CCTV_Suppliers

Great points bud.. and I am not going to dispute any comments that you and others make about this concept. Any negative comment for this concept is a great feedback, as it shapes how we have to fix problems and not to discourage why we do it in the firs place. The first cut of this software will work on Linux and BSD platform for sure. They could come as a separate application or a patch to a distribution or complete with OS and application combined. I personally will prefer BSD OS, as it has the best memory management built in and capabilities are tremendously better than any other OS out there... End users will not see or care which OS it normally comes if it is the bundled version and such package does not have to be updated often. Later cuts of the same application will be available on Windows (most likely on XP and later on Win7) or VMWare (my personal preference). If users go with the VMware version of this distro, then then will have a chance to run different OS systems around it (more advanced user probably will do this anyway). We are leaning to have three different cuts for this distribution: 1. Light version covering up to 16 IP cameras. 2. Standard version covering up to 64 IP cameras 3. Extreme version that can take number of IP cameras up to 1,024 - this is an inherent limitation on BSD side, which will increase at one point of time. Windows version will not exceed more than 128 IP cameras (Windows design limitations) and the Linux looks good for up to 256 IP camera connections). Of course you will need major network infrastructure behind such solution with fiber channel or other very well known network components, but it is possible to make this to work. Most manufacturers of IP cameras started shifting their efforts to product products that spit out H.264 compression based video, which will help in the long run. What is very interesting for this package is that it doe not prefer any specific IP camera configuration (open source) and presently supports most of the IP cameras in the market, Axis, Panasonic, Arecont (which basically covers majority of Bosch, American Dynamics, GE IP solutions) D-Link to name the few. Manufacturers of IP cameras will be encouraged to work with the community or better yet, participate with the community to write the necessary drivers to insure best results. Of course, most will not follow this track, as most have their own solutions in place. Free market enterprise is based on many choices and choices is what I want more without any restriction on any specific proprietary platform, regardless if it is hardware or software. Last (30) plus years has shown clearly that any company trying to isolate itself from the pack always looses. The pack determines what the industry needs are and not chosen few companies. I am not against any company making tons of money, heck we are in business to make money. Specifically our industry never had any industry standards unlike the most other industries around us. Since IP technology based solutions for security industry are here and will stay, my only angle is to make things as easy and simple as possible and have very low cost and yet fully functional solutions for most of the users. Someone may disagree that Linux has very strong backers or does not have footing to survive and has been said about the Linux since its inception. Look where it is today and where it really is going. IBM and other giants are behind this platform and they made Linux possible for most of us today. Even Google is jumping into the same wagon (heck most of their servers use and operate Linux) and introducing Chrome operating system, which is a stripped down version of Linux. I wander why even Google look at Linux as a legitimate OS?? Rory, I know you work on software code and I am sure you are very good at it... If you had an opportunity to download decent NVR software and make changes for better and make it part of what you sell to your customers, wouldn't that be a good thing and if you had any questions or require help, wouldn't be great to know that there is a huge community behind it, so that you will find your answers fairly quickly??

Great idea, how didn't I think of this one... then how do we record using very cheap NVR solution?? Computer technology today is able to produce sub-$100 computers, smart phones cost less than than $100, many useful gadgets we use daily that perform much more complex functions that any CCTV camera in existence... and the question is always why is our industry, the CCTV Security Industry, is always behind this curve? The answer is simple and very complex and has its own merits based on who the audiences really are. This concept is not there to "change" the industry as it is known. Rather offer much simpler, extremely cost effective and yet functional solution to most existing or potential users world wide. Do we have a such solution today that could qualify for this scenario? I sure can not find one such solution except what Zoneminder has done in the past. Yes, their version of the software is very difficult to install and not easy to operate and for ordinary "joe", it is not an option... and considering the fact that this distribution has over 12,000 followers itself is a hell of an accomplishment. Now, the source code is available for anybody who cares to download (like Linux operating system), make changes and put back to the distribution and it belongs to nobody (sound familiar with Linux platform?). It already comes with some very essential feature already in place such as zoom function during and after the record, video analytics, various type of searches (including instant playback) to name the few. All I am suggesting is that by taking what already is available and with a very mature code, by developing better GUI, clean up the code, add additional feature and functions that most software manufacturers are screaming their lungs out, then put it back to the community for their own use. I know this - it will never be "fix all" solution for every user. Rather a solution available for anyone who cares to have a software solution that costs nothing period. If such user wants documentation, or buy software on CDs, or technical support, then that is where someone can actually make some money, not much, but still an income. What is even more interesting is that major computer components manufacturers are interested on this idea - all it does is increases their possibilities to sell more computer hardware... switches, storage, etc... if so the user wants it. I am committed to this idea and a distribution of the software for a long haul. There are many hurdles ahead and many obstacles that are under serious consideration. It is not easy by any means, rather a solution that I firmly believe that is due for our industry. Based on our preliminary marketing research, potential number of users for such application is enormous as long as it works and as long as we find a reliable supply of cheap IP cameras and guess what - there are quite of few manufacturers in China that actually has shown a great interest in participation of such program.. I can already see software manufacturers uncomfortable about this and any other idea following this path (I should know, I am already getting calls with many questions about our intentions). Well, they should be worried and very worried if I may add. Their marketing must now focus on very specific vertical markets and capture very specific customers for them to survive. As for majority of potential users, they should and will start questioning all software manufacturers "charging models" for a software based on cost per camera license, yearly maintenance costs and god know what else.

