rory

Not here. The only way i can get any cheaper is to order in bulk from the manufacturer as they dont normally sell to end users in the americas. But people here can simply go online to places like www.spytown.com and see my pricing that i get from the distributor anyway, so its a little different situation for in my case. We also pay 25% customs tax on video or 42% on electronics such as alarms.

PS. i wish i was in australia

Very good point, that is why in most of my posts I recommend going through a distributor, however you do get warranty from a manafactorer, but yes as you rightly pointed out it is at the expense of waiting for that unit to come back.

 

I noticed Rory that you promote Kalatel a lot in these forums and I would never like to advise anyone to shortcut a distributor, but in some cases you are paying far too much for the gear. For example you buy some cameras from Pro Video that originally come from Korea www.koreacctv.com so you are not buying from a manufactorer. The problem is that manufactorers are starting to sell direct and this will mean that you will eventually have end users buying direct and although this will only happen till something actually breaks and they have to wait for their gear to be returned.

 

What tends to happen is that they get exposed to the price, even if they dont buy.. this causes you grief because when you go to sell it to them they compare your price to the Manufactorers and talk you down in price.

 

This may not happen where you are but is a big problem for people in larger countries as there soon will be no margin at all.

Those prices are without a hard drive so you have to add that cost in also. And when you import them you get no warranty so any bad units you have to eat the cost. Most dealers in the U.S. don't want to bother with importing their own products and would rather buy them through a distributor or importer.

thanks Alan. Yep, i would then have to send them back to Korea (or wherever) andwait for a return, not worth it unless i had a ton of them in stock already. We dont have the market for that huge size of an order here yet. Ill stick with the US distributors right now.

What do you reckon..... Papa got a new pair of shoes

dont know if my quote will go through, as its all about who you know, but hopefully they are different from the rest and will be more professional and pick the best quote (and not worry too much about the high price! ) Actually we didnt mark it up as much as most would, but will still be able to make something off it.

I think a real estate deal may be going through before this quote does, which will bring me much more money than I would on this or any other cctv job (that i can think of, maybe except for a casion job)! Papa will be able to gat a new PAIR of cars!!

They are nice crisp images Rory.

Have you tried the Ganz Wide Dynamic yet? 0.012 lux Sony IT sensor?

 

Also be carefull about allowing people to remote view sites especially from websites as there ae privacy issues to take into consideration, some cases happened here wher owners were sued because they showed who was in the club, here there is only the provision to allow the owners to protect their prmeises and they may not advertise with it.

thanks,

thats the softeware i wrote myself also. I also made a browser based and a couple others like special LCD touch screen demo (none of them completed as yet).

No havent tried the ganz. Not a big seller in this area (per say my dealers), seems casinos like them, at least the illegal foreignors they get to install them here like them! (security is 100% bahamian, they simply get the work permits as something else and rub the pocket of a gov official with some extra green paper, a norm in this country!)

Something to consider:

If you have equipment costs already, then could you afford to not have it secured?

To be honest, security is a lot like buying a car, yes you can buy a system without all the bells and whistles and of lower quality, but will it do the job.

 

Too often good security companies are beaten on quotations by competitors cutting costs, which is great for the consumer untill they actually want to prosecute the person they catch.

 

There are a lot of overpriced solutions and there are always systems that have things that you wont need, however you do tend to get what you pay for. You can buy a cheap standalone Mux/Quad/DVR Hybrid device for around $300 US but cameras, you will not get good ones at that price.

 

Hope this helped

dude you keep saying standaalones for $300 us, there are non that exists on this side of the world! :-0

To be honest the only way to truley know what quality a product has is to try a sample, however this is a help forum so I will try my best to do just that. According to the spec sheet:

 

The system does not have MPEG4 compression which is a bit of a let down, however it is a standalone device and therefore should be rock solid. It does have a large recording resolution which is excellent however I doubt that it will record very fast at that resolution.

 

The rated FPS is only 30FPS which is a bit outdated, however it is reasonable over 4 cameras. Being a standalone you will not be able to update it.

 

I doubt very much that it would be able to remotely connect through PSTN (standard telephone call) therefore you would need to have an internet connection to use the remote features.

 

It will not have a burner included therefore you either need another PC to back it up with watermarking or you would have to back it up to VCR and that would not be watermarked. This is a major disadvantage indeed as with a PC based system you could just burn a CD.

 

This looks like a pretty good unit overall but I would not pay more than $400US for it as it is not much in manufacture.

