pass through out accounts, therefor we dont have to declare it as revenue. Only our direct invoices to suppliers. This way we can still lodge abreviated accounts in the UK. Its a totally different financial model to the supplier>distributor>deaaler>consumer model. I also learnt many years ago there is no point lying on the internet. Its there for ever, for everyone to see and if you do it, one day it will bite you in the backside. So its best not to. I wasnt the one who brought up my car/s. Somebody told me that when buying a that model of car its not as easy as buying a kia you have to do more digging. Actually I do have some first hand experience in that, so I pointed out he was wrong. Ive hardly flaunted it. Other people have mentioned it more than I have. Someone else stated that unless I was a port/etc I wouldnt be getting avigilon in the UK. I can see Avigilon UKs contribution to the overall corporations revenue, and I have a rough estimate of what my system will cost. I have also found two retailers specifically advertising Avigilon installations and equipment (though of course without prices) which is why I have contacted them for quotes. One of them will get my order.

If you were asking the question about my business on a forum specifically dedicated to my business, then I may oblige. As however I have discussed the valuables I wish to protect, and the fact I have no cctv security system, I would rather not pass out my business name as those who view this forum as a guest could do all the research they like if you get my drift.. What I can say is that our margins run at around 1-1.5%, so while the profits are low, we have the volume over value. We have to sell our services, as that is sometimes the only way to distinguis our products from the competition. Our supply chain is Supplier > to customer. We broker the deal betwen the two. The customers contract is direct with the supplier. We assist in the process making commissions from the supplier, the customer then has our services during the period of the contract they have with the supplier. The customer is free to contract direct with the supplier not using our services at all if they wish. However in the majority of the cases they go through us as the services we provide save them time/money.

I own a business within the UK dealing specifically with the corporate and SME (small medium enterprise) sectors. So work within an industry where customers can (and do) shop around. I suppose as our industry has always been one where customers can shop around, we havent had to adapt to the new age of customers being able to research everything online. Its always been the case that they can find other prices. Today they can just find them quicker. This has raised issues for our industry in terms of being able to quote quickly, and even embracing online technologies ourselves, even for the corporate and SME sector. In terms of the cctv area, and especially as manufacturers do seem to be moving from corporate to also developing products for the SME, then within the UK in my experience they will find it difficult if these smaller businesses can not test the value of quotes either online or by phone etc. As for businesses having to deal with consumers shopping around, perhaps adding the majority of margin into items that cannot possibly be tested online - the expertise and knowledge. That may mean DIY customers purchases result in very little margin, however oncethey run into trouble they may well return to the same place to purchase that, which cant possibly be bought online. Having not owned a cctv business I have no first hand experience of the issue so just surmising what I would do given the same situation.

Well I guess the two companies I have contacted that specifically adevrtise Avigilon kit, that are currently working on instalation designs and quotes must be using the Avigilon logo and products without permission then. As my "small domestic order" will be for about 0.5% of the ENTIRE Avigilon UK sales so far this year. Im fairly certain If I want the kit, Ill get it. Money Talks. Would you like a bet? Neither of the companies I have contacted is in Kent. Trying to bargain after the install would be a little strange, but maybe thats how you bargain. It would explain your business accumen for certain. There is a negotiation period with any sale. Unless I like the price there and then, and Ill accept it. Ive done both. If the quote comes back around my ball park figure that Ive come to myself, then Ill just accept it. If I think there may be some wiggle room Ill negotiate. If the installer cant go as low as Id like, then they can either decline the job, or I need to re-evaluate my budget. Published figures for 2011 shows third quarter gross revenue of about $42m, so $60m for the year sounds about right. Net before taxes stod aroun $2.2m I believe. Considering my company managed over £160m ($250m) worth of business in 2011, those sort of numbers dont really make me jump out of my seat. The brokers worked their magic coming up with the numbers they did when it floated by rasing the capital they did based on the 2010 figures too, but thats a whole other topic. Either way, Ive lost count now of the number of times Ive said this, but here again... I do not want to buy Avigilon online. Is that clear enough? If I buy Avigilon, it will be through a retailer/installer. My only point/suggestion/accusation was that the hiding of the MSRP online plays into the hands of dealers that do not have an efficient supply chain and have no option other than to sell way above MSRP. If the MSRP was public, these installers would find it difficult to compete with others that can buy larger numbers. i.e. they would have the same problem that they have with online retailers now, just that the kit would not be available online. So can we leave the Avigilon debate now? If I get it, Ill let you know. If I dont Ill let you know why. Is there any chance of discussing how small businesses should compete with online retailers? As this was stated as being one of the problems in the industry right now - so how should it be addressed?