Rory, sup man? Well, may be I will make an exception in your case and make it to work on DOS, wouldn't that be great? In serious side of this discussion, we are already in place to start testing whatever version of the software available in Linux, BSD and XP platforms. I know it works fairly well in Linux and BSD (well, it was designed with these OS systems in mind), however we are going much further than that - will have a version working on XP. As for Vista, well, not sure if it is worth spending resources, as Win7 is around the corner... We will find out more in the next few weeks if we should wait for the release of Win7 or should we have Vista version... and Vista being much more difficult platform vs. others. With this concept software, one camera per household should not be that difficult to sell... - of course when such software could come with sub-200 or even better sub-150 price tag for such IP camera... actually working on that at the moment with few manufacturers... Look at it from this point of view - why so many home owners not only in U.S., but elsewhere in the world still do not "want" or "care" to have camera installed for their own protection? Is it may be that our industry made it so difficult for most not to even comprehend and even worse, not be able to install such hardware at home? Computer industry has done a great job that most people are able to take a product home and plug in and it works... and why not for camera system for home or small business protection? Main idea is this - most everyone has an extra computer at home collecting dust and instead, you can fire it up, install whatever version of this software you desire and the platform is ready for the camera hardware. Run your Ethernet cable from your computer to your camera and then the software will automatically detect its existence and start working right away... and dependent which camera it may be and how much storage you want to have, of course it will determine how many days or weeks of info you can store...

Encoders aside, there other gadgets that will do the same for individual camera... Once comes in mind is Veracity - http://www.veracityusa.com/products/products.php - these items are not cheap, but offer solutions other than available encoders...

Exceptional pictures... which camera is producing these images? Which software?

Any comment about this concept is better than no comments at all.. Everything you stating is very well know facts and there are no disputes or ever will be about its present condition. Dependent which distro of Linux make a difference on the stability of the software and that is where we have been focusing at the moment.. There are solutions already in place and nothing that the ordinary user may use... however... Every criticism I see, it is a clear indication for us the direction that we have to go. If this product had no problems, then I am sure everyone would have started using (I know quite of few people using a revision that uses capture cards and they are very happy with them). You definitely hit the nails in the head for each assessment you show and clearly only a mad man may consider involving with a platform that is not user friendly, very difficult to install and to maintain... At the begining, I can see that this distro will start working on some sort of Linux OS (more will come at one point of time) and the chances are good that this new software will come with specified operating system... In case of Microsoft, we are discussing right now if we even want to entertain this OS... Industry will dictate at one point of time if we should consider Microsoft OS... In a nutshell, I am taking this challenge and allocating enough resources to get there... Based on all our preliminary studies, it will take roughly three months to have our version of the distro with better GUI and better overall use experience. Our main background on operating systems are Linux and FreeBSD and more importantly, C++, Perl, etc... We fully understand where the problems are and focusing on fixing them one at a time and it is not a simple task, rather very tedious and yet very rewarding. I tell you, once we get our first cut of this distro in place, I already know that we will have even more complaints, as most of the end users or dealers are already tuned what works for them... so it will be very difficult to "change people's perception". However... every time that we see or hear a complaint or any criticism, that is our information and the feedback to go back and fix, modify, change or overhaul such system, so that it eventually could serve the majority of the users and not selected few. I very much appreciate your comments and keep them coming. I may not have all the answers yet... but I can tell you that the ball is already in the motion and will not stop until we achieve this goal... I do not intend to charge for something that does not work nor provide a bogus service. All this comes together only if the users are happy with the results. If they need help to install, then we (all of us) can intervene, but if it is very difficult to install, then that is a task for out team to fix this problem.. The revenue stream may be avail, but it is not a guarantee... Too many variables in this formula as of right now. If the product works as intended, easy to install, easy to assign the IP cameras, easy to navigate and operate overall, then every time we hear a complaint, it is our (the community's) responsibility to fix it. I unticipate that there will be three different flavors of this distro - light, standard and extreme... Light version could be used for homeowners or small shop operators that do not need more than lets say 4 to 6 IP cameras, a server with built in storage. The standard version could target medium range customers who may use up to 64 IP cameras package. The extreme version right now is looking at 256+ possible IP connections ( I expect someone now asking if we are considering bandwidth usage, etc)... The challenge is not if these are possible, the question is if it is desirable to have these different flavors of this distro. Our observations has shown that it is possible for our industry to have such different flavors of software, similar how 4-6 channels exist at the low end, the 8-16 channels in the middle and higher channels for high end... But, all these assumptions can change if our industry tells us otherwise... and that is the beautiful aspect of this concept... Industry gets what they want and not what manufacturers have been training all of us to believe.

