CCTV_Suppliers

metafizx, how did you managed to get this IP camera? Do you have the specs or the manufacturer's info? As you stated, according to your own observations, this IP camera is not there to compete with "high end" equipment... rather simple solution at a very reasonable price... I am interested to find out more about this manufacturer... so, please share with us who they are and how did you manage to get one these cameras.

Rory, you promissed me $5.00 IP camera... where is it... Do you personally think that this may be a solution that you may consider? If so, why? As you state above, you do not need any support and never cared for it and want the cheapest thing you can get your hand on... well, will free software be any cheaper than what you may be looking for? How about if your refine your software development skills and get better on C++, Perl, Java and few other languages and be able to come up with your own distro? Who says that you can not do that? You can call it whatever you want as long as such distro becomes available in the open source... Rory, I always respect your comments and opinions. Do you think this concept holds any water from your own perspective? If so, then what will be your own take once this becomes available (and not if this will happen or not). How about if you have access to much cheaper IP cameras that are coming into the market and with correct volume, it could easily hit sub-$100 price range... I know that you will call this a through away option if it fails, but for must potential users, this could be the surveillance solution that they all were looking for. I will understand if you choose not to work with it or to support it. Heck it is your choice anyway. But consider the potential benefits and ability to contribute on ideas (as we expect most of the users can provide) and implement them one at a time...

Well, I can tell you, but then I may have to .... Watch what happens after this ASIS show being held in Southern California... many announcements in eliminating many products, adhereance to H.264 platform, reduction of pricing in many cases in the IP side of the solutions, etc... I will not mentioned names here nor will encourage any exposure for such an effort.. What I suggest is watch and observe and you will see the results sooner than later. Look at this from a different point of view - the angle which manufacturers have to think and lineup their positions... When such solution becomes available, what will happen to most? I am not suggesting that they all will leave the industry by no means, rather they have to now pick and choose very specific vertical markets that may not care to "save" money - that includes military, the government and other major companies. If we were to account the percentage of such group, it accounts to no more than 10% of the overall potential users in this market. I care for the rest of the 90% of the market users. Hey bud, it is your and everyone else's choice to join or stay with what you currently use. Nobody is or will be forcing their will on you or others. Rather an opportunity to give much more cost effective solutions to general public abroad accounting to 90% of the market and make money in volume of business without capitalizing on each deal with exorbitant prices available today. We and most of the open source community chooses not to follow that pack of selected few, rather open market, open source and solutions that are available to anyone who cares to use it. At the end you may choose not to use this solution and that is your own decision and there is nothing wrong with it. I will not try to persuade you or anyone else to follow this path. Just be open minded without any interference from anyone else and be your own judge and jury... If you feel this is not for you, then that is perfectly fine with us.

I looked at Exacq, Milestone, ONSSI, Genetec, Bosch, American Dynamics and few other known brand that thrive on this "charge per IP connection" bill method. I have no preference, as all are operating in the same pack with the same intent... and with total disregard on the industry's real needs... except their own. Some are higher and some lower (do you know how much Genetec charges per IP connection and their yearly fees that will choke you if you even find out?). Every company puts something different on the table, but in the nutshell, they are all the same... What makes the big difference among them are how long they have been doing this (in case of Genetec, they call themselves the "leader"), how well is their solution "accepted" by the industry and how much more can they charge before customer's realize that they have been had... And the worst of this entire process is that none of them agree on any industry standard nor are willing to sit down across each other to agree on anything that could be called as industry standard. Does this sound familiar that we have been facing for a long time? At least in my over 30+ years of experience, I have not seen any solution in our industry that could be construed as "industry standard" and I do not anticipate that the present situation may offer anything close. Rather, everyone have their own solutions, their own products with total disregard what we, the industry, really needs. + Please find my answers next to your questions and please take it as its full value not just an opinion...