We will have to agree to disagree I think. I can fully understand your point on government projects. They will get prices and as long as they are all close enough to each other they pick what they want. However, thats public money. Anyone with any experience of dealing with the public sector in the UK will know just how little they know about purchasing anything. They just see the numbers and its a mentality of a bottomless pit of money anyway When dealing withthe private sector, its a whole diferent game. That is their own money. They tend to be more protective over it. Larger corporations with multi million budgets wont much care, as its a tiny cost to them. However, as discussed reviously with Avigilon, their "core" system licensed for 4 cameras is now startingto aim toward the Small Business sector. If they think that in the UK small businesses wont shop online to try and save money, they are mistaken. If they cant find prices, they will compare with the quote they get from the installer offering cheaper units and cameras. They wont have security teams that can fully understand the tech behind the quote, and they will go for the cheaper option. Time will tell how well the products aimed at the small business within the UK will do with that model. I suspect the larger corporate and government installations will do quite well - especially considering we are well behind other countries in terms of IP CCTV, and the recent unrest due to economic issues is forcing people to look at upgrading. But for the SME side I wouldnt be so confident.

Congratulations on missing the entire point of the post. Ill try and make it simple. I am not saying anyone is making too much money. Its the areas in which they make it that can alter a customers perception. For a product that can be shopped online, if large margins are added to the hardware, the customer gets the impression they are being robbed, so passes up the quote. If the margin is in the service, then they see the price is good for the hardware, so immediatley view the quote favourably as they dont feel they are being robbed. I am not saying the manufacturer will sell directly to the end user. Never have suggested this. What I have suggested is why the MSRP is not made public. The ONLY reason I can see for not maiking this public, is to protect the smaller installers that cannot buy the volume to compete with larger installers. i.e. hiding from the consumer whether they are getting a good deal (or close to the suggested retail price) as advised by the manufacturer. As I have previously said, economic situations vary. Large busineses and government will sometimes shop around. They will also compare quotes. It is all dependant on the economics in each area. For example the ublic sector in the vast majority of the UK (so everything from governmenet to schools) HAS to get a minimum of three quotes and HAS to test each of those quotes (they may choose to use online methods to do so). If they cant test the value of the quote, then the quote is binned. Fact. I shop prices on the web for my business where possible. The fact I keep a good eye on the costs to my business means both my staff and I can offer better prices/quality to my customers. Its the same theory for any business regardless of size.

Never heard of either in the UK. However a quick search reveals that perhaps we have a slightly different business model in the UK for Mul_T-Loc as I can buy Mul-T-Lock from no less than about 20 local small locksmiths in about a 20 mile radius. All in a hand little list provided to me by Mul-T-Loc themselves. Here - after 30 seconds: http://www.saundersonsecurity.co.uk/acatalog/Mul_T_Lock_Single_Euro_Cylinder_MIN_EUSGL.html If I want to buy that lock, I can research its prices online and then buy it. As for the rainbow vacuum cleaner, its not used that much over here, although its sales structure is very similar to a few items sold over here, like Avon for example. Its more of a ponzi pyramid scheme than a sales model. Designed specifically for those at the top to get rich due to the hard work of those at the bottom whom all have the dream of being further up the pyramid and having people below selling for them.. As for suggesting it is the sole reason, is that an unreasonable conclusion for an end user to draw when they see coments from retailers stating that they like the model for that specific reason, and all of a sudden a retailer stops promoting (or even actively discouraging) hardware they previously sold in favour of this new brand? As I say, maybe its a different sales methodology from the US to the UK, as Ive rarely come across anything like the Avigilon model fo specifically hiding the MSRP from end users. I think smaller scale/small business customers within the UK will be a lot more difficult to sell to with that business model in the UK market. Or EU market for that matter given the state of the economy over here and in the wider Europe. I dont know if Ive made this clear or not, Im not looking to buy direct from Avigilon. If I buy Avigilon, I will be buying from an installer - however what I don't see the point in is the hiding of pricing. I can see why its an attractive model for installers, because it makes no difference if you are lower down the chain and have to buy/sell the kit above retail, whereas another installer buys enough to be able to get straight from the distributor. No installer needs to worry about customers finding cheaper prices online, as customers cant find it. So the customer doesnt know if they are getting the best deal or not. Its a model that offers protection to installers who havent got the best supply chain. Anyway, as Ive said, Im not bothred about discussing the sales model used by that supplier any more. Its clear some here like it, and some don't. Whatever floats each persons boat I suppose. The discussion had moved on to talk about differing sales models to cope with customers that shop around online and how different models can impart different impressions upon a customer. Kind of another version of the "how to avoid smart customers" but looking at the flip side of the problem and seeing how people can work "with" smart customers. I just thought it may be interesting to see different ideas. Given the current climate I thought like minded businesses would have thought that an interesting topic. ?