No camera license fees, no software fees, "0", zero..., nada, nothing ... nobody can sell the software, as it will be avail for anyone and everyone who cares to use it... the only way to make any money will be to sell installation, support, documentation and hard copies of CD... besides of the servers, storage devices, IP camera hardware, cables, etc... Nothing different when you download any linux distro and use it... and if you need support, then you can contact respective distro producer, who will charge for support - or address it in a forum for an advise... The actual code is excellent with C++, Perl, PHP and Flash... We will be addressing many of the problems that this existing distro has and basically cleaning everything that we see. In addition, most of its existing features and functions (video analytic for one) will be working better and easier to program. The platform is solid and has been used by many in the past as DVR software working with few known capture cards. But recent releases actually concentrated on working with most known IP cameras... very difficult installations, not an easy GUI to operate, etc... Our intentions are very easy and simple.. take what already is there and improve as much as possible and continue development going forward. By accessing more than 100+ engineers in different parts of the world, we can do some good service to our security industry and address all the known and even unknown problems and issues that at the present moment are being overlooked by many. Anyone can download the code and work with it and come up with their own version distro... as long as such changes are reported back to the community for everyone's use... It worked extremely well for Linux community and I do not see any reasons for it not to work for our industry. The only people who may be against this concept will be the manufacturers of similar software that charge very high prices or die hard users of certain software makers... like Genetec, Exacq, Onssi and others. We have nothing against these companies, but we, as a security industry, believe that we can do better for the entire industry. At least we could have a uniform platform for most of us to easy to adhere and future technology equipment to be incorporated with such platform. Imagine this - if a manufacturer wants to bring a new camera technology, at the moments either they have to sell them with their own software (closed loop solution) or beg other software manufacturers to add such hardware on their support list. However, if the same manufacturers of such IP hardware had a known standard platform, then they can add such support to the same platform and all we have to do is to take them as a "patch" to existing software... at least in the concept that how we see it, possibly something similar how Linux distros receive hardware compatibility list from manufacturers. Manufacturers peddle to add their drivers within Linux distros allowing user to get them as an update or a patch...

Hey guys, here is the latest on this development... We have been watching and observing what the boys and the gals in ZoneMinder have been building throughout the years. Some the releases were substandard, some actually were very decent. We also made engineering contributions for this very large open source members team (by my last count, they have over 12,000 members). We also know that less than 10% are actually solid software engineers who allocate their free time to fix software problems or make changes based on requests or otherwise. I know that we are communicating directly with over 100+ of these engineers and coupled with three in-house engineers, we should have our first distribution available in few months. Funding for this venture already is in place and we aggressively looking at brand new GUI parameters that should make this software much more user- friendly than it is at the moment. This distribution does not have clear path of implementation nor any "centralized" authority to allow or disallow what works and not. Rather everyone contributes, uses parts and pieces and reports back with the results... What is even more interesting is that over 90% of the member are actual users and there is no end to sight on recommendations and features that they want such distro to contain. One of the main questions that one of the members addressed in this thread was the potential number of users that are limited for any progress and I can tell you that if nothing else, there are over 10,000 potential end-users at the moment and more if such distro works better and provides more versatility. Some questions that I'd like to address to the members in this forum - what OS do you prefer for this distro to be available? I know that it "works" kind of on Linux and Windows, but what is the preference here? As matter of fact, it does not work just in any Linux distro and requires very specific distro to take advantage of all the features, memory management, etc... and Windows version has problems on which Windows it can or will work... so there are too many questions at the moment that we are trying to sort out. Any comments will be appreciated.

Agreed...

Stupid, no... Microsoft officially dropped the support for Win2000 for few years now... Unofficially they still provide some critical updates... I have few servers and workstations that still operate with Win2000 and without any problems. Arecont figured why bother with OS platform that will fall off the cliff in a year or two time and restricted resources for support of the software. Instead, why not focus on XP or higher OS from Microsoft...