OK.. call it "Upgrade Fee" for new features and that is $25.00 per IP connection right? If so, then what do you call this again? Anything "FEE" calls for more cost, regardless what you call it. Call and talk to your Rep or call them directly and they will not give you a straight answer. Seems to me that you are taking this very personal and I do not understand it. Exacq is not the only company doing this, but many others. Do you want to hear the worst yet? Few of our existing manufacturers called us and asked if this concept really a fact and if we are working on something that this whole thread is about (I guess they have members in this forum - great!). The answer was and still is YES and guess what they stated.. that they can and possibly will reduce their supply of equipment to us and support on such equipment. OR even worse - that they will increase our pricing higher than normal to possibly reduce our exposure selling their products... I guess this type of concept really hit some of the companies where it hurts the most - their ability to charge much more than necessary. Well my friend, how will you respond to this type of threats from your manufacturers? Will you back off and go along with their wishes or will you continue your venture? By the way, some of the same manufacturers actually dropped some of their pricing since our discussion few weeks ago... what do you think of that? Who actually benefited from this anyway? If we are getting the same product cheaper, then the benefit goes to the end users...

If you only are selling cameras and software, then buddy there is a problem in your business practice.. Are you not selling other gadgets and accessories (too many to mention here)? When was the last time that you were able to charge for consulting, as most integrators do? Actually the self installs of this distribution did come up in our discussions and I think should be part of the entire process... if so then the industry will dictate and not what I (we) think. If self install does become a necessity, then I am sure that will be avail as well.. but that is not a choice for us to make, rather a dictation of the end users in our industry! Again, where do you (we all) make money - support, documentation, selling all the essentials required for the end user to be hooked on this concept, as has happened with Linux and BSD platform and all their free applications available today! The other choice of course is do nothing and wait on the sidelines and see what happens..

Ok, lets answer this one first... For your information, we also are integrators and we do not just make money on selling cameras or software, but also build complete computer systems, sell cables and accessories across the board. What comes out of the entire formula is the cost of the software and possible less on the IP cameras (sooner than you think). Where do we all make money? Are you familiar how Linux or BSD supporters made and still make money today? It is called support, selling essential components of systems, CDs, documentation, hardware, etc... and selling them to more people than Microsoft cares to find out. Did you know that entire German government signed up with Suse many years ago to convert their entire platform away from Microsoft to Linux?? The process saved the German government billions of dollars in so many years... Did you know that over 80% of the servers in the world use either Linux or BSD? I guess you do not see the huge potential of the number of customers that will be asking for this type of solutions, which interprets to more sales in selling more gadgets, more money in supporting it and tremendous increase in volume of the business... All you have to do is to follow up with what Linux and BSD community had done in so many years and why they still are around and making money. On the other hand, you do not have to do anything but stay with the same pack and watch what happens... The technology will not stand still in favor of selected few companies and their ways of conducting business. It changes daily and effects us all, so why not be part of it rather than going against the tide..

No fee structure?... Really?.. OK.. fine... how do you then justify a proposal that includes cost per IP connection PLUS additional fees per year based per IP connection to provide "SUPPORT", "UPGRADES", 'PATCHES AND FIXES" to known problems.. or covering "TECHNICAL SUPPORT" in case there is a problem with the software... If you do not want to call them "Yearly Maintenance Fee" or "Yearly Support Fee", then what do you call it? My friend, I know Exacq product much more than you are giving me a credit for... I know few of the engineers and the sales people.. I am not against having anyone to make money in any way they want, but I have the right to disagree with their marketing of how they charge per IP connection or for support required passed the first year... This is not anything different than how American Dynamics handles the similar IP solution, or Bosch or Genetec or many others... so I am not singling out Exacq to be the only one, rather that Exacq is part of the pack that want to charge this way... I and many others have the choice to say no, as we do not want to pay per IP camera connection nor for any additional fees for any other type of support... Welcome to open source mentality!