Hows about the comments made by some installers stating that they like the sales model from tha manufacturer specifically because it stops customers shoping online and beating ther prices? Exactly how is that a conspiracy theory when an installer has specifically stated that themselves? There was also discussion not just around that but also other sales models and how they may be adpated or altered to deal with a changing market. It appears that DIYers or more specifically customers that shop around on the internet can be a problem for the installers that operate in that area/scale of the market. There was discussion on difering techniques to deal with that issue, and how differing sales models can impart different opinions on customers while still retaining the same margins for suppliers. That specific manufacturer aside there seemed to be some healthy discussion in other areas, but meh, whatever. Im sorting out my system via a couple of installers, Ill pay what ever I end up paying. Having worked out the cost of my system would probably account for about 0.5% of Avigilons entire sales in the UK so far, Im fairly certain Ill be looked after as a customer if I choose them. If there is any further discussion on various business models from suppliers, manufacturers, installers or retailers Ill just stay away from them, its clear my views are different to those of others and Im obviously a novice in this area so Ill pass on those threads.

Admin/Mods!! Please take that IP down. Anyone could read it and try the generic passwords etc for that system. I think the OP should only give that IP to installers etc by PM that want to help her. Hope this helps... EDIT - crisis averted on the IP. Hope Tom or somebody can help you Catherine. Im sure they will come good.

In my experience at least in the UK, some larger corporates are deploying DPI switches such as ellacoyas. Even though the network could handle the camera feeds easily, I would imagine that the use of these sort of devices within a corporate network will lead to the conflicts with IT departments that Soundy mentions. Due to the way our broadband/bandwidth is charge for by the wholesalers in the UK, many ISPs still have low limits on usage. Although that applies mainly to external traffic and is outside the scope of internal networks, the same technology used to rate limit traffic across WANs is sometimes deployed on LANs. Im assuming in this case you would need to involve the IT departments to allow the traffic through.

The problem is these pre-sales tools are often not made available to the end user who wants to do their own research/spec before asking a supplier to quote for their chosen spec. Myself and the OP of this thread are end users looking to do their own research. If there wasnt so much smoke and mirror activity on pricing of various items, perhaps suppliers/retailers/installers wouldn't be wasting their time quoting for solutions and then just having the customer ring round and try to beat it. Take a well known manufacturer as an example (I know this applies to a few other manufacturers also, but their pricing is what Ive been researching), I have found that the full MRSP for all items they produce is actually available on several partners websites, including MRSP prices from as late as December. Which in itself doesn't say that much about how professional some of these partners are when it comes to security as these apparently confidential documents can be found by a rank amateur spending half an hour with google, but thats another point entirely. If all manufactuers made these MRSP lists available right from their websites, then I believe it could help the industry rather than hinder it. As an example, take the OP of this thread. They have a budget of £1000. This customer may look at reviews of cctv equipment online and see case studies for manufacturers etc etc, and decide that looks like the equipment for them. So they look at the specs of the cameras and the software online and decide what they want. They get it all written down and contact an installer that they know deals with this brand. They have them come out and quote for the installation of this equipment, only to find its way outside their budget. If they had seen the prices online at the manufacturer, they would have known this straight away and not bothered asking for a quote on that equipment. Its not to say that installer would not have been asked to do the job, they would have just been asked to quote for something that the customer knew up front would be around their budget. If a customer knows the MRSP that the manufacturer puts on their items, then when the customer gets a quote they know instantly if its in the ball park range that they expected, having seen the prices first. This means that there will be less customers taking a retailers quote and then go and get another from somebody else to check it. One of those retailers will be wasting their time and so is the customer. It also means that customers wont have to be paranoid about inviting lots of different people round to their home to quote. Who likes inviting a stream of strangers round their houses specifically to look at weak areas in their security and what valueables need covering?