Twillo123, you are absolutely correct on the zoneminder... have you ever used it with capture cards or with IP cameras in its raw format and if so, what do you think? Present market condition for the security market is what I call it a vacuum or you call it a bubble... What you see or hear is what is available in such controlled environment and very few actually looked outside of such vacuum for anything else new or even better solutions. Very small part of larger Linux community did and continues developing such solution, as they and we firmly believe that such solution is and will be a very desirable for larger audiences. I did say in one of my posts in this thread that we did commit to allocate three top notch software engineers for this community. We learned tremendously by such association with them and continue to learn more daily. The actual code is solid and requires some cleaning and much better installation protocol. It requires a much better GUI and easy navigation, which at the moment lags. However... if the foundation of such software code is solid, then you can build whatever you want and call it whatever you please... as long as such newer builds and changes get reported back to the same community. Nothing different is offered here that has not already is in place with Linux community. Any new idea in this market always receives tremendous negative feedback and that is the way its always has been. It does not come from the fact that we all are not intelligent and do not understand what is right or wrong, rather comes from what manufacturers have fed us over the years believing that we have to depend on them without any questions and mainly pertinent to software solutions. I totally disagree that what manufacturers create serves our needs. We know better and we know what our customers want and need. End user do not need substandard software that must be paid from top to bottom and side ways and then continue paying for such software going forward as newer technology equipment comes forward. Rather I offer better angle - a platform that manufacturers must follow while developing their hardware solutions. This may sound too aggressive, but in reality once such platform gets on its feet, then the manufacturers either have to change their software charging models to compete or find means and ways to put as many road block as possible for it not to succeed. Here are some the major problems they (the manufacturers) will face... First, compliance with such platform, rather than non-standard of compliance exist today. Second, new much broader competitor that is backed by much larger engineering community - they can not allocate the dollars to have such engineering power. Third, hardware compatibility list that should comply what we want - at the moment each manufacturer has their own proprietary formats and compressions and no single format that is an industry standard. Fourth, software platform that they can develop their own distributions and then their own hardware... once such hardware becomes available to the market, then it should (or better) work with such platform. Fifth, compete on the quality of the hardware and not on a proprietary formatted software. They stand a chance to loose market share by staying with their limited platforms - rather they should focus on producing better hardware solutions... and many others... the list is too long to share, but I think you get the drift... If the industry chooses not to be open minded and not to participate and stay on the mercy of such manufacturers, then do not blame anyone but to ourselves with all the problems that they introduce and the prices that they charge. I always belived and still do today that we must have a choice and it is not based on how much we spend. Rather, learn from all our mistakes and learn what other industries have done and evolved over time and with much better results. Think about this for the moment - if Linux or FreeBSD did not come forward, we would have been at the mercy of Microsoft and fewer much smaller operators (Novel comes in mind) and then industry would not have prospered as it has thus far. What is the difference here?

daver, great observations and it comes from your experience I am sure and thanks for sharing it with us. I will not dispute the fact that there will be much less participants in this area from the community - the drive to involve for any sort of compensation may not be there.. However, in our last count, there were over 100+ members contributing to the code and in the last few years that we followed it, the progress was slow and yet very steady. However, it takes a will of an industry to think the necessity of such solution and not driven by any corporate appetite... rather, contribution of time and resource in engineering is what will help this nitche market tremendously. We have been working with both FreeBSD and Linux community for over 20 years and learned much from them rather from any individual company. Many problems were solved with combined efforts and resources and it is not a coincidence that combined OS platform rule in the server web backbone industries.. Of course many much larger companies, i.e. IBM and few others make steady financial contributions, but amount they spent is minuscule compare if they had to fund the entire project themselves.. I guess it serves their purpose to tap on a resource based on much larger community and they solve major industry problems for cents to the dollars... My firm observations is that this security industry needs a consortium of similar community focused more on what we all need rather what serves manufacturers appetite. It is long overdue for this to happen and I firmly believe that the time is right. Such community does not ask for any monetary compensations for such effort, rather contribute time and engineering resources if available. Great ideas always come from actual users of any products and never from dark rooms of any corporate offices.