First off Iphones cost more then $300 and they can sell them for $300 because of the RMR generated by the contracts. Also I think they have sold more Iphones then every IP camera manufacture combined. Yes, good response.. here is my come back at you... Apple sold more Iphones is because the major drop in price, combined with more user friendly features and functions at no additional cost and then then demand has gone up (hmmm, now we are talking economics)... where is the demand based on the price of IP cameras today and could you tell me what will happen if such pricing of IP cameras drops to a reasonable level - like pricing of the analog cameras for an example? Are you comparing apples to oranges here or what? If you look back how Iphone started and how crappy it worked and higher costs at the beginning, then you can appreciate its reasonable price and the functionality more today. If you had a sub-$100 camera available, will you entertain your IP solutions that costs you more than $500 per unit? Which will be easier to introduce to your customers? How about if you were able to give them the "free" IP software application, but charge only for installation and support, will that work for you or will it hurt your business?

yes i looked, saw, tried, and ran fass fass ... it has a LOOOONNNG way to go So... you do not recommend it??

APPLE uses ExacqVision for there NVR solution....... and they are running it on Linux boxes..... and Exacq works on MAC Cool... One point for Exacq.. doing something that most of everyone has not even thought doing yet... I have not seen this cut on MAC, but have seen and operated Exacq software and it is a very good one for sure... but not worth the price schedule.. sorry.... as none of our customers care to get tied down on not only for the cost per IP connection, but yearly "warranty" or "maintenance" costs... I can not justify this type of charging schedule nor it makes any sense for our customers... sorry bud..

You are funny man... - if you have to ask, then yes, we do know about this project... which is in its "alpha" stages and god knows where it may end up... Did you try it yourself and if so, what do you think? I prefer to steer away from anything that is "alpha" or "beta" cuts...

Hey bud, you did what most of everyone will do since this cut of the distro is not ready for release until early December this year... so do not feel bad... This distro does cover most of the known IP cameras in the market (I am not 100% sure about Acti, but if not, eventually it will). Have you ever used any Linux distro that you may have been able to download from their respective company's website for "free"? If you did so, then if you were able to make it to work, then was there any cost with it? This IP cameras software is no exception to that rule... All our beta testing will be done either in-house or with few selected customers who has shown great interest to test such solution. Few of these customers are already using "paid" version of solutions from companies that I will keep nameless.. do not want to piss such companies off, as they stand a very good chance to be kicked out from these customer's facilities.. Once we have the first stable cut version of this software available for general public, I can give you and others who care to test an opportunity to download and play with it. We expect many questions, disagreements or requests for more features and functions... Most known features and functions that are popular with "paid" version of the similar software will be part of this distribution. It may take more time to incorporate everything and add even more functions that "paid" versions do not offer (or better yet, they offer for even more money), but this is not a solution that stops after its introduction... rather continued support and engineering that right now accounts to more than 111 engineers throughout the world. All we do is creation of a very specific distribution that we think could make a serious dent in our industry standards - combined with much better priced IP cameras or even MP IP cameras. Heck, if you can buy Iphone for less than $300, why can't we have sub-$100 IP cameras that do not perform even 10% of the tasks of Iphone??? Is it may be that certain companies want to make sure that we do not have access for this type of lower cost hardware or trying to delay introduction of such solutions? You be the judge of this angle...

OK Rory, you made your point and I will not dispute it... I feel the same about bot Vista and Win7 anyway (by the way, I am using a computer right now that has the corporate version Win7 - piece of garbage, as it crashes more often than I care to mention)... but I look at much bigger picture and users who will not have a choice available to them... you know, the ordinary Joe who uses whatever they can get their hand on... Obvious choice could start with this application riding on Linus distro or BSD... to be installed together as a complete system... the problem is that not everyone may want to follow this trend and rather could require this application to work on their existing Microsoft OS... which could be Vista or better yet, Win7.. so, I want to keep this option open for most users... Of course, we will have it riding on XP as the first Windows OS choice anyway. You also brought a good point about MAC computers... by the way, did you know that Apple is using very specific version of BSD core software? We have not tried this angle yet, but something tells me that since its main engine is based on BSD operating system, this application stands a chance to run on MAC... we have to wait and see how that will happen, which probably will involve Apple SDK compliance issues, etc... Great observation Rory... and thanks.

