rory

Same power same beam angles. After having used Infrared for a decade, even wide beams and lower powered, i was not impressed with this white light, and neither were the cameras - honestly I will never use white LEDs again.

Rory, I don't agree here. As I wrote above, IR LED illumination is less in power efficiency in 50-100 times than discharge lamps of visible light. Thus to get the same equivalent light flux for a camera in IR we should spend in 50-100 times more electric power than using discharge lamp of visible light. Is is a real fact confirmed in theory and practice. But this fact is not obvious. Each camera needs 12V*0.2=2.4W for IR. Although IR flux is less in sum but it is used economically for illuminating camera FOV only, therefore we can't get this benefits in practice. But using visible light LEDs instead of IR we can spend in 10-20 times less electric power to get the same image quality. Visible light LEDs has worse light efficiency than discharge lamp therefore we get 10-20 times difference instead of 50-100 times. I made such tests. I made such calculations. I even made Software and methodology. It is 100% true fact. You could got different result becouse of many factors such as working current, voltage drop, beam angle, LED type... But strict test gives visible LED advantage. Well the ones I used were from Raytek, and the light output even according to them is less than IR. Really, IR blows it away in my experience, perhaps not on paper, but out there in the field.

Better yet, they could just wear a mask and then all cameras are next to useless ...

Depends, are you having any problems with it now? There is a major upgrade to the local search/playback, but nothing earthshaking. I would start by checking out the distributor site for that DVR first, which would be Gen IV (Intellicam USA).

Regarding Visible Light in replacement of IR. By all means, a nice big powerful dusk to dawn will do the job, but in my experience white LED lights suck. IN fact the manufacturer even tells you they are 20% less light for the camera than the equivalent in Infrared. I had a client who used the latest and greatest Extreme gear for years, some went bad (one bad batch) and so decided to change it, and as I was so tired of working in the dark figured lets try some visible light. Great, no, not really. $700 a pop (x3) and the glare and pain on the eyes from that thing is torture, yet the camera barely sees the same light we do. Even bought the CNB Monalisa Domes, still sucks. We had the CNBs set to around 3mm, the White LEDs are approx 60 degrees, so yes some big black spaces as expected, but even more than with IR. It just doesnt look right, a cheap dusk to dawn would have blown it away with less visible glare. Anyway, bottom line is client got tired of all that bright glare after a month and decided to throw up some $2500 Extreme IR cameras .. so as you can see even those with unlimited funds choose infrared over visible light, sometimes.

Yeah, I guess for the 1% or less of the population that want to do that, then I guess you got me there. You can do that with the Dahua DVR also, archiving over the network to a PC.

I need to clarify my last post .. yes there is never just one way to do anything, so ofcourse you can discuss the various options with a client .. or enthusiast (BTW what on earth is a CCTV enthusiast?) .. and let them decide. However you would find that most will opt for the lesser expensive option or middle of the line, and most will require at least some IR .. not ALL .. if you want to throw up some motion lights that will just end up not working anyway one night when someone actually comes to rob you .. be my guest. You could do beams and a whole ton of other things to, but you know for someone actually installing all that stuff, sounds like an awful lot of maintenance headaches down the road and alot of calls from the clients. As to IR .. robberies, murders, stabbings, shootings, rapes, are a dime a dozen here, we see it on a daily basis. So we kind of get a feel to how useful IR tends to become - no light, no video. But anyway I think I covered everything, and I showed you guys just how useful Infrared can be, when used properly.

You still seem to miss all the valid points and facts I presented .. anyway. We are talking about installing for clients here, and for security. Life is ALL about money, without it you wont eat, therefore you wont live, so yes, there is nothing else in life as important as money, nothing at all. What is your alternative approach, that instead of them spending $7300 on a 47 camera 64 channel DVR system .. you want them to go spend $50,000?? Plus all the extra money to install the high voltage lighting and the electricity spent on that every month ... LOL I guess then its a good job you dont do my bids, although I wouldnt mind if you were the competition

Really. so what point do you call the non IR cameras I also installed for years, not every camera on a job are all the same you know. Every application calls for a different solution. Thats certainly up to you, but just because you wont, doesnt mean others wont. I hope you are not relying on just cameras to stop these super criminals. I guess those magical criminals in the UK can see Infrared light so they are bad like that .

