survtech

Yes, and just wait until they find out the same satellites can read their minds...(unless they wear tin foil hats) .

Just like my avatar says..... And I work in the business. Right to privacy is a heated issue!

Hi, I represent a major Southern California casino. At the urging of Rory and others, I've started this thread for posting tests of both active devices and passive baluns for twisted-pair signal transmission. UPDATE I have been thinking about measuring the cameras directly at the source as a yardstick. I also believe we can adapt one of the NVT transmitters to be a receiver (they are a block module on a PC Board). We bought a batch with the baluns, used some with twisted-pair and removed the baluns from the ones we used with coax. Then we bought a bunch without baluns and installed the baluns in them when needed. We still have quite a few balun boards. We could test them as receivers to see if they exhibit different attenuations from the other 4. If they do, we can assume that the NVT transmitters are limiting the signal. If they don't, it is likely, but not certain, that they are not. Any manufacturers who wish to be included in our tests can PM me and I will give them an email contact for direct communication.

Only if it is programmed into each input. There is a selectable "cable compensation" which can be set for "0 ft." (no amplification), "500 ft.", "1000 ft." and "1,500 ft.". We have all inputs set at "0 ft." The tests were done without having the MDA in the loop for measurement purposes; just for observing the signal.

Definitely some losses at 1,000 ft, but not as obvious as you would think. The tests at 1,500 ft. showed much more obvious defects in the picture. Remember, color burst is not the same as color level. The lower color burst does make our inserted text (time, date, camera #) have some obvious color fringing at 1,500 ft. but it is subtle at 1,000 ft. There is also a slight washing out of the monochrome signal but not as much as you would expect. Perhaps something else in the chain is compensating? We do use Pelco CM9760-MDA's to buffer each camera; split the signal to our matrix and A-D encoders and to insert time/date/camera # on the feed to our matrix (Pelco CM9780). We also have very high quality JVC 21" analog monitors on that side.

UPDATED 2/26/08 Here are the first results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,500 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 270 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 1,200 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 070 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE VideoEase Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 069 IRE Composite 092 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 070 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 069 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 039 IRE Luminance 147 IRE Composite 187 IRE Color Burst 027 IRE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here are the second results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,000 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 70 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 900 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE VideoEase Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 087 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 027 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 036 IRE Luminance 150 IRE Composite 187 IRE Color Burst 024 IRE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are the third results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,000 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 70 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 900 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Taken Directly at the Camera Sync level 038 IRE Luminance 121 IRE Composite 160 IRE Color Burst 033 IRE Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE VideoEase Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 027 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE ! NVT Passive Transmitter Hooked Up in Reverse Sync level 027 IRE Luminance 090 IRE Composite 117 IRE Color Burst 006 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 036 IRE Luminance 150 IRE Composite 186 IRE Color Burst 024 IRE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Notes: ! = We took an NVT passive transmitter from another Ganz ZCD-3000 series dome camera and hooked it up in reverse for this test. A short BNC cable was soldered to the PC board where it would connect to the camera's 75 ohm output. This is the same camera we tested previously in our second test. We did re-test with all baluns used previously but added a test directly at the camera and a test with the NVT balun. There is no model number on the NVT balun used since it is a module soldered to a PC board, not a stand-alone NVT balun. However, it is very likely that it is the same product as their low-end passive baluns.

So you go to the expense of running steel conduit, then cheap out on the transmission method? Besides, if you are running more than one camera signal within the same conduit you still have bleed from one camera getting into the other. The result would still be called noise.

Thanks. I'll see what I can do.

All you need for one camera is a monitor with a composite video input unless he wants to watch them remotely. If he does, he will need either a DVR with internet capability or a computer with internet access and frame grabber card(s). You can also use a "quad" to monitor up to four cameras locally.

Perhaps a moderator can answer this: I don't have a website to upload any pictures to so I am limited here to linking to other sites' images. Where can I post pictures that can be linked here?