Thanks bud for your comments... you keep mentioning "purchase" the software, but it will be available for free download with no strings attached... and yes, it does work and will work just fine and is very stable... the first cut of this distro is scheduled for download sometimes December this year or earlier... At the moment it supports at least 90% of the known IP cameras. We are fine tunning the MP cameras and writing the drivers... mainly for Arecont based solutions not only from Arecont, but also from Bosch, GE and even American Dynamics (by the way, Arecont supplies the same chipsets and the cameras to these companies). Axis, D-Link, Hikvision, Panasonic and few others are also in the lineup... Not sure about the rest, as we had not had a chance to test them yet. Running command line will be great feature, but most users most likely prefer simple install and with simple plug-in and play feature... The intend is to make this software simple to install and operate without any complications. Of course, more advanced users can get into the command line feature, which could be part of the Linux or BSD setup.. Somewhere above, Rory mentioned that he prefers XP (no windows version 3.1 or DOS please). Why just XP and not Vista or even better, WIN7 for windows users? Our initial observations show that most do not care which operating system this application could run, as long as it operates.. as most want to install on a separate PC... Thanks again...

What is the consensus here about the operating system preference for IP software and why? 1. Linux based? 2. FreeBSD based? Or good old fashion Windows? What if you had the software working on all these platforms in a single download and selectable by the user at the install? How about should this application be available stand alone to be installed in a different operating systems or should it come combined with any of the above systems (excluding windows of course)? This way someone can install both operating system and the application together... These are some of the questions that we are tossing around at the moment. My personal preference is either BSD (the best memory management protocol and works best with older PC hardware) or Linux (fairly stable platform)... but I am sure others could ask for windows version as well...

To help understand better what you are referring to, can you specify which make and model PTZ dome are you referring to? In most cases, the PTZ having sun shield help but it is not a necessity to keep "cool"... If you want your PTZ to operate normal in all temperatures, then it must contain a heater element and blower allowing to maintain constant temperature regardless of the weather conditions... If it is hotter than normal for its electronics, then the blower must kick in automatically to reduce the heat within the unit and vice versa applies in cold or rain condition - heater element kicks in to maintain constant temperature and keep the moisture out... at least that how most PTZ outdoor domes must operate. So, get back to us on the make and the model and we can tell if what the company is stating does hold water...

Rory, sorry bud, I forgot about Bahamas... man, I had a customer there that was buying some domes and some cameras and his landed price was just unbelievable... taxes in your neck of the woods are just too much... and we have nothing to complaint about what we are facing here... Just trying to get a feel how people react on warranty issues, which in many cases gets overlooked... Yes, we provide full blown three years warranty on everything we sell including the labor if we are doing the job... I guess you can say that we are more tunned to serve our customer for a long haul rather than making few dollars today... From my experience, take care the customer best you know how, carry the entire warranty as intended and make sure that you get proper channels in place with manufacturers to support their own products. Even though the labor charged today in most cases is a possible break even cost within such warranty, it helps to retain and keep your customers for a long term basis.. and establish long term business relationships.

This is a topic that can go in so many different directions and discussions and is dependent on who the audiences are... I do not see any discussions about this topic in this forum, so I though it will be good idea to initiate a thread. Here is the dilemma: 1. One side claims that more than one year warranty costs too much, therefore prefers lowest cost possible for a given hardware. One justification is based on an assumption that if such equipment lasts at least one year, it should last longer and why pay more for something that you can get them cheaper. Another states that the savings available will more than qualify a purchase of newer hardware every year or every other year. Yet another assumption states that lets reduce present exposure of costs at their minimal and take advantage of the saving in the future to change hardware to the latest technologies available at that time... and the list just goes on and on... 2. The other side of the spectrum differs on thinking process regarding warranty. One of their assumption is that lets invest now and reduce overall costs in the future. It will entail higher costs at the beginning, but in the long run they are way ahead of the game. Another opinion involves with commitments with a specific technologies that work well to their specific requirements, therefore it makes sense to stay with such hardware for a long haul. Yet another one states that it will be easier to budget for a hardware for period of three or five years, thus makes the numbers look great on the papers. Both sides have legitimate concerns and reasoning of course. Both sides can justify their respective positions pertinent to their own assumptions or needs. One side justifies lower cost for less warranty and the other considers higher costs for products and longer term warrany. There is no “ultimateâ€