Carried on .. IR vs no IR ...

this is what people think .... were infact it is the complete opposite. ir helps the intruder Yall have magic people in the UK aye? They can see in the IR spectrum range? Also your store owners must be rich rich to leave on strong lights 24/7 BTW this is my yard, and nobody can tell me I dont need IR - in 2 camera locations I DO NEED IR. I have used all the latest and greatest here, the monalisa, heck even the BW exview bullet .. and IR it is if I want any kind of moderately clear video at night ... btw all cameras I got for free/used/broke then fixed ... the top right IR is actually a TDN IR bullet with a $400+ Extreme EX26LED. I got it for free, so might as well flood that area. I wouldn't mind installing a nice big light there, but my landlords wont let me, and I cant afford to to it anyway - electricity is expensive these days also. Note the cheap color only bullets where there is alot of light. oh yeah, monalisa without IR .. in BW mode (not day night mode). Monalisa with IR .. see .. now i can see the criminal.

this is what people think .... were infact it is the complete opposite. ir helps the intruder So the intruder can use the IR to see in the dark? LOL

1-Inside a store where there is little to no light. 2-Warehouse with little to no light 3-Back yard with no light .. 4-any app with little to no light ... How much more justification do you need. There was a jewellery store burglary the other day, if it werent for the IR domes the criminals never would have been identified as there was just NO LIGHT. Look im as tired of IR as the next guy, my eyes are not the same anymore after years of dealing with it, but in some cases they are absolutely required. 200ma more than without if using 12VDC in the average TDN IR Bullet/Dome. What do you call adequate, what exactly is your experience with using IR? I have been doing 100% Day Night Pitch Dark jobs for a decade, pretty much everything I do is in the dark, and I have used so many different types of IR over the years, and tested over and over and over myself just to know how well or not different products work. So again, all these questions you have, yet do you actually have any experience with Infrared installations out in the field, and if so how many jobs? Did you spend the entire summer from 12am-5am testing different IR cameras like I did? Just curious In most cases no more limited than a separate IR, unless you will be spending $1000 on one of the Extreme's or Rayteks to get a 60 degree beam. And even then its not much different. You get typically 30 degree beams in the cheap color IRs, sometimes can find 60 degree beams, many come with dual beams now like 2x 30s or a 30 and a 15 . Okay so its not great, but the whole idea is to have an object for it to reflect off anyway. How wide is your camera lens to be useful to begin with, 110 degrees, 90, 60? Separate IR with 60 degree beams have less IR output than those with a 30 degree beam. So if you want further range in that case you either have to overload the power or add 2 IRs anyway. So yes separate IR still needs multiple IR to fill the entire width of a wide angle FOV. (see below of IR built in and how as you say it does not cover the entire FOV). I used 60 degree separate $1000 IR with a 2.8mm camera and I still have black edges. Many clients just dont want to add visible light. Thats it. Example would be a big light in your backyard, some people cant sleep with that (I can). Stores, they just dont want to light up the place so people can pick and choose what to steal before breaking in. A back area of a building, why have a ton of lights burning tons of current? IR LEDs from a camera burns ALOT less current. Ofcourse there are the hidden camera scenerios also, but I rarely come across those myself. Its simple, there is no light in the store or yard, they are not going to add any, so if you want to see anything then you have to use IR. thats it, simple, done. Really I believe you and tom are just so used to seeing cheap color IR cameras that it has twisted your perspective of built in Infrared. And I would agree, cheap IR cameras rarely have enough IR to fill the width of the FOV for outdoor applications, in a small room or office, no problem at all though. These are all cameras with Built in IR ... Shows comparison from cheap 4mm color IR to TDN IR with 2.8mm lens. Notice the bottom left which is a 3.8mm lens, the IR covers the entire FOV, $100 camera. Notice only one that really has any black on the sides is the 2.8mm and thats a given as that is around 110 degrees. No IR spots here ... Wow this one is a 10 year old IR camera ... Amd just for grins and giggles, $40 IR domes in a store with no lights at night. They are just that cheap, they are NOT going to add lights and run the power needed for that. cheap $40 color IR even lasts well through the hurricane tQD7uUXt388 this is a 2.8 mm FOV, not bad coverage from an IR bullet You can see just how dark it gets there when the light goes off .. AND OH YEAH the light DOES GO off .. any spike in electric that light is off for at least 5-10 minutes .. time enough to get robbed .. so tell me how I am going to see in that ... without IR LOL. Z9w_KYky3BI INoH7_a_FT0