Hey bud, no hard feelings of any sort.. Just sharing views and ideas here... About (20) years ago someone named Linus Torvalds, who started the Linux ball rolling in 1991. He was sick and tired of Microsoft OS issues and decided to come up what he called it a "free" OS software for anyone who cares to use it. He never thought what it will become and his motives were not to turn Linux into what it is today. Rather, people cought up with the concept and the idea and took it in so many directions and created a huge industry with so many companies that compete against each other selling.... a paper, the CD hard copies of the software and the most importantly, the support. Now, just because it's Free, doesn't necessarily mean it's free. Think "free" as in "free speech," not "free beer," as we in the Free Software/Open Source community like to say. In a nutshell, software that is free as in speech, like Linux, is distributed along with its source code so that anyone who receives it is free to make changes and redistribute it. So, not only is it ok to make copies of Linux and give them to your friends, it's also fine to tweak a few lines of the source code while you're at it -- as long as you also freely provide your modified source code to everyone else. There is a specific distribution that started few years ago that was targeting to provide "free" software for DVRs, which of course used capture cards, etc... Now, many that I know were using this software and tying them with known cheap capture cards and it worked very well... The newest released version works with IP cameras and they work fine as was intended.. Not feature rich, no bells and whistles no special applications running, etc... it is bare bone and yet very well written platform that need much needed help to go to the next level... That community encourages donations, but does not require payment for anything that they produce... It is part of the much larger Linux community, thus the support and the knowledge in such environment is well positioned. Now, we have seen and have this code and we have been studying it for a while now. What makes it very interesting is that this distribution already done the most important part of the design - all the modules are there and the code looks great... It is not user friendly (as the initial Linux OS) nor there is much of support behind it. It is not something you can download today, install on your computer and it works... It is in it raw stages and requires major GUI overhaul and then start adding features and functions that makes other software companies screaming their lungs out. My intentions are not to push any of such software companies out of business nor damage any of their positions in our market. However, I can tell you that once the first real release is out there, it will start pushing them around - and over period of time and with enough information flowing from members and anyone who wants specific features and functions for such platform, future versions will provide it... How to make money with such solution is always will come up... Do not go too far and ask the same question on what happened after the introduction of the Linux in the computer industry.. and how many companies prospered and continue making money and competing against each other for customers... I anticipate that in the near future you probably will start seeing different named distributions of the same software and with some changes that will make such software to look different and may be even operate slightly different.. but such distribution changes must and will be reported back to the community for further fixes and upgrades so that everyone will benefit and not few privileged ones... When people hear word "free", they all run and do not want to believe it. I do not see any negative impact using such solution for our industry for 99% of the users excluding the manufacturers who will be forced to change their strategies in how they operate. What is wrong with that if such concept may find itself more acceptable than "paid" versions out in the market? With combined knowledge and expertise behind of such solution is based on Linux community, then there should be no issues going forward. First real cut of this solution could be available as soon as in the next 90 days or less... Of course I expect too many negatives about it and criticizing its functionality... I only hope that such criticism will provide tangible information for next or future versions will address and fix or even better, add into their content. To prove this concept and its viability, we decided to invest on this idea with three in-house top notch engineers being part of the community. We will cover all the costs associated on all these efforts. I can tell you that talk is cheap, and if someone is putting their money on line for this type of an idea, someone must have a good intentions and not a lot of cheap talk. More will follow on this at later times... but any comments are better than no comments.

I received a several calls from various manufacturers who are participating in this forum and I tell you, they are not happy about what they are reading... Well, get use to it. If we, as an industry, come together and put our thoughts together and come up with a solution that will work at any level without any costs, then we dictate them what we want, rather what they think we should use. Thanks for your comments and taking the time to respond and I hope others may consider doing the same

