bryan1656

Rory: T&E = Testing and Evaluation Poorowner: No I don't have experience with that bullet yet. Although I've used board cameras that had identicial specs on the board, and I've used board cameras with the same microlens. The field of view is about 90 degrees. The more affordable (I hate saying "cheap") cams using the ExVIEW and SuperHAD, etc. that have lux numbers in the .02 - .0002 range are going to be best suited for almost exclusive low light applications. You are right in thinking that the lux sensitivity will cause problems in full daylight. A camera such as the one I posted as an example would be what I'd be looking at for use when the concern was primarily getting good pictures at night, like when someone was creeping around at night under the cover of darkness. Specific problem - more specific solution. For overall general residential CCTV that includes god daytime... then you are thinking as I would. Less sensitive to IR and using exterior security lighting to help you get good images at night. Keep in mind that visible light contains light in the IR spectrum. The only reason to use IR only light is to be able to light up the area for viewing covertly...without using visible lights. (Although many active IR illuminators advertised as invisible actually give off a tell tale red glow! Buyer beware!) Good day/night cams can work very well. Although limited, my experience with "more affordable" day/night cams... where the IR filter is switched out of the ay of the lens under low light conditions, ... is that these often seem to get "confused" during intermediate periods such as dsk and dawn.. and rapid changes in light such as headlight wash, etc. can trick them up... it varies from cam to cam and from install to install on whether or not it would be a problem. I'd say that for all around general residential use, you could do pretty well to find an affordable color day/night cam at at least 420 lines and about .2 to .02 lux - and then augment with motion activated exterior security light(s) such as a dual 150 watt PAR, or even low watage lights out in your yard helping to illuminae any specific target areas, such as gates, near trees where someone might be able to climb over easily, etc.

Oh yeah.. I know it. Everyone is all about the color... but you can get higher resolution with B/W and they are better for IR. I'd prefer higher resolution chipsets, especially when your using low quality glass (plastic) optics on these less expensive cams. - Which means my default is with b/w cams. I like color in there somewhere for some apps so that you can get color descriptions... but depending on a number of factors, the color recorded/viewed doesn't look the same is what the color actually was. Ferinstance... metallic gold cars can look silver or white whith some cams and under some conditions. This can present problems for investigations and for court.... you've got three witnesses, one describing the car as tan, one gold, and the other says creme... and then your video shows it kind of whitish. Anyway... yeah.. I like the B/W cams better too as a general rule.. for thier better suitability for low light and higher resolution... especially when you are trying to get the most out of lower end equipment like board (and bullet) cams. And yeah... the specs are a good starting point, but due to all sorts of variables, just because the chip is capable of 420 lines doesn't mena that is anywhere near what is coming out of the wires on the back end. That's why I try to T&E when I can.

I really like the Sony ExView and SuperHAD CCD boards for low-light. The camera below would be my suggestion, although I haven't been able to personally benchtest this one yet. As soon as I get some money saved up, I am going to buy one os these to take aclose look at. From the specs, it looks like I've used the same CCD on board cams, and I've used similar lenses on board cams.... I've just never used this particular config in a bullet. However, this has the low-light lux rating I'd be looking for, and it has good resolution specs. Anyway.... SuperCircuits has them retailing for about $130 and the model number they use is the PC88WR. http://www.supercircuits.com [Not a recommendation, just an example.] PC88WR Specs: Sony Super HAD Ex-View CCD 0.0003 lux 600 line resolution metal weatherproof enclosure 3.6 MM precision microlens with 92 degree FOV compact 0.75 diameter X 2.67 long 12 volts DC at 100 mA If somebody has feedback on this cam, I'd love to hear it. I've been looking at it to use in just the application posted... residential general use low-light capable. Question for PoorOwner, why do you want to use IR lighting instead of regular outdoor security lighting?

kaysadeya, I'm totally with you. I've worked with alot of people on extremely low budget residential systems.. and these are folks with more than a property interest. They are folks with serious concerns for their physical safety. A residential system isn't "just" a residential system. Sure, someone wanting video as an "extra" just in case they are victims of burglary or home invasion is one thing... but someone who is the victim of domestic stalking is another, and a high profile celebrity another, and a high profile executive whose family members are a target for kidnapping, etc. yet another. As Cooperman said, it is the application first, then you draw down from there. I understand that sometimes you just have to do the best you can with what you've got. I've used the heck out of cheap cameras and other less expensive equipment in a number of applications and will continue to do so mainly in residential and small business applications where the budget is a limiting factor. This "lower end" equipment has its place just as Rory suggests.

quote: "The main thing is to always let the client know exactly what is what, problem is most installers just sell them the cheap products and dont give them a choice, or dont let them know what else is out there." Well said, Rory. I thought it was important enough to bear repeating.