Here is a manual that I found: http://www.guardianalarms.net/home_security_manuals/Baxall-Security/HBZMX916-IN%5EE-1.pdf Looks like it is for the same multiplexer with several different languages... Hope this works..

Hey Rory, how are you doing bud? Good question and it mostly based on the quality of the product.. GIGO effect is always in place... you use crap hardware, do expect it to fail fairly soon and expect it to cost you more in the long run, unless if your customer is willing to pay for it.. In every case that I am involved with our end users, we offer full three years warranty on both the hardware and the labor across the board without any questions. That makes it difficult for you to carry too many brands and forces you to stick with selected few. Labor charges will not be low nor I will encourage anyone to do so.. Average cost of the labor from our matrix is around $75 per hour for such a task (and higher in some cases).. worked for us for over twenty years in this company and for me over thirty years... Of course, this above assessment is based on the fact that such product could fail at least once within such three years time line.. so cost of the labor is covered.. however, there have been cases that we had a bad batch of the same product, which turned into a nightmare... so I understand the dilemma very well... Then again, you can not expect to be profitable all the time for every job, so at the end, everything somehow balances out... at least from my perspective anyway...

Ok Rory, please explain then how you justify your time and the support that you provide after your installation is complete... Do you charge per call basis during a warranty or non-warranty period, is it the quality of the products that gives you the comfort that they do not or will not fail or something else? Just curious why warranty does not play any role in any of your decisions... What about your customers? Do they or not care of such objection or they prefer to pay as per call basis if and when (it is always when) such product fails... I always respect your opinions and will be very interesting what your take is on this...

Very interesting angle from integrator's point of view... and I tend to agree if I were only an integrator... You do not need to have an office person at full time basis to track warranty... that is the manufacturer's job in most cases. If the product fails, are you suggesting that you do not know if it is covered under warranty and replace it without checking where you bought it or who the manufacturer is? Man, your cost of doing business should be very high in this case, as you replace defective part with a newer part as a cost and with no recourse in having the defective part replaced... My personal experience in this area shows very clearly that the same identical product with three years warranty could cost no more than 15 or may be 20% more.. Now, if you have the camera cost lets say $300, will it worth to spend lets say $60 more for additional two years? It all depends what your customers want rather what we all think anyway. If you customer is strictly price driven, then you have no choice... However, in most cases the warranty does play a roll in actual selling of hardware - giving people the good feel for the investment they make now and no worries for such period.. Lets look at it from a different angle.. If the same product is still $300 and it works fine for lets say for more than a year and then fails, what are you offering the same customer as a solution? Is it another $300 of the same part or repair it for lets say at least $100 plus cost of the service call, travel expenses, etc... The basic economics shows otherwise.. Most integrators that I worked and still do work today offer the following program... three years warranty on hardware and one year warranty on the labor.. thereafter, if the product fails, then the hardware cost is already realized, but customer pays more for labor (which of course could be negotiated ahead of time).. or in some cases, integrators offer full three years warranty on both the part and the labor...

What? One side of the sentence conflicts with the other sentence... Are you suggesting it is better to spend more on repair fee rather than product with three years warranty? Does that make any sense to you? What will possibly the repair fee be compared to marginal cost difference in many cases between full three years warranty vs. one year warranty based products?...

Which ones did you use before?