He said post, not thread. At least that was my understanding.

Aww dont delete this thread. I was hoping to finaly get people to realise Im not a troll The weekend is almost here - maybe we are all just fed up having to go back to work after the festive season. I know I am

I dont want to know exactly how much the installer is making out of me, I just want to know whether Im being ripped off for it. Take your quote to me for example on the Axis Camera. It was $200 more than I could find it online. Am I prepared to pay $200 for someone with your knowledge and expertise to provide the kit, yes probably. Im not sayong installers should be charities and give their knowledge and goods away for zero profit, but the fact there are people making comments about avigilon purely based around their ability to sell a product that a customer cant find prices on, does little to impress and end consumer. As for Avigilon not aiming at the lower end of the market, it seems that newer products coming out are certainly aiming lower down the market than before. The core version of their software with 4 camera licenses, no remote view etc etc.. Doesnt sound like the usual high end installations. Also the fact is, retailers such as yourself and others will only have a finite number of high end large scale installations - when they have all been done, or are serviced by other dealers - who next? Or is your business model to target only one sector of the industry during a recession?

Either the retailer I buy from, or myself with the help of a CCTV installer. Im not bying from Canada, Im buying from a retailer in the UK. Where they get it from is their business, but if my transaction takes place with a UK/EU company Im covered. i can put you in touch with two avigilon installers ( they are avigilon employed not partners) but i dont think i will get a christmas card from them next year if i did. I dont think Im getting ripped off. Indeed I dont even know the UK price yet. Ive played with the demos, Ive read about the devices Im interested in and Ive seen the MSRP list from Avigilon themselves. Ive accounted for "rip off britain" where prices dont seem to translate according to the exchange rate, and Im happy with the price. I know I wont get a 16 camera system. Having looked at the specs of various cameras and the differing software, then I think for now, 2 x 5mp cameras and maybe 5 x 3mp cameras (2 of which will be indoor). Those with the 8 camera Standard version of the software will be plenty for now. Im hopeful that will come in around or under the £8k budget. Im not including any server hardware in those costs either at present. If I ever go over the 8 cameras, then Id have to buy the licenses to do so, but I may as well start with something thats more what I need, rather than what I want I hope this clears things up for people, Im not here just to troll, I am actually serious about having a decent security system, and having played with Avigilon I think its what I want, and Im prepared for the costs. Ive also run it past the "boss" currently carrying our first child, and got the stamp of approval It cerainly wasnt ford escort money, and its a damn sight quicker Ill give you that, but built better? Hmmm. You wouldnt believe the trouble I had convincing the dealer that flaking paint in the door shuts should be covered under warranty Mind you they are 10x better than my experience with Jaguar. Them I really could moan about So far (touch wood) Land Rover has been a lot better, even though the RR is screwed together just next door to the Jag.

Tony Martin got out eventually Numb-Nuts I was hoping that this new government may have gone the whole hog and let you protect your own home without fear of persecution. I guess the liberals diluted that bit though. Though there have been a few people who stabbed burglars let off recently. There may be hope yet. Back to topic though - here is one maybe the installers here can answer, what about buying second hand items? I know there wouldnt be a warranty to speak of, but what are the views on quality second hand kit/items without a warranty, vs a basic new system with a warranty?