In one of my posts in this thread, I mentioned that there is a software solution available from Open Source Linux community. It is in its very basic format at the moment and works with few IP cameras, but it is not ready for prime time. What if few people can get involved and expand with this free open source solution and have it available from free download for anyone who can use them? Over period of time and with engineering efforts, we can make this package more valuable with more features and functions. I understand that most do not have engineering background to work with C++ or other languages to make changes or to provide basic service for such package, but what if a company allocates resources and makes changes as the industry needs? The way Linux community worked in the past and even now is based on independent input and fixes coming from so many different sources, which at one point does make it to the final cut. Why not have such opportunity for our industry available where everyone's contribution from the end user to the engineers working on it could help the entire industry? I understand the wars exist on which platform we all have to follow and it is based on what major companies fight for. This way they can dictate what we should and should not do. I am rather offering an option to our industry that give all of us an option for such manufacturers to listen and follow us rather we follow them. If there is a new technology of cameras coming into the market, then such manufacturers of this new technology have to adhere to what we all agree on and not what is important to their bottom line... I strongly belive that we, the integrators, the distributors, the dealer and even end user should reconsider our position in this industry. Without our support, the major have no say or dictation what is good and reasonable. Rather and since IP based solution are here to stay, why can't we all take the control on what we want and what our customer need rather what this companies dictate from their dark corporate rooms? It is my personal intention to break away from the pack that runs at the direction where such manufacturers dictate or the speed that we have to run. I prefer to have a choice on the most important part of our security offering, the software, that is the center piece of our future ventures in supporting our customers. I also think that with combined effort we all can do better to serve our own needs compared to what the manufacturers can through to our direction as a solution. This type of effort is for our own use... this could involve an association of some sort that takes software engineers, the integrators and end users to provide tremendous pull of resources and knowledge that could and will produce better and more desirable solution for us. The basic model is contribution of time and knowledge and not a monetary. Once such project is in place, then we all can evaluate what we want and what our customers ask and with combined knowledge, have such software modernize and to improve over time. Any change or any idea is a good one and there are no bad ideas. What the end cut of the software will have is what majority wants and overrule what major manufacturers think. This could be very ambitious and yet very profitable for anyone who is involves. Nobody can sell the software or monetize its content - it belongs to the community. Rather, you can sell the documentation, the CDs, the support whatever price you choose to sell. Or, your customers can download themselves and install it.. and if there are problems, you can intervene for a fee that you see appropriate and acceptable by the customer to have such solution functional. I am interested to find out if the members of this forum are up for this type of task. If you had this choice and was part of much larger scale of the entire community, will you participate and will you put time and effort to improve such product? Any idea is a great idea, but again the final cut could have what majority wants.. Someone can pickup the source code, make a change for their customer and price what they think or customer is willing to pay, however such change or modification must be reported back to the community - something similar is how Linux community evolved over so many years. At one point of time we, the industry, can dictate what we like from the major manufacturers or any manufacturers and force them to follow our pack and comply what we want and if they choose not to comply, guess what happens... I think industry will be better going forward with solid solutions coming from us, all of us, and without any favoritism with any specific manufacturer. This is not a new concept, however it is for our security industry and I only hope that I/we all can get together on this and make our own mark without any interference from any manufacturer's perception on what we actually need.

Where can we download to test this package? When you say "unlimited cams", what are the restrictions? Is it Windows or Linux based? What really makes this package to stand out vs. most others?

This is even more interesting now... Are you suggesting that to use Exacq software, there are "installation" and "upgrade" costs and that the end user now have to pay for these services? You and other know this product inside and out, thus give you an opportunity to sell it, plus installation costs, plus IP cameras costs, server and storage hardware, etc... Exactly what will it cost to have cheapest four IP cameras package price to include all these products and services? Over $2,000? over $3,000 or more? The point of the argument here is not that someone can not make money, rather what is a reasonable to spend for IP based solution that uses per camera license cost. This existing options are not really options, rather open ended cost centers for anyone who does not understand it or does not care for what they spend. Here is an idea that I have been kicking around for a while now... Why not come up a solution that is available for everyone at no cost to download and use... If someone wants a documentation or the software, then they can buy that as needed basis (this will cover the cost of the engineering or the support). Such platform could be available for the community to use or to change as they see fit at their own risk, unless a company can be put in place to provide the service.. And not to charge for such software, rather charge for support or the documentation or even sending them the software physically. Now, if such option is available, then it is a platform that could take over the entire industry... Case and point - Linux platform initially was for experts... until it started being supported by much larger community. Linux software is free and anyone can download the copy and use without any restrictions.. As matter of fact, you can make changes or additions as you see fit as long as you can share such information with the community. This model not only works, but actually made major headways in the recent decade... Who made money using Linux platform, if nobody can sell the software? Lets take a look for few companies such as Red Hat, Suse and few others, which they came up "their" version of distros... even thought the core is the same Linux... Do you think they are selling Linux or selling paper, CD and support? My last count was that Red Hat was worth over a billion dollar following a simple rule... do not charge for the software, rather for the support the paper or the deliver of the physical software... Now, why can't our industry do the same??? What if there already is a distribution that pre-existing except is not that known or supported yet. What if such distribution really becomes a platform that will allow anyone with engineering background to intervene and make changes as they need and then share such info with the community? This software is and will be available for free for anyone to use (similar to Linux) and the only way to make money for anyone would be to sell the support, the documentation or the physical software... or sell them the computer hardware, the storage or the cameras. Is this above explanation is something that this industry needs or could use? I explored this option with quite of few end users and the response has been extremely positive. The only ones that were against such an ideas were the manufacturers of software only... Hardware manufacturers shown an interest, as it will make their job even easier to product products that will work with a known platform... Any comments are welcome.. and I am very interested on what the members of this forum think about it.