 

Hope that helped

 

BTW Rory if you are reading this I have just noticed on the Pro Video site that they sell some of the same cameras as me, they buy them from Korea and Re-Badge them, you should buy them direct!

Hi

Just got back online been off and on for a few days not in my appt, back in now.

Yep i saw your other post. will check it out some more, like isaid though too expensive for me to order just a coupld cameras from korea, we dont have a market to order alot yet.

As for the DVRs, they cost more than Kalatels, i looked at them, but will stick with Kalatel for now. They have a 4 channel with NO remote option, for like $750, the onewith IP is like $1500-1700, all wholesale pricing. Kalatel;s wholesale on the 4 channel Storesafe with CDRW, LAN, etc, $1495 wholesale. Also connects via phone line with external modem.

The provideo bullets are good as an alternative to very cheap (like eclypse) or more expensive like a well known brand name traditional camera in weatherproof housing.

As for the name. Provideo is (or was) the name, owned by CSI-SPECO.

Thanks

ok puting the quote i on wednesday guys, will let you know what inspires

ok guys i got a quote for the largest bank here in the bahamas. it is to upgrade all systems to DVRs from tape. Plus add a few new cameras, and fix/replace any old ones that dont work good. They want 2-3 months at 5pps.

 

Anyway, as they have different numbers of cameras at each locations, from 4 cameras, 6 cameras, 8 cameras, 11, 12, 15,16 etc. What size Hard disk space would you suggest in this case, not knowing exaclty how long each will record with motion. I am using Kalatel DVRs, so brand is not a question. What is , is that I know from previous installs, 8 cameras @ 5pps on a seperate DVR and mux, on a 320GB does 28 days recording. Now I also noticed the all in ones at 2.5pps is just as fast as 5pps on a seperate DVR and Mux. I was concidering working it out at 2.5pps, and just using the calculations like this:

 

4 cameras @ 2.5pps - 160GB - 56 days

this would be for a 24 hour gas station, which would mean the bank should get more than that, so I could say 2-3 months. Then for locations with more cameras I just double the cameras and hard drive etc, to get the sizes needed. Sound right??

 

Here is an example of the number of cameras per location:

 

Locations Camera Amount

1 12

2 15

3 16

4 8

5 11

8 20

9 4

10 12

11 6

12 3

13 2

14 5

 

Being that 4 channal DVRs and 16 channel DVRs are a huge difference in price, would you just quote the same size all around or quote it specific to each location, like i was going to. In other words I was going to quote a 4 channel 160GB for 4 cameras, 10 channel 320GB for 8 cameras, 16 channel 640GB for 13 cameras, 16 channel 1000Gb for 16 cameras, etc. They all are the same physical size, but just have less buttons on the front and less inputs on the back.

 

Anyway, any suggestions please let me know. And by the way, no sorry, i wouldn't consider PC based systems for this job, too much maintenance and time consuming These DVRs have to fit in existing cctv lockboxes also.

 

As for cameras, they have so many different brands per location, even bullet cameras in some, but the bullets are the newest and they dont want to change the ones that work. The majority of new cameras they have are everfocus traditional color camaras. Should i just quote their new cameras the same, using everfocus, or use a better camera that i was going to quote them on. I was basically going to quote Kalatel all around, as they have some good new cameras also, but everfocus is much cheaper. But remember this is a bank.

 

But also, keep in mind other companies are quopting the job, and may use cheaper parts, cameras etc. I guess my main question is the DVR hard disk sizes, whether to keep them the same all around (which would mean some wont doo the whole 2-3 months like the 16 camera locations) or do them each specific for each location. I am also going to quote single channel DVRs to just replace their existing VCRs with, as a lower price option.

 

Thanks

 

Rory

I would hardly consider PCI cards a cheaper alternative.. some can be rather expensive indeed, to be honest the architecture of your Kalatel Standalone systtem is the same as a PCI card anyhow the only difference is that it does not utilise a Kernell and its OS is embedded.

 

Standalones lack a lot of features but are generally more stable than some PCI products. To be honest security is exactly like cars, you get what you pay for.

 

Lets face it, I would rather not put in a cheap security system because you arent providing a quality service and unless the system can provide adequate detail then there is no point.

 

PC based systems require a lot more maintenance than Standalones but at least they can be upgraded. I sell both, standalones are ACTUALLY cheaper to manufacture than PCI cards and I sell them as cheaper. Geovision is the best of the PCI cards on the market by a long stretch (for value for money that is).

 

Simple explanation is PCI CARD Stabilty 89% Standalone 99% PCI Card features 100% Standalone 75%.