This may be a good model for some, but for those that are getting upset at customers shopping online and finding cheaper prices, then what I suggested is to perhaps only markup the items that the customer cannot price online. In this case the installers expertise and knowledge. As an example lets take a car tyre. Its a basic example but hopefully I can demonstrate the concept. A customer knows from looking online they can get the tyre they want for $200. You ask a local tyre guy to quote, and he says its $220 for the tyre, plus $3 for fitting. You instantly feel that the guy is robbing you as you know the tyre can be had for $20 less. The customer could form an opinion about that tyre shop and pass this opinion on to others. However, if the quote had been $200 for the tyre and $23 to fit, then the customer sees that the tyre price is reasonable but the fitting seems expensive. It is then up to the tyre shop to sell the benefits of having the tyre installed by them. They can still offer the same waranties on the tyre, as they have the same margin on the whole job, plus they can sell this as offering a warranty on a $200 tyre that the wouldnt get if they bought the tyre online, and either way they would still have to pay $23 for the fitting (and the tyre shop wouldnt have to offer the warranty). I know its not the best of examples, and its not a practice that will work for all businesses, so I appreciate thatall your points above are valid. My view is that a manufacturer/distributor hiding pricing of goods from end users simply breeds a feeling of mistrust amongst end users and the retailers. For larger corporate customers this is not a problem, as they are not the sort of client that does shopping around or DIY installations etc. They aren't bothered so much about the cost as in many cases it is peanuts in their overall budget, for them quality is above cost in terms of importance. However, as manufacturers move toward the smaller end of the market, this hidden pricing scheme may make the equipment harder to sell in that area. We all know consumers shop around, we probably all do it ourselves. In todays climate we all want to check that we are getting a good deal. I consider myself half way toward this lower end of the market (although my spend is probably at the low end). I want a quality system tha will be of use if I do have a break in. I know this quality will cost me, hence my larger than normal budget for domestic. However I do still have a budget that I dont really want to exceed. Quality and price are about on par for me. Then there will be customers for who budget is more important than quality. These are the people that will do a lot of shoppig round. These are the ones who if they spot a cheaper price for hardware online, will throw the quote in the bin from the retailer with a higher priced hardware. Also if they cant find prices online they may just walk past that manufacturer alltogether as they cant "test" the quotes they are given. Dont get me wrong, I work in an industry where customers can go direct for prices and then try to beat me down on price, and it is a pain when you have spent ages working on a quote only to get a call saying "I found it cheaper online so I bought it from them" It is infuriating, but there are things we can do to prevent it, or at least sell our services to the customer in order to justify the extra cost. Im not looking to be a troll, or pick fights with anyone here, just expressing my views as an end user and hoping to gain some insight.

There are several cctv retailers selling Avigilon software in the UK. And told by Avigilon partners that they were all inferior and I would have problems with them (nice ballanced view there) Sorry, but all goods sold within the UK, regardless of where they are manufactured are covered by our consumer law and EU law. As an example, Xbox's over here suffering the red ring of death are replaced/repaired up to the age of 3 years. Our sale of goods act covers products for up to 6 years, if the UK retailer has to import them, and then sells them here, the law protects the end consumer and the retailer in the UK must abide by the Sale of Goods act regardless of where the item came from. Again, you do not understand the UK sale of goods act. Any defect as a result of incorrect installation is not covered. The retailer would have to prove that the defect was due to incorrect installation to avoid warranty. If the RJ45 port or power supply develops a fault they cannot for example refuse to cover the device because I stuck it to the ceiling using double sided tape. Our consumer laws offer a LOT more protection than most outher countries. how with not being a avigilon partner.If I have a licensed version of the software, I can download the updates straight from Avigilon. Or indeed I can get them from the retailer. I think you (and others) have misconstrued my intentions. I am not wishing to purchase direct from Avigilon, I have no intention of being a partner. If I did, I would buy a partner business, but thats not something Im interested in. If I decide to go for Avigilon, I WILL be buying from a retailer. The only issue I have is why Avigilon bother to produce a MSRP list if they have no intention of making it public. All will become clear when I get receive quotes back from UK retailers. Then we will see why the MSRP is kept hidden, and just how much margin these retailers are adding to the products. As Ive said, Im running with a budget of up to £8K or about $13,000 for a domestic system. Im fairly confident I can get an AVigilon setup for that, and one which will allow me to expand as the property grows. The issue is where to buy it from, and who is wanting to rip me off and who isnt. If anyone is willing to sell me the software license right now they can PM me a price and Ill do a deal right now if I like it. However, Avigilon is so shrouded in secrecy I dont even know if I can buy it from a retailer overseas or not?

The fact an installer has split this topic and given it the title they have says enough about the attitude toward discussing this topic that person/moderator has. How incredibly childish. Shows a complete and utter disregard for an end users queries and discussion. The fact that when I asked for advice and help with a new installation all I got was Avigilon rammed down my throat was evidence enough that people are shifting to this just because they get to hide prices from consumers says an awful lot about the ethics of those people too. The software I am quite capable of updating myself. If there were any problems with hardware, I would return to the seller. In the EU all electrical appliances must be sold with a 2 year manufacturer warranty. We also have the sale of goods act, so it doesnt much matter who sells me the device, Im covered against manufactiring defects and faults for 2 years. I know that I need to contact the UK, and I know that I can only buy from a retailer. What I can do now Im in possesion of the MRSP is find a retailer that doesnt want to rip me off. Thats all. What Im suggesting is that some installers are jumping in to bed with manufacturers like this, just because they get to hide prices from the end users and rip them off. The fact that even sugesting this is met with such vicious hostility only adds to that assumption. There are also numerous quotes from installers and integrators suggesting the very same thing..