I'll try to do some additional experiments, including supplying the measurements directly at the cameras, connecting a "new-in-box" camera directly to measured lengths of CAT-5E and both replacing the built-in NVT baluns with paired others and putting an NVT balun at the other end. Keep in mind that we are a casino end user and as such, we only have access to equipment we have purchased or demos supplied by our distributors. We also have limited test equipment so the Camera Master and an oscilloscope will have to do. Also, we have limited time to conduct these experiments, so it may be some time before we can add details. I'm actually somewhat surprised by the repeatability of the measurements with the Camera Master. We attempted to use it before for tests of baluns and active receivers and the results were not promising. The "focus" setting was far too touchy to guarantee proper focus and our eyes and an oscilloscope appeared to be better tools for setting cable compensation on the Vigitron active hub we used for another long run so we stuffed it in a drawer and almost forgot we had it. We still have the Vigitron hub (though it is in storage) so I'll try to include it in future tests. Sorry, pictures of camera locations and gaming areas are totally out of the question since it would be a violation of policies. I urge others to perform similar experiments with whatever equipment they have and post their results here. As far as CAT-5E brands are concerned, the same restrictions apply - we are limited to what we have installed or have in stock. I can not justify the purchase of other brands just for experimentation so I'll leave that to others. If you look at the list above, you will see that we are using three different brands within our runs but really have no way to "split" out one from another. There is a wide variance there, though.

Here are the first results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,500 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 270 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 1,200 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 070 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE VideoEase Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 069 IRE Composite 092 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 070 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 069 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 039 IRE Luminance 147 IRE Composite 187 IRE Color Burst 027 IRE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here are the second results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,000 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 70 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 900 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE VideoEase Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 087 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 027 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 036 IRE Luminance 150 IRE Composite 187 IRE Color Burst 024 IRE Notes: As you may have surmised, there are literally no measurable differences between the four baluns, since +/- 001IRE is basically the meter's resolution limits. Also, the picture on a high resolution JVC 21" color monitor shows no discernible differences between the four passive devices. On another note: On the first test at 1,500 ft., there were very obvious defects in the passive-passive video quality as compared to the passive-active. The picture was "washed out" and high brightness areas showed color fringing (rainbows of color) in them. The signal was strong enough to record a useable picture on our DVR system (Honeywell Enterprise). On the second test at 1,000 ft., the defects were far more subtle. The color fringing nearly disappeared; the washed out contrast improved immensely and the recorded video was nearly perfect. Conclusions: * There are no practical differences between the baluns listed and likely few differences in any reasonably well-made passive baluns. * Since the picture quality at 1,000 ft. was very good, I would say that the generally accepted limit of 750 ft. passive-passive is both valid and practical and at 500 ft. (the longest run inside the casino) it is comparable to RG-59 coax. * Since we did not test using other cable types, our findings only apply to the above listed cable types. * We have also used the following CAT-5E cables inside the casino with similar results: ** Arrow Wire 09LR-350EA4-6 CAT-5E 4-pair ** Arrow Wire 09-E5EA25-8 Cat-5E 25-pair

I don't remember the name, but FM Systems makes one. Their "Product List" page is not loading but here is a link to their home page: http://www.fmsystems-inc.com/

Unfortunately, that may not be possible. Although we do have multiple quantities of each balun in stock, the Ganz ZCD series don't have space to install an external balun and the way they are mounted (pendant) makes it very difficult to put a balun outside the dome. Plus they are in quite heavily-travelled areas of our parking structure. Maybe we could just perform the experiment on our bench with a 1000 ft. box of CAT-5E. I'll try it when we have the time. I have been thinking about measuring the cameras directly at the source as a yardstick. I also believe we can adapt one of the NVT transmitters to be a receiver (they are a block module on a PC Board). We bought a batch with the baluns, used some with twisted-pair and removed the baluns from the ones we used with coax. Then we bought a bunch without baluns and installed the baluns in them when needed. We still have quite a few balun boards. We could test them as receivers to see if they exhibit different attenuations from the other 4. If they do, we can assume that the NVT transmitters are limiting the signal. If they don't, it is likely, but not certain, that they are not. Perhaps I should do this whole thing in a separate thread. Moderator / Admin - are you listening? My guess is that the NVT's will show almost exactly the same characteristics as the rest of them. Considering the relatively wide range of baluns in the test (the VideoEase baluns are at least 6 years old), I strongly suspect that balun design is pretty much a standardized item and there is little, if any, variation from manufacturer to manufacturer - despite sales hype to the contrary. By the way, GVI is touting their built-in surge protection: http://www.gviss.com/Portals/0/GVIProductImages/352/GV-VB59SP%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf Small world, eh!

You could be getting ground loops within the power supply. This is indicated by the lack of problems when you use separate supplies. In standard power supplies, the individual (+) and (-) connections for the cameras are common to each other; with only a fuse separating each output. Try an isolated power supply. If you are using 24VAC power, here are suitable ones from Altronix: 8-camera - http://www.altronix.com/index.php?pid=2&model_num=ALTV1224I 16-camera - http://www.altronix.com/index.php?pid=2&model_num=ALTV2416I Altronix makes other versions using ptc's instead of fuses and with various power ratings. Unfortunately, if you are using 12VDC power, they don't make isolated versions.