Robert, is this new or is common from them? I downloaded their software yesterday and started to test with one license and looks decent thus far... Did not have a chance to conclude the test, but we will see. Regardless how great the software may function, the issue will still remain on the pricing model - no can do if they charge per license per connection and then yearly "upgrade" or "maintenance" fees. As I stated before, the pricing model is where I and many of my customers have. Open ended costs center - something is what many such software manufacturers want and there is a serious resistance is being built against them right now. Unless these software manufacturers start to sell hardware as a compliment of their offerings, I personally think it is matter of time that either they get bought out (possibility) or fold and disappear.. This is a new trend that they feed from until the entire industry stops them on their tracks... If such companies are open minded and want to stay in business, they should follow what major manufacturers do - start offering ready made complete package covering from 4-channels to maximum they can support. I think they are going against this huge tide that will destroy their pricing model shortly and leave them stranded. Most of these companies marketing does not see this yet, but by the time their realize the facts, it will be too late. I spoke with at least four of such companies recently (even one yesterday) and they started to look at this price models... There is no point to push something that there is a major resistance, thus they have to decide either to stay in the business and compete or fold and leave the industry. There is this IP camera software that was developed by Linux community and it is available free for anyone who needs it. It is very simple and yet powerful platform. We are looking at it and testing right now. The great part about this is not that it is "free", rather give all the code to manage and change as needed, as long as you can share such change. It is very promising, as long as someone has the engineering background and is willing to tackle code to make changes as necessary. What if such software becomes a norm of industry - supported by the community for the community and this way you literally give such for free and make money on selling hardware alone. Not a bad idea, but we will see how this software will work...

Twilo123, how do you suggest the industry should behave? Excellent points across the board, but nothing to suggest what we should do as part of the industry. Now, we have a choice to sit back and do nothing and wait what all these companies may decide what is best or refusal to adapt to their will. Case and point since you brought up Microsoft... what exactly happened when they introduced Vista? Major problems and overall market reaction against it. Why change XP when it worked (and still does) well and try to replace with something less and for an upgrade price? Microsoft has to come up with a new OS every three to five years to keep charging more and more and call it a "new operating system". But public's refusal forced them not only to focus on Windows7 OS, but also extend the support for XP and even for Win2000.. What is the difference here? Adaptation on what is here does not constitute a good business. Rather recognize where the problems are and address properly and refuse to follow the pack - thus force certain companies to change their business tactics... It has happened too many times in our industry and should continue as such without giving them an inch. Pricing models are common for all manufacturers and each has their own perception what they can charge and get away with it. As an example and in case of Bosch, then call it "premium" company, thus they charge one of the highest pricing the market. What makes their pricing justified is not that their products are designed better than most (in case of the most recent IP solutions, they are using Arecont products), it is the customer and technical support mechanism. They have an excellent warranty period and replacement of product is second to none...

Do not know anything about Avigilon. This is why I started this thread. What makes this software rock? What are the price points? Do they just sell the software or it must come with its own hardware? Which manufacturer IP cameras it already adhere to as of now? Is there demo available for download? These among questions that I have at this time. I never ask for anything cheap, rather focus on what is reasonable for paying for any product. There are few packages from majors that start at $25K and push over $200K in a project, but does not mean it is good and works like a charm. Like any software in the market, they all have problems and issues that come up. Here is yet another major issue for such companies - Certification and more certification for a fee. I have seen companies asking over $1K range to "teach" how their product works before they can sell it. Of course, none of such requests were or will even be met. Why pay for "learning" a software before anything happens? I may agree and I mean major "MAY" that some end user should attend such training courses, but that is the job of the reseller - dependent how someone may structure the deal, they may charge or most of the time, include the training and the support associated with selling the package. I fully agree that IP based solution are here to stay - no question there. But, if we do not retaliate against any manufacturer that wants to re-invent the wheel, then we all are in deeper hole. What it really takes is showing refusal to pay for this "license fee" based solutions. Over short period of time, such manufacturers will realize that they are not performing to the "industry standards" in pricing or model of pricing. If we do not complaint nor do anything about it, then nothing will change. Panasonic, CBC, Bosch and even GE recently introduced IP based software solutions that are not based on "cost per license" fee model. I wander why? Is it because they came to their senses and realized much bigger picture? Sometimes a simple common sense is more important than all the marketing hoopla and a major marketing vacuum existing for this type of solutions and all this is a creation of few companies in the loop. If you want to believe them, then that is fine and you can spend whatever they ask. If you do not like myself, then find other companies that are not using that model. IP camera pricing has dropped substantially in the recent year, however the pricing for the software has gone up exponentially. May be it is time for these software only companies to get off their high horse and play by the industry standard rules...

