NEVERENDING

The reality is that the only difference right now between standalone and PC based is the pages issue. This will be solved within the next few months at which time there is nothing that a PC can do that an embedded cannot. From the PC side the h.264 is miles ahead of anything else. It is stable and efficient but you have to write your own interface as there is nothing decent out there. The MPEG2 is done. It has its inherent problems such as audio sync and a few others. The MPEG4 hardware codec is a great product but has limitations today beyond 8 ports because of PCI bus issue. This will also be solved shortly. With respect to people not knowing what they are doing is an understatement. If a product has a problem it would be recognizable across a broad section not isolated to a single individual. Well as for GEO pick a problem as there are a bunch, but we have been through that. Comes back to stability and reliability and support. Use the same components over and over. If it ain't broke - don't fix it. We have had great success with Vendoma and their MPEG2 and now with their MPEG4 and h.264part10 hardware codec. But we stick to the same things they use and have no problems. It is when we have tried to make things better or change them that we run into problems. They have more resources and R&D then we do so who are we to think we are smarter. Doesn't matter who you buy from if you find a stable combination don't change. The future is the sophisticated high end embedded solution that interfaces seamlessly with the matrix switchers and can control the DVR functions without having to gut a control room and rewire everything. On the smaller side the multiplex DVR embedded is getting so cheap that it does not make sense anymore to use a PC. Service calls are an integrators enemy. I can now buy a 16 channel standalone for well under $1k so why the heck would I bother with anything else on the smaller systems. When the advanced embedded come out I will use them also for the enterprise customers. Vendoma now has a 16 channel standalone with IR remote that like I said is pretty basic and "customer-proof" for a ridiculous price so I use that.

I posted this in another section but these guys have a decent low end standalone. I just got a sample of their 16-channel which isn't on the website with LAN and its cheap, cheap, cheap and it works. So far, but too soon to tell how long. http://www.amexsecurity.com[/url]

There is a lot to be said on this subject. To start with there is confusion because embedded is a tricky word. Some of the higher end DVR companies use embedded XP on a PC based platform so careful how you phrase it. From what I see is coming from overseas now within 12 - 18 months there is nothing that a standalone machine cannot do that a PC can. The standalone matrix systems are out there now that can emulate the matrix switcher and many are stackable. The cheap stuff such as the Vineyard and Alogic chipsets are not really comparable to the PC but the better sets have quite advanced features so you have to separate the consumer products from the professional. There are the cheapo embedded that run MJPEG and the better ones that run flavors of MPEG4 some with hardware compression and the cheapos with software compression. You can write a book on this stuff.

Rory I was talking about Amex not optex by the way

I was surprised but the stuff works great. I bought a couple and the quality considering the price was more then acceptable. I got the package to see how the cameras were. The pictures don't do them right. They are CMOS cameras but they are built like a brick sh**house and decent picture. Trade pricing is right if you are buying volume. I got one of the integrated with monitors also which works ok and good deal for the price in volume. FYI, bumped into someone from overseas who worked with Geovision and informed me that Geovision buys their cards from a company called UTP in Korea. GV didn't write the software but got an SDK like many of us and did their own thing.

Talk to your sales people and I am sure they can log you into one of the test sites. They usually set up temporary passwords offline so you can play with it and then they reset it back.

I agree with Thomas, Belkins are the best but they are pricey, but they don't lock up like some of the cheaper ones that you have to keep resetting.

I hope your sitting down for the pricing. There MPEG4 prices: 4-channel $500 8-channel $900 16channel $1800 (and that is distributor pricing) Now you can pick yourself up off the floor.

at least with the embedded there is no mystery they all buy the board sets from the same 3 places.

Not to beat a dead horse and I know it will start an argument but Geo really does make nothing - regardless. Just to bring an end to this I will find out where it comes from. There are relatively easy ways to find out from the chip makers we deal with who seem to know everyone. Which was the first way I found out it wasn't there's since no one seem to sell them the components that were on board. Meaning someone makes it for them. Which again is ok and who cares.

I saw some incredible stuff in Europe at IFSEC this past month trying to dig through my bags to find the names of the product. But some good equipment that "appeared" to be the answer to the Enteprise solution. Coming from Taiwan I believe. Embedded solution too, with the Enhanced Wavelet Technology tying into RAID arrays.