Its not whether they are to contemplate it or not, they must first decide what camera they want to use, what camera they can afford, then the wiring and power comes after that. So yes, if they want 25x 700TVL indoor color domes @ $60 each, then those will be 12VDC. You are talking about PTZ cameras and high current draw. Same as with the Extreme (now bosch) IR cameras I only ever use 24VAC. To use 12VDC the current draw would just be too high, in the 3.6a+ range. If they add a PTZ then you add the appropriate power supply for that. You can also buy dual 12VDC and 24VAC distributed power supply boxes. What happens when they have 40+ cameras? They need multiple power supplies anyway. Most cant afford the 32 channel 24VAC power supplies to begin with, so its typical to use 16 channel boxes and you use multiple ones if needed. I come from years of using ONLY 24VAC so its not like I havent been there done that, in most cases it just makes no difference. Its the distance and current draw if anything. Ive used the best 24VAC power supplies out there also, big really heavy boxes, all fused individually isolated, yeah its great but the cost is outrageous in most cases, especially if you are shipping them overseas and reselling them to a client and have to add a markup. I'm doing a 47 camera system now, more than half are 12VDC (eg indoor color domes in a store and office, some color IR also, the 24VACs are a mixture of WDR Domes, Varifocal Color Domes for cash, and Outdoor TDN Bullets with minimal IR that will likely be disabled), thats 3x 12VDC 16 output boxes, and 1x 24VAC 16 output box, all neatly wall mounted in the IT room along with the rack mounted DVRs. They have extra power left over for additional cameras, but if they start adding dozens more, then it will require additional power supplies. This is the industry, nothing unusual about it, how else would you have people do it? Say use all Panasonic Box cameras in big housings or all Panasonic Domes and then add Extreme or Raymax IR if its too dark? Clients will run to the next company faster than you can say 123, been there done that, and stay broke because most people just cant afford it, and most clients WANT domes and WANT Infrared these days. if you dont do it, they go elsewhere anyway. AND BTW Rack mount PSUs are extremely expensive. That ofcourse would be the preferred method with dozens of DVRs, but also they only come in 24VAC, so you would be talking about a system 10-20x the cost in the end after using all high end 24VAC cameras and those rack PSUs. Sorry but when you show a client the cost of that compared to a wall mount PSU they simply say NO THANKS.

I believe that the Aegis IR company was acquired by Bosch. The 20 page Aegis IR pamphlet states on the very first written page: "A common problem with ALL LED BASED ILLUMINATORS is the continual degradation of the optical output level and therefore performance over time. The optical output of a standard LED illuminator will degrade by up to 10% in the first few months of operations and this will continue to degrade further over the course of the lamp." Aegis have taken this deterioration into consideration to produce IRs that they claim maintain constant IR output. To be honest I dont really care what they put down on paper, calculations, etc. I know what I have used in the field and what still works today. It was Extreme CCTV (aka Derwin) BTW. Their LEDs are nothing special, and they run so hot after a couple minutes that one would burn the skin, yet they go years without issue. That said even with $200 TDN IR bullets, I have some here that show no degrade in IR Output over 5 years, at least not visible enough to notice a difference.

When staying within a budget one can not always find 24VAC cameras that will fit the application, without spending hundreds of dollars more. I agree to use 24VAC when you can and especially for longer distances, but to say that is all one can use is ridiculous. Clients want to save money, and arguing the benefits of 24VAC over 12VDC will not change that fact - but it could loose one the job. Billions of systems in the world are using 12VDC so standards have obviously changed. The end result is what matters, and having used both 12VDC and 24VAC cameras I can guarantee that using one power supply or the other will not make the cameras "see" any better, or give one better evidence for court. In fact I have had more problems with 24VAC cameras than I have had with 12VDC cameras, but that is a topic for another day. If anything the main thing to watch out for is the distance when dealing with 12VDC, they do draw more current. That said for years I have used extreme IR cameras that draw 1.5a+ of power using even 24VAC, so something like 550ma with a 12VDC camera is childs play. If one has unlimited funds then certainly buy the 24VAC cameras, but unfortunately that does not always happen in real life.

Perhaps where you live, but not in the rest of the world. I have IR LEDs in the field for over 10 years, power is as strong as ever, only a few bulbs out of several hundred have blown.

I concur.

PSS is designed for use with hundreds of devices and to have everything automatically come up on startup could be annoying in that case Example being I have dozens of DVRs in one of my PSS setups, but to load them all takes a while plus I dont want to always do that. I rather wait until PSS loads, then I just load the sites I want to at that particular time. I guess a nice feature would be for them to add in a setting in device manager for a "default device" and in the config options to have a selection for "load default device on startup" .. might make that recommendation. But there are other choices ... 1-Select "Save Last Monitor Status" in "Config", "Options". This will bring up the previous multiview you were watching when you closed out PSS, and connect all the cameras. So in this case you can create your custom multiview (with multiple devices if you have any) then when you start PSS each time that will load. 2-Select "Login all devices" in "Config", "Options". This will simply auto login to all devices. 3-Right click on the Device in the device list and select either "Main Stream" or "Extra Stream" to load all cameras from that device. 4-To get rid of that annoying status popup, go to the PSS skin path and delete "tasknoticbg.bmp" 5-Select "Auto login PSS" in "Config", "Options". Then wont have the login box come up. 6-To remove the need to use a password at all including on exit, goto the PSS data path and edit PSS_Config.ini, under "[Version_Info]" remove the value for the field SUser_PSW, eg. SUser_PSW= Then goto "[Login_Info]" and remove the value for "Password" The webrec activeX is pretty unstable which is one reason I dont use that. Plus PSS gives me more options and multiple sites. But other than that I use my own software more than anything.

to preserve the size on wide screens use the Switch Menu Item in PSS. Also, why do you "have" to open a task? Tasks are used to load camera groups, sequencing cameras, etc. But you dont have to use tasks to use PSS.