 

Hope this helps.

Actually they are different technologies, not sure what you mean about architecture. Im not building them just buying, installing, and have not yet had to do any maintenece to them

PCI cards are only as good as the PC system it is installed on. So if you want simplicity and stability, then the stand alone embedded priority system is your choice.

stand alones are more expensive in this part of the world, than the PCI cards.

The system starts with a 16Channel Geovision recorder recording @400Fps and has a live display of 400Fps to a muxed output leading to a 8 in 16 output Video Distribution Amplifier this in turn leads to 8 LCD screens that have a composite input and are mounted on the wall in 8 small offices.

 

The DVR head end is backed by a UPS for both camera and DVR and their is also a seperate UPS for the cameras. The DVR sits in a 19"4U rack case in the server room and has two boosted Keyboard mouse and leads running back to the mangers office as well as a VGA booster for the two monitors on his wall (so he can look at logs and maps on one and live view on the other).

 

A network cable runs to the Vault at the bottom of the Building where a remote HDD storage (Datastore) provides backup of every motion event.

A Camera exists in this Vault and video footage is sent via the network if motion is detected in the Vault via I/O closure.

 

All video is monitored off site at a control room and each terminal in the building has password level access allowing each user to see their alloted cameras. Text messaging service has been installed on each terminal and Microphone and speakers added to each PC so that through the web browser each employee can talk to each other through the web browser and view each other as well.

 

The vault also has a GSM dialer linked to the I/O board in case of Network failure and a reapeater ariel sends direct communications and heartbeat pulse to the control room for the alarm system

 

13 Ganz wide dynamic cameras are connected to the DVR and Two 25x PTZ day night cameras are controlled accross the network, the last input is left for a 16ch looping switcher allowing all cameras to input into it then feeding a switching signal to the 16th Ch input allowing for only one camera needing to be open in webview at any time. A text overlay system feeds onto two of the camera inputs allowing for mapped databse of transactions.

 

Computar 5 -50mm Lenses are fitted to all cameras (not for range) for the good low light F Stop.

 

All security guards have PDA devices and wirelss network adapters with full controll over the perimiter PTZ cameras from their PDA which is taken in turns.

Lastly a software linux firewall and hardware 504 router provide protection for the DVR.

 

This job was the biggest we had done on one site in man hours as we had to get specialists to get networking and cooling to the vault as well as airiel connection for the repeater.

 

Concrete slabs had to be drilled through and we went through 12 Bits in the process of running the cables.

 

I would hate to do a nightmare job like this again

darn, i hope you charged them enough on that!!!

I have recently purchased products from Opticom. www.opticomtech.com Has anyone eveer used there cards. I understand that they are the manufacturer. They are based in Vancouver Canada. We are a computer company that is moving into selling CCTV solutions, that run on our own PCs. We have a couple Jobs lined up, a restaurant and convience store. They are local and are friends that are letting us do our first installations with them. Any suggestions or pitfalls you may have I would love to hear. I have already gained lots of knowledge from this forum and look forward to posting my results.

id look into standa alone systems also, as you may come across clients that want that instead, for stability and no maintenance. Also, quality of cameras make a huge difference, you should investigate certain camera manufturers, and find one that you are happy with, testing makes all the difference. Just dont go with one that someone says is good. ALSO, what the client wants, if they dont want to spend much, then when you sell them a cheap camera, cheap DVR, or PC based DVR, let them know it is not the top of the line, and basically, they get what they pay for. Ive gotten clients recently that only care about saving money, so they are content with cheap $100 cameras and a PCI DVR card but i let them know that is what they are buying.

March ISC show is coming up faster than you think and I am going to start gathering information on IP addressable cameras and associated recording software. Outside of the obvious like Axis, Samsung, etc. does anyone have experience with some great IP cameras and software? This is the big new security area and I expect a whole slew of vendors to show up.

i dont want to mess with them, too much like a web cam.

ok guys i got a quote for the largest bank here in the bahamas. it is to upgrade all systems to DVRs from tape. Plus add a few new cameras, and fix/replace any old ones that dont work good. They want 2-3 months at 5pps.