Aver goes back to Taiwan. Will get the name of the factory for you. Actually trying to get to the bottom of who makes what only for the purpose of knowing what the heck I am getting. Whoever gets it to work and supports it well that is the most importmant thing. There alot of the software MPEG4 boards coming from all over the place now in China at prices of under $20 - CRAZY!!! Can only imagine what those are like.

It actually could be a couple of things but what you are describing is not something I have ever seen and asked a couple of others that use the product and they said same thing, they have never seen that. There is a good chance it is a problem with the hardware. Give tech support a call that is what they are great at. When I had some problems in the past that i couldn't solve I sent the whole machine back to them and they got it up and running (and best of all no charge). I felt like an idiot because it was something simple and I just didn't read the manual properly and missed something. But then no one else in my department picked it up either so I felt a little better. I just looked at what we have had success with and it has been the ASUS P4G800 boards. Also the Intel PERL boards. That is with the Vendoma products though specifically. They are also very tricky when it comes to audio and there are only some boards that work well with the audio but it does work on all 16-channels fully sync'd which I haven't seen elsewhere - but it did take some work to get there. Give their MPEG4 a shot. Best thing I have seen so far. I am still looking for a good 16-channel embedded that is feature rich. Which leads me to another discussion which I would like to open up a string for. What can a PC do that an embedded device can't do within the next 12 months.

Also what components are you using. Doesn't sound right because I get crisp as can be pictures. I know they are very quirky when it comes to using the right motherboards and video cards. I used to have some issues but went over to their preferred components and haven't had a problem since. My guess is its not the cameras and you can confirm that by obviously plugging them into another system to make sure you don't get the same thing.

are you using a live board or the capture card and what cameras are you using.

I still say for: Local video: Vendoma Stability: Vendoma Remote functionality: Vendoma Still think their remote video is acceptable but could be better on their MPEG2. I just got my hands on one of their new hardware MPEG4 boards and the quality is amazing but the price is steep. But I come back to the same thing if a few hundred dollars makes the difference on an overall project you probably shouldn't be doing it. But I just hate paying the extra dollars.

16 alarm in and 16 alarm out as well as 16 video in and 16 out

What prices have you seen on the Nuvico and with or without HDD

I have a customer that is using Intellex which has 16 video out, 16 alarm in and out and can't find anything equivalent - any ideas???

I hear ya about the service issues of the customers tinkering. Policy editing works sometimes but is a pain in the a** others. The way to go is with the XP embedded but Vendoma won't cough up the info on that, which they use when they sell products and the licensing is crazy and you have to negotiate with MS on that. When Vendoma sells boards they recommend 2000 also.