It depends, cost effective could be either way, cheap color only camera with a visible light is cheaper and full color, except likely burn more electricity if the lights dont already exist, unless using visible LEDs. BW cameras are useful for applications where it will always be dark, eg. nightclubs. or if one is just concerned about night time and not the day a BW camera can save alot of money. BW cameras are difficult to locate these days, easiest to come by are the mini BW bullets or board cameras from KT&C, and BW domes from Everfocus - most other manufacturers discontinued them now. There are several levels of cameras with built in IR, from cheap color IR cameras to TDN IR bullets to full blown mortgage payments like the bosch extreme cameras. Built in IR is supposed to be a plug and play solution, sometimes it is not .... It can cost the client less labor as its only 1 product to mount, just point and shoot and hope it works at night .. though when doing a proper day night application it is suggested that the installer setup during the day AND at night, and with IR also setup under pitch dark .. so labor cost can rise anyway. Depending on the location you may have to deal with bugs such as spiders living on the front of the camera due to the IR light. Additionally and the most important is that the IR will typically only go the direction the camera is pointed in, in other words you cant fine tune the IR direction like you could if it was separate - except in the case of the Bosch Extreme IR cameras which have physical IR LED adjustments. Also with good separate IR you can adjust the output level of the IR, while most with built in IR you cannot (except for example the Bosch again). The camera with built in IR can be a very good camera, or a very bad camera, it depends on the camera you buy. The reason for the IR is typically for pitch dark applications, eg the inside of a store at night, a warehouse where the lights may or may not be left on at night, a back yard with no lights, etc. If its a cheap color IR camera then the reason is normally because the camera wont see much of anything in low light without it, and in those cases its mostly just a color camera with the IR cut filter removed so it can pick up the IR in the dark. If its a TDN camera with built in IR the camera is normally a good camera but the IR is added as a backup - but ofcourse its still no Panasonic camera. Most home users will get the camera with the IR anyway incase the lights go off or its too dark, and installers who did not look at a location at night when quoting a job would just quote with IR to be safe. With TDN Bullet cameras most come with IR anyway so little choice there, but one can normally disable it. Just know when and where to use them, and when and where not to use them - they have their place in the CCTV industry. Bottom line, I prefer a camera without IR, honestly Its more work setting up an IR camera properly as you have 3 applications to deal with (day, night, pitch dark), in fact I prefer a color only camera as the same can be said for a TDN camera which is a single camera trying to do 2 jobs (day, night). Install a color camera, install visible lighting, and be done with it. But ultimately the application and the client will decide what you need to use. You can have more options with separate IR but it can also be more expensive in some cases. What you use will generally depend on what the client can afford. If they are cheap then its not worth the time and money in even worrying about it, just sell them cameras with built in IR if you are unsure of the lighting level.

yes your right ..... he will have to throw 16 away then if he wants to use there software ...... i was looking at his 30 camera option. He could run 2 instances of the software = 32 cameras.

OR he could also try ... no idea who makes that camera though. http://www.digivisiondvr.com/products/DVRSoftwareSystem/NVRSoftware.asp Supports Dahua, Ikvision, DG Series, Sony, ACTi, Huviron, Mobotix M12, Arecont, Camtron, Axis, Vivotek, Sanyo, ONVIF http://www.linovision.com/en/featuredsoftware/nvr.html Supports Dahua, Axis, Vivotek, Hikvision, Stretch, Launch, Lemax, Hanbangaoke, Linovision A local computer/electronic store here sells that brand of IP camera as they sell everything Intellinet but If I asked them its likely they would just say use the software that comes with it.

He has 30 cameras - thats THIRTY cameras. There is NVR software that comes with it, use it.

Set the DVR network to: Transfer: Fluency Lan Download Check your encoding. HF-S is Full D1 30fps each channel. Connect in Extra Stream but change the Extra Stream settings to: CIF, 7, VBR, High/Highest (4/6), 160/256 Then try again. Also make sure you have the updated 4.05.3 which fixes some bugs in the initial 4.05 release.