Anyway, as they have different numbers of cameras at each locations, from 4 cameras, 6 cameras, 8 cameras, 11, 12, 15,16 etc. What size Hard disk space would you suggest in this case, not knowing exaclty how long each will record with motion. I am using Kalatel DVRs, so brand is not a question. What is , is that I know from previous installs, 8 cameras @ 5pps on a seperate DVR and mux, on a 320GB does 28 days recording. Now I also noticed the all in ones at 2.5pps is just as fast as 5pps on a seperate DVR and Mux. I was concidering working it out at 2.5pps, and just using the calculations like this:

4 cameras @ 2.5pps - 160GB - 56 days

this would be for a 24 hour gas station, which would mean the bank should get more than that, so I could say 2-3 months. Then for locations with more cameras I just double the cameras and hard drive etc, to get the sizes needed. Sound right??

Here is an example of the number of cameras per location:

Locations Camera Amount

1 12

2 15

3 16

4 8

5 11

8 20

9 4

10 12

11 6

12 3

13 2

14 5

Being that 4 channal DVRs and 16 channel DVRs are a huge difference in price, would you just quote the same size all around or quote it specific to each location, like i was going to. In other words I was going to quote a 4 channel 160GB for 4 cameras, 10 channel 320GB for 8 cameras, 16 channel 640GB for 13 cameras, 16 channel 1000Gb for 16 cameras, etc. They all are the same physical size, but just have less buttons on the front and less inputs on the back.

Anyway, any suggestions please let me know. And by the way, no sorry, i wouldn't consider PC based systems for this job, too much maintenance and time consuming These DVRs have to fit in existing cctv lockboxes also.

As for cameras, they have so many different brands per location, even bullet cameras in some, but the bullets are the newest and they dont want to change the ones that work. The majority of new cameras they have are everfocus traditional color camaras. Should i just quote their new cameras the same, using everfocus, or use a better camera that i was going to quote them on. I was basically going to quote Kalatel all around, as they have some good new cameras also, but everfocus is much cheaper. But remember this is a bank.

But also, keep in mind other companies are quopting the job, and may use cheaper parts, cameras etc. I guess my main question is the DVR hard disk sizes, whether to keep them the same all around (which would mean some wont doo the whole 2-3 months like the 16 camera locations) or do them each specific for each location. I am also going to quote single channel DVRs to just replace their existing VCRs with, as a lower price option.

Thanks

Rory

can you tell me what the model is for this camera?

i'd like to try it

 

 

i know that the Pana 924 is full visible colour in a room illuminated only by one crack under one door... its unreal. if theres that much better out now then i'll probably have a heart attack when i see it.

a link to the specs are here:KTC-240CCE

http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/products/ge-interlogix?pnlid=9&famid=63&catid=1083&id=LegacyCams&lang=en_US

ill see if can get a photo from the DVR software and post it here, problem is though it sees in almost pitch dark, i was amazed, better than BW IR cameras I tried! but the image quality degrades at such low light, typical with all low light cameras that are that low a lux. The lens makes a huge difference also, need the right F-Stop which is what these have.

if low light colour is absolutely neccessary, maybe check out a Panasonic 920 series camera. .1lux in colour, high res.

 

very nice... basically night vision.

high end pricing comes with high end equipment tho

thats not very low, not as low as others out there today,including Kalatel's 0.02 lux color low light camera. ive tested as low light color as 0.02 lux, just not the same high quality as a low light BW camera.

I am in Southern California. I'm a bit hesitant to mess with the existing PIR since it is aimed and tuned exactly right. I don't want to start having false alarms. It scares the H$%(*& out of the little old lady next door.

 

I am interested in facial detail, especially if someone is here who is not supposed to be here. I'll browse all of the links you have offered. I may have time to look at them tonight. Thanks!!

 

I may have to bite the bullet and put an ugly fake smoke detector in. I wish there were cameras disguised as can lights. We have loads of those in this house.

if you need facial detail you will need at least a 6mm or 8mm lens, 3.6 mm wide lens will be no use.

Sue,

 

Firstly where are you located?

 

Secondly, you could replace your existing PIR with a PIR Camera, most PIR cameras actually still work as a PIR anyhow.

 

If you are looking for pinhole keep this in mind: Most Pinhole Cameras are wide angle, therefore if you want facial detail it may be a bit too wide an angle for you, depending on the size of the room. Do not purchase a CMOS Pinhole camera and try to get something that is manufactored in Korea or Japan. The one I sell has Audio as well with a built in Pre Amp and it is $115 US.

http://www.altechvision.com.au/pages/products.asp?CatID=58

if she is using a good PIR i wouldnt replace it with a camera PIR, especially if using rokonet motions, the camera PIRs are nowhere as good for alarm systems.

Thank you all so much. Now I'm going to have just a few more questions in a couple of days after looking at all of this.