1/ Vendoma may not make SOME boards and they make no bones about that as anyone will tell you call em and ask yourself. 2/ The abundance of features in the Vendoma product would give me cause to pause and wonder who wrote the software for whom (again, doesn't matter if it works) 3/ Vendoma high price agreed is justified although I don't think they are expensive in volume just in small quantities. 4/ Vendoma obviously does make boards and write source code, obviously not all as mentioned before but you can't do what they do with SDK toys. We ain't talkin just manipulating graphics and basic API calls, we are talking complete overhauls of functions. 5/ I tried FYI to run Chance-i software on Vendoma and does not work I get all kinds of error messages (which may simply be they locked the board and created a unique ID) 6/ Geo makes nothing I agree with others prior posts. You can talk to any of the manufacturers in Korea and they will all make no bones about it all Geo is - is a Publicly Traded Trading Company in Taiwan. They buy from Korea end of story. They do no development work themself. Again, this may be splitting hairs because doesn't matter who does it point is it gets done. All the major Japanese companies now outsource to China and India but its still their product. Outsourcing is a way of life from Call Centers to R & D. Not good or bad just let people do what they do best do the work. That is just being smart. The point comes back to you may all be right. Aventura Technologies (Vendoma) does make boards but probably not many. They have h.263, MPEG2, h.264v2, h.264v10, Enhanced Wavelet, RTOS. Vendoma is a software engineering company I guess. Actually trying to really understand what they are. As far as product for the government or military or whomever I would assume they make themself but who's to say. If it's true "mission critical" applications the gov don't simply go by someone's word and further they would be under a Non-Disclosure Agreement and couldn't even mention the likes of it. I know from contracts we have chased the gov makes you jump through hoops and demonstrate certain capabilities before they will even talk to you. This is when talking high security. Smaller menial stuff anyone can sell one here and there. From what I have found Aventura writes to 6 different codec bases for video and a h.323, MGCP and SIP in the voice world and then go from there. So obviously we are talking a big company and not a programmer tucked away in a room with an SDK. And as far as SDK's unless you have incredible SDK's which none of the Korean companies have other than changing basic GUI, there is no control to do much of anything. We have looked many times. Basic API calls. Again, you may all be talking about different products. If you have seen the Chance-i SDK you cannot do what Vendoma has done if we are all talking the same product. I would like to discuss more what experiences anyone has had with the MPEG4. At ISC every other booth had brochures for MPEG4and there were hundreds of them. But half of them were full of sh**. When you went through the product and checked you can see it was the same ol MPEG2 or MPEG4 software compression. They are quoting out of China under $20 for MPEG4 boards with software compression on a 4-channel. I ordered one for the hell of it now waiting - should be interesting. I have yet to see a true stable MPEG4 board with hardware compression that works and has the features necessary to replace existing product. On top of this the prices are ridiculous right now. Also, trying to understand and not getting straight answers from the board companies what is it that an embedded unit will not be able to do in the next year that a PC-based can. Any answers to this one. Because if nothing why would we want to deal with the misery of service calls when there is a plug and play alternative thats worry free or is there something I am missing.

I see what you mean by popular. It's kind of funny that well the joke always is if you call factories overseas when they know a company has a good product they all say they make the product for them. So I am sure if you call half the factories in Korea they will say they make product for Aventura. Like I said if it works, it works. They are a software company and as the sales people their will tell you they will write to any board you want. They will make you any program you want not just for CCTV. So yes I am sure they buy from Comart, Chance-i, etc...... I know people who have been to Aventura's facilities and have told me that they don't have mass production of boards but fabricate short runs of product and then outsource mass production. They are an R & D company in U.S. If you buy their finished product which I have bought one and taken it apart before I sold it, all the components inside for the video are theirs, or it appears that way. Their name is all over everything and was done even on the PCB when fabricated. Again, who cares, it works. Not sure what the point is to this whole string anyway. To tell the truth! You all may be right if you want to split hairs. So all of you just kiss and makeup and heck find something productive to talk about. What you should look to do as I see in other industries I have dealt with is invite a CTO to your forum to answer questions and educate the visitors, but you guys would scare them off in about 30 seconds by wanting to know where they bought the ingredients to make their dinner the night before and then go off into discussions whether it had MSG or not and where they bought the MSG!!

I went looking for some info and looks like I interrupted a catfight. For whatever its worth not sure where you got your info on Chance-i boards because won't go into your note point by point but you have many facts wrong. Have bought Chance-i boards for some time and they were ok and have PDA support as well as other features you claim they don't have. Support though is an issue. Regarding Vendoma, as all those here mentioned they have incredible support and service. Incredibly efficient organization from the "janitor" on down. I have bought cards from them recently and to be candid I didnt care who made them all I was concerned about was: 1. Does it work 2. Is it stable 3. If I have a problem can I speak with someone intelligent 4. Is it a stable supplier and is it backwards compatible in future 5. Is the price reasonable They get a grade of 10+ on all accounts except the price because they are not cheap, but they say service costs money. What I have found out recently though is if you buy their MPEG2 boards in volume of 25 or more their prices are much cheaper than Geo on many models ever since Vendoma released their MPEG4 boards. What I wanted to know is if anyone here has tried Vendoma's embedded DVR's? I Have no experience with them and they say they do not make them but import them and merely Q.C. them. I guess its their answer to affordable stuff for the home. Or if anyone knows of inexpensive 16-channel standalones. I tried Nuvico which was good quality but price was still a little steep. I can build a PC-based cheaper so it doesn't make sense.