My point exactly... Why do we need to pay yearly maintenance fee to get the new features or updates? It should be a standard offer going forward and not an option to get if you are willing to pay for it. Think about this - if Microsoft charges for each upgrade they do for any version of their operating system, will it be feasible for you to recommend Microsoft? If I understand it correctly, then if you do not pay their yearly maintenance fee, then you can not get any changes that this software offers on their newer versions. Is this correct? If so, then their model is the same as most trying to do - open end cost center for any end user! Customer pays for the software, pays for each connection license and then pays additional yearly fee per license to be kept up to date on changes and fixes that such software undergoes... Does this make any sense to you? I am not against making money, but I am totally against in any solution that does not clarify all the upfront and future costs and more importantly, keeps customers hostage on anything they do. What if there are problems with the software that they were not able to fix during the first year of use (not that this is not a common practice). Any software you design, it always have many hidden bugs that do not come up right away and it takes time to close such holes - and even then, while you fix these bugs, more start pupping up elsewhere - anything man made is bound to fail. If so, then why are customers to pay for such efforts after purchase of such products? I am just voicing my opinion, which is a direct result what our customer complain all the time. Where is this end? Exacq is probably one of the best solutions out there and means nothing if the model of what they sell falls into an open end cost category. Most follow this model and most started seeing falling of sales figures and loosing customer who are not willing to pay for such costs anymore. Rather, Panasonic, CBC America, Bosch and few others started to sell ready made IP software package that does not cost more than initial sell and no yearly maintenance or upgrade fees. They include such costs for the period of three years and why can't other follow the same? Here is an idea - Why not come up a fixed price per let say, 4-ch, 8-ch, 16-ch, etc. number of connection to such software and offer three years warranty for such product. Simple and easy solution. If customer wants 4-ch or 64-ch, then give them such package without hidden costs. If such customer is willing to pay for such solution, then they do not have to be bound by yearly additional costs.

I am not referring to 4 camera or 16 camera solutions. If we go by those numbers alone for lets say 64 cameras or higher, where is that leave the overall pricing? OK, so Exacq is charging per license and if we are considering them, obviously the overall pricing comes to $9,600... is this the value that Exacq is putting on the table? From what we learned, the cost per connection with Exacq is $100 at MSRP... To offer a streamline solution, this Exacq package will not work. Have looked at few others with similar cost per connection license fee model. It makes no sense, as these companies assume that they are yet another Microsoft. What is this "after first year" maintenance fee? Why? Is this yet another way to guarantee reoccurring revenue for their engineering efforts? I personally think this is wrong and the ones who are charging using this method will not survive. May be our industry is new for IP based solution, but that does not constitute for throwing something in the middle and call it norm. There few major manufacturers started to change this concept and offering complete software for one time charge and without any license fees for each camera connection nor charging for yearly maintenance. If there is something wrong with their take, I'd like to hear about it. We have seen many others in the market charging some ridiculous amounts and tried to persuade us that it is ok and this is how it works. However, resisting such a marketing tactic does work and I see lately this model is changing. Would you be willing to pay for a license from Microsoft or from Adobe and others for purchasing a software and then agree to pay yearly maintenance fee? I know that I will not even consider it..

Yes... I understand there are quite of many companies that live from license fee per IP camera connection, yearly maintenance fees, some charge for server software and some do not. Some have pricing start at $100K per package some start at $5K and by the time you start adding all the other costs, it pushes over $15K... From what I see, this section of our industry is very much stagnated. Dependent who you talk to and depends what your application is, the pricing could be very discouraging factor to offer to end users. Some that we tested are ok, but the functionality is cheesy... Better ones start in a such high cost that it is very difficult to offer to end users. Few major recent came forward with single license for software solutions up to 64 connection... Panasonic, CBC and few other jumped ship so far. I hear that American Dynamics is about to do the same. It makes no sense to have a IP solution that caters the top 10% when they can sell more for the rest of the 90% customers. How is Mobotix? Is there limited time software evaluation available? Does it support different manufacturers, i.e. Arecont, Hikvision and others? Is it a single license for server and if so, do they charge per IP connection and even then, how many IP cameras per software? Does it support H.264 and if so, which manufacturer cameras? I have few fairly large projects that we need decent software, but nothing from our lineup makes any sense. Most likely we will provide the hardware alone, but thus far I have not seen anything tangible in IP software that makes any sort of sens. Any other recommendations?

Anyone can point me to the right direction where can I buy USB cameras? Application involves cameras and monitors installed on the forklifts for general liability purposes... I found very decent priced monitors operating with 12VDC, but require USB based cameras or board cameras... Any suggestions?

D-link recently increased their lineup for POW switches.. As matter of fact they actually trying to break into our business by offering IP camera solution including cameras, software, storage, etc... Here is their link: http://www.dlink.com/category/productcategories/?cid=73 - they presently have 24 port POE and already talking about up to 48 position switch with POE... These switches are commonly available - check with your local distribution...