 

Sue

also check out:

http://www.specotech.com/cart/products/default.asp?action=viewcat&catid=174

and to purchase at wholesale pricing direct from the internet:

http://www.spytown.com/search--by-part-number-speco-technologies.html

http://www.spytown.com/search--by-part-number-speco-technologies--board-cameras.html

and the dvr all-in-one unit i like to use, simple installation, maintenance free, internet/LAN ready: (called StoreSafe DVR)

http://www.bahamassecurity.com/ms/dvr/default.asp

and to purchase online at wholesale price:

http://www.123securityproducts.com/kainst4chdvr.html

Mr. or Ms. Australian Expert,

 

I like the pinhole camera idea. Can someone point me to one? I've seen the smoke detectors, PIRs, clocks, etc., and all the rest I saw were wireless.

 

Thank you!

 

Sue O

http://www.specotech.com/cart/products/default.asp?action=viewcat&catid=15

Instead of the 1Ch DVr why not get a 4ch Standalone with alarm inputs, we sell one that is 100FPS with four camera inputs and 4 alarm inputs as well as 1 alarm output. You can then use a PIR camera in one (wireless or not) and then you have motioned recording and whenever it detects a signal you can have it output to anything you like, any chime device or beeping device or several. It has a built in switcher as well. roughly $500 US with a 80Gb Hdd inside.

yeah but that us $500 befire it has to be shipped to the US, and go through US customs charges so youd need to add a few hundred on top of that.

Ok, beginning to understand here. This is just coax like cable TV. Larry, the audio connection, what is that? Is it a 3.5mm stereo, or what?

 

And what about the software? Does it come with? It looks like I can get the card and software for around $200?

 

I can cool the heck out of my computer, no problem. I'll just get a Volcano 10, lots of case fans.

 

Now you say Win2K or above. I wasn't aware of much above that. Win XP Home SP1 ok?

 

Yes, I would love suggestions on cameras. I'm overwhelmed when I look at the catalogs as to which is best for me.

 

Thanks for taking the time to help, it's much appreciated!

 

Sue

ill answer some of the questions as i dont know antyhing about geovision.

RG59U is thinner than TV cable (which is normally RG6)

Cameras: Provideo has some decent BW Bullet cameras, cost around $80-150.

Yes, I guess I would be on the wrong forum for webcams.

 

I think a PCI card would be more secure than a webcam anyway. Thanks.

Its not that really, but with a regular CCTV camera, whether itsa bullet camera or a traditional camera in a housing, you would generally get a better product. There are some IP cctv cameras, that come with built in hard rives, but they cost a fortune. This is why most of the major manufacturers make seperate IP servers or DVRS, and the cameras are standard coax.

Thanks rory and DVR_Expert. I will check these out, and I'll probably have more questions after I do so.

 

Yes, the DLink is an IP unit. I gather you think that is not such a good idea.

 

I'll be back after I do some research!

 

Thanks again.

 

Sue

never used those type, wouldnt consider them cctv, more like a webcam.

Thanks, Larry. I would like to do both, watch from the web and store video and audio for later viewing/listening.

 

I'd like to keep it under $1000 if possible. I'm going to start with 1 camera, and originally I was hoping to only spend around $350 for that. I was originally looking at the DLink DCS-2000. I don't know if that is a good choice or not.

 

Thanks.

 

Sue

if you dont want to spend more than $1000 then a PC based card like geovision is your only choice, dont know prices as I dont sell them, but i think for 2 cameras they probabl run $200-300.

If you are in the US, Provideo has a large selection of hidden (discreet) cameras, including things like outdoor motion sensor light cameras, clock cameras, smoke detector cameras, board cameras etc. Depends where you want it and how hidden you want. Some electronic stores sell them, if not look for a local security/alarm company in your area. You can also download their catalogue from http://www.specotech.com/downloadcenter/.

Rory

AVCONSULTING, DVR Expert, thanks for all the info, suggestions and links. I'll definitely try to find a local distributor.

 

Despite the warnings about using our own PC's, I'm still leaning towards going that way, simply due to the cost of the turn-key units. However, the next step is to show the recommended PC specs to our PC people to get an estimate on how much the PC's would cost to build. Then we can do a cost/benefit comparison with the turn-key systems.

 

Thanks for all the input. I'll post updates on what we do and what happens, and I'll keep checking back here in case anyone has any additional ideas or comments.

 

Thanks again,

 

ChuckM

if you still need more info on turn key products let me know, there are ways to get the price down and still have a great DVR system.

ILL log back on later on to check out 7's nighttime view..thanks

rory