Again.. I hate to disagree, but... I've worked enough bank robberies to know that "bank" does *not* automatically equal "good CCTV". I'd hate to see anyone think that some equipment was good and buy it thinking it was good, just because it used to be installed in some bank somewhere. I don't want to let anyone labor under that false assumption. Also, even if it *was*/*is* a good camera..... that worked well in an indoor environment with artificial lighting; .....it is not neccessarily going to be what I want to work outdoors, subjected to a range of severe weather conditions, over a broad range of lighting conditions, especially at night, etc. etc. Apples and oranges in my opinion. Workable, yes. Doable, yes. But still two very different things. For a *very* basic and affordable residential system intended to address concerns with outdoor intruders in a specific ingress/egress area, I'd be looking at a single camera VHS system with motion detector and monitor - and askng why remote IP was a "deal killer". If multiple cams were desired for increased coverage of the property area, then I'd be looking at the lower end stand alone DVRs (80 to 120MB) that allow for full quality record on motion detection, alarm buffer, alarm integration, and the IP stuff, etc. If residential intruders are a concern, then physical security and intrusion detection systems should also be examined. Again.. my humble two cents for the sake of discussion. Opposing opinions welcomed and encouraged!

All respect to kaysadeya, but I have to repsectfully disagree. Any video surveillance system is dependant on the quality of images it creates and records. This depends on the camera on the "front end". (Well, actually it begins with the Sun, but I won't get that technical). My reasoning is this: A $1500 DVR that is "being fed" by a low end camera with poor resolution and poor light sensitivity, that isn't properly installed, focused, adjusted, etc. is only going to produce poor images. If the image isn't of sufficient quality to provide identification, or even recognition level images, than it won't matter that the DVR is any good. It's like the old computer saying - GIGO "Garbage in, Garbage out." A quality camera that is properly installed will produce outstanding images even on a basic low-end VHS recorder. If the system doesn't provide the quality images that you need when you need them, then it was worthless. I recall a case of an armed robbery and triple murder where the company spent $60k on a CCTV system. It wasn't worth squat. The door camera was not properly installed, etc. and there were absolutely no useable images from any part of the system even after forensic video analysis. The system was put in for the express purpose of providing valuable evidence in the event of a violent crime... yet the system failed to deliver. That crime is still unsolved, to my knowledge. I am working a case right now that is very similar... problems with the digital video. If the CCTV system doesn't do what it was supposed to do, which is to produce quality video images for use in civil or criminal court, and for use in civil or criminal investigation... then it is a waste of money. The best DVR in the world, connected with the best cable in the world, using the best installation techniques in the world.. will still only produce poor images when it is "being fed" by a poor quality camera. However, a high quality camera can still send good quality images to even the most rudimentary recorder... and you can upgrade recorders at a later time. If the system is used primarily for monitoring, such as with a guard station where someone is watching monitors for access control, etc and recording is a secondary concern - you still want to provide your human element with as much info as possible, which means as good a picture as possible, to allow them to discern facial features, objects in hands, bulges in coats, etc. Again, all due respect to anyone whose training and experience leads them to a different opinion. But my NSHO is to start with a proper camera that gives good images, properly install it with proper lighting.. and then you've got good images to work with. Recording systems can meet basic needs at reasonable prices, and can be upgraded over several generations while the cameras continue to provide good composite signals one tech generation after the next. My two cents. YMMV.

quote: "By the way, bryan1656, the point of this poll was to start a dialog on the exclusive nature of the Dealer's Only topic. I was never serious about a User's Only topic." So it is doubly ironic that I didn't catch the irony and instead tried to, like..point it out!? DOH! LMAO Okay, I'm a dumb***! I like helping DIYers and end users here on the forum when I can. I also enjoy, and appreciate, the help that I've received from other dealers/installers. I enjoy and encourage the free exchange of info. However, I also see the reasonable need to keep certain business related information private. My two cents.

Dang! Schweet! Yes, thanks for taking the time to put that together and posting it!! Very very kewl! :thumbsup:

Well, I loaded the pCAM app onto my palm and have played with it a good bit... this thing is totally the shiznit!! I'm gonna play with it some more and if it holds up... I'll be send that guy his $15 fersure!!!

A watch that summons help? The Breitling Emergency model http://www.breitling.com/en/models/professional/emergency/ [i think it works better if you hum the theme to James Bond.]