Dave will have replied to your email by now. it will be along the lines of we do not supply to end users or trained installers. they will not deal with you direct. looking though your posts it sounds as if you are looking to buy the equipment yourself and find an installer to fit it for you.... that in is self is a problem. Havent' emailed Dave, Im asking for quotes from those that do sell the equipmet. As I say, it will be inetersting to see how far adrift from the MSRP the prices are from the installers. Then we will see the real reason for keeping the prices apparently hidden from the end consumer...

Nothing wrong with it. But if the customer goes and finds cheaper hardware, then its up to you to explain the differences in charges and sell your services as a justification for the price difference. Its a little hypocritical to call my view utopian, and then moan when a customer shops round to get cheaper hardware than the prices quoted by an installer adding margins in both areas. Really? How very presumptuous. FYI I do run my own business, and although not in the CCTV area, it is in a sector that can make margins on the goods or the services. We give our services for free and make money on the goods. There are others in our industry that do it the other way round, and then there are those that do both. Its the ones doing both that are losing clients in this climate, and then moaning about the clients shoping around. But then again I dont work with suppliers that keep their prices a secret from the end user just to line the pockets of the middle men

Exactly my point, but some installers/integrators are geting upset that customers can buy products online, hence falling in love wth manufacturers that hide pricing from the end users, so they can markup the equipmet AND the labour. There is a difference between anything and everything. Markup everything and you will get customers trying to find it cheaper. Sell the products cheaper and markup your labour and the customer can see you arent riping them off on the hardware. In my view thats more likely to end up in a sale, as the customer can see what they are paying for. YOur service and knowledge, which is something they CANT buy online. So instalers/integrators dont blame a customer for wanting to save a few dollars, but have threads on how to avoid "smart" customers and love setups tha hide prices from a customer so they can add hidden margins and the customer has no choice? I guess these customers arent facing the same hardships as everyone else are they? Take for example when I posted a section of the MSRP list for avigilon th other day - it was removed, even though it is publicly available using google. The only possible explanation for this, is that installers dont want customers seeing the prices as they are inflating them. Thats the real reason behind the jump to such manufacturers that hide prices. I now have the full MSRP, so it will be interesting to see when I get my quotes just why the retailers love the fact that I dont know the real MSRP (or at least thts whet they think). As I say, if installers want to bang on about their expertise, then thats what they should sell and not get all upset when a customer finds cheaper hardware, instead of burning the candle at both ends...

So more or less justifying the reasoning behind installers loving the pricing model used by manufaturers that sheild their prices from the end consumer. That way, no matter where you are in the supply chain, its very hard for a customer to find prices to compare. Sounds like the installers/integrators need to decide whether they want to make money from their knowledge and skills of installing CCTV or make money from the hardware. Take the example of the $300 camera being marked up to $350. That makes it 75% more expensive than the customer can find online. If the integrator had not marked up the camera, then the price is only 50% higher. Still quite a margin in the customers eyes, but not the 75% it was before. Then its up to the integrator to sell their services and expert knowledge and show the customer thats what they are paying for. Trying to make money at both ends, its no surprise that a lot of customers are just buying online and going DIY. The large corporations will still buy through and use the services of installers and integrators etc. They can write off the taxes (VAT in the UK) and also offset the cost against their corporation tax. Plus the CCTV cost is probably peanuts in their overal budget, so the difference of a few thousand dollars isnt really that much. To the smaller business, in this economic climate, price will be very high on the list of priorities, so it would be wise if the installer could keep the price of their equipment as low as possible. Load the margin you would have made on the cameras into the labour or maintenance contract costs, then it doesnt matter of the customer buys their equipment online - you still make your margin. And you are then removing all margin from the one item the customer can check prices on. They can hardly compare your maintenance contract with someone else unless they have all the specifics of it, and go to the trouble of geting the specifics of somebody elses.

So if you installed the camera you wouldn't charge the service call for a faulty camera?