Here are the first results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,500 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 270 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 1,200 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 070 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE VideoEase Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 069 IRE Composite 092 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 070 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 069 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 039 IRE Luminance 147 IRE Composite 187 IRE Color Burst 027 IRE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here are the second results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,000 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 70 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 900 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE VideoEase Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 087 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 027 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 036 IRE Luminance 150 IRE Composite 187 IRE Color Burst 024 IRE Notes: As you may have surmised, there are literally no measurable differences between the four baluns, since +/- 001IRE is basically the meter's resolution limits. Also, the picture on a high resolution JVC 21" color monitor shows no discernible differences between the four passive devices. On another note: On the first test at 1,500 ft., there were very obvious defects in the passive-passive video quality as compared to the passive-active. The picture was "washed out" and high brightness areas showed color fringing (rainbows of color) in them. The signal was strong enough to record a useable picture on our DVR system (Honeywell Enterprise). On the second test at 1,000 ft., the defects were far more subtle. The color fringing nearly disappeared; the washed out contrast improved immensely and the recorded video was nearly perfect. Conclusions: * There are no practical differences between the baluns listed and likely few differences in any reasonably well-made passive baluns. * Since the picture quality at 1,000 ft. was very good, I would say that the generally accepted limit of 750 ft. passive-passive is both valid and practical and at 500 ft. (the longest run inside the casino) it is comparable to RG-59 coax. * Since we did not test using other cable types, our findings only apply to the above listed cable types. * We have also used the following CAT-5E cables inside the casino with similar results: ** Arrow Wire 09LR-350EA4-6 CAT-5E 4-pair ** Arrow Wire 09-E5EA25-8 Cat-5E 25-pair

WOW!!!

Isn't that a moderator's job ? "rory Moderator & Founding Member Posts: 13526 Joined: 10 Nov 2003 Location: Bahamas"

The Vigitron VB1001M cost us $xx.xx each. The GVI VB-59 and VideoEase cost $xx.xx each. I don't have pricing on the VBU baluns yet because they were "loaners". I'll post their price when received from our distributor.

SEE BELOW!

Hey, you started the Pelco thing, not me. And all I said was that I dislike AD, no inferrence about your feelings about them was either stated or implied. I would prefer to limit the thread to discussions of baluns and active devices.

What does this discussion have to do with your dislike of Pelco? Unless you want to stretch the point to say that the passive device in the Spectra IV is a problem, then we still have the point that we are also testing the baluns on receive only with the transmitter being the NVT balun built into the Ganz ZCD domes. It would be like me stating that I hate AD in a conversation about sports cars. And believe me I dislike AD, but I wouldn't normally bring that into this discussion. Still, in a previous discussion about baluns, I stated that the VBU balun looked exactly like the GVI on the outside and someone stated that many balun manufacturers use the same case. Apparently, at least two also use the same guts. You stressed the point that VBU makes only baluns and that theirs are unique. Obviously, that is not the case. I'll concede the point that at $30 a pair, if they do perform as well as the GVI's, they are an excellent bargain.

And you could dry your hair by sticking your head in your car's exhaust pipe... Seriously, by attaching the twisted-pair directly to an RCA connector you are losing a major advantage of balanced cable - the ability to cancel out noise picked up by the cable. A main feature of balanced twisted-pair video transmission is that noise is picked up equally by both wires in the pair. Since the signal on the wires is added out of phase at the receiving end, this cancels the noise (+noise + -noise = 0 noise). Your method would actually double the amount of noise in the signal.

No, I was comparing a Video Baluns Unlimited passive balun to GVI, Vigitron and an old VideoEase passive balun and to Pelco active receivers. The comparisons are to cable lengths that are both within and outside of distances you claim the VBU baluns will handle.

I thought you said they performed better for long cable runs? ??? I don't understand what you are saying ??? We are using high-quality CAT-5E. The runs to the parking structure are at least 1000' and the structure is 500' long so we have some runs that are probably longer than 1500'. I have found a 4th balun brand among our miscellaneous parts so I will do a side-by-side comparison, including measurements taken with an o'scope and a Camera Master and will post the results here. By the way, I just did a comparison between a Videobaluns Unlimited BL3265 balun and a GVI VB59SP balun and they are exactly the same. Not just the outside case but the internal guts as well: * The same circuit board. * The same coil/choke. * The same diode or cap or whatever part is mounted vertically behind the BNC. * The same IDC connector for the twisted-pair. * The same color wires (red & green) connecting the BNC connector to the PC Board and routed exactly the same way. * The same resistances between connectors. * Even the same UL listing.