I've played with one to see how I liked it and I didn't rush out to get one.. if that tells you anything. It's not bad, but it ain't exactly the Cat's Pajamas, either, IMNSHO. - it works somehow in generating current which makes me nervous about board circuits. - it doesn't actually get cool enough to touch instantly... so no throwing it in your pocket the instant you are done with it. - I didn't care for any of the tips, personally. I thought they were a little big. I'm sticking with my butane for now, but if you've got the dough then I could see how the Cold Heat unit could be a nice tool for the kit for what I call "odds and ends" type jobs. It was a neat little unit, and I'll probably pick one up one day just to have around. But there are alot of tools ahead of it on my "get ASAP" list. My two centivos .. YMMV

Not when it comes to trying to catch a falling hot soldering iron!

I thought it was, "Your tools are only as good as you are."

I'll add that one of the handier things I use is a lightmeter. Mine is on old analog that I got used/cheap back when I did alot of still photography. It doesn't measure lux, only footcandles, so I have to do a conversion. footcandles x 10.76 = lux It's pretty handy for checking lighting conditions in various places, such as shadows, etc. - take some readings and do the math to come of with a scene average, high, and low. I know it is probably a little overkill as far as most CCTV installs go, but I like it. Maybe it is just the old photographer in me.... I just like doing it oh yeah... and a tape measure!

WOO HOO!! (Bow Chicka Bow-Bow!!) pCAM $15 Shareware!! http://www.davideubank.com/ I'll have to wait till tomorrow to download and hotsynch it, but this looks like the Bee's Knees!!![/i]

Holy binary code Bat Man!!!! a lens calculator for palm!!!!! Thomas YOU ARE THE MAN!!!!! I'll report back with a link if I can find it.

If they are looking at anything close to a SCIF or critical infrastructure, than anything short of a pro won't cut it. Hopefully they've got a consultant who has already done a risk asessment and site survey and they are just trying to save a little money on subbing out this specific task.

If I had it to do over again, I'd go ahead and get a ratchet style crimper instead of the budget version. Maybe next x-mas... No preference on which maker, though. As far as wire strippers go, I don't personally like the automatic ones... and usually just use the regular kind, or my pocket knife. It's personal preferrence. Do what you like. As long as it works well, it ain't wrong.

The old fashion way is to do your own math. Angle of view is a whole thing that makes my head hurt - maybe someone else will take a swing that is better at the cipherin'. Here's what I use for basic lens selection - others may use something slightly different. (value for CCD size) x Distance in feet ------------------------------------------- (Width of desired target FOV) values for ccd size 1/4 = 3.1 1/3 = 4.4 1/2 = 6.2 1 = 12.7 So, using a 1/3" CCD to get a 10 foot wide FOV for a camera 20 feet away, it would be 3.1 x 20 divided by 10. Then round to nerest focal length. The other way is to use online lens calculators which will give you your specs based on CCD size, desired FOV, etc. (example below, not an endorsement or recommendation for the vendor.) http://www.thermosight.com/LensCalculations.htm You can also use a lens selector. I'd really like to get one of these, but I'll keep doing without for the time being. (Below is offered just as an example, not an endorsement or recommendation) http://www.scdlink.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=1628 I also want to get a program called LensCalc with looks like it offers some NICE features. Haven't gotten it yet, though as it's around $100 USD. (Again, just passing on the info. Not an endorsement or recommendation.) http://www.cctvconsultant.co.uk/index.htm?http://www.cctvconsultant.co.uk/lenscalc/form.htm HTH YMMV

maybe some dealers should set up 900 numbers and charge for the always friendly and helpful tech support like the computer companies do, then? Call up and pay $.95 minute to talk to a guy in India named "Brad" with a modern equivalent of a three-ring-binder in front of him? kaysadeya, your idea already exists. There are plenty of retailers out there offering "package" systems sesigned for general purposes to be used by DIYers. They will "upgrade" components on request. They offer "customer service" about like the computer companies do, hit or miss. AS for the folks here saying they don't want to deal with DIYers... maybe in thier personal business with phone calls and such, but they are also logging on here and helping folks... just in their own time and according to what they feel like doing. It is a *little* ironic to me that you don't seem to appreciate the fact that some dealers/pros don't want to deal with the CCTV equivalent of a "luser", but this is at the same time that you were inquiring about a forum where dealers/pros were specifically prohibited from participating. Personally, I support DIY to a great extent.. but I also know that there are some times when people would save money and time with pro - and many CCTV systems are there for very serious reasons and it is very important that they work properly. Most folks aren't in a position to recognize what "properly" is. They think low res color is better than high res B/W becuase the color looks more like TV. :rolleyes: If they want more than just some basic help on a few questions for a "low priority" type application, maybe they can put me on a small retainer. That way I get compensated to help them, and I can get contractual first dibs on any work that needs to be done if they decide to bring someone in to get things running after they had a go at it. For other more serious applications, if I am to truly be of service to them and offer valuable and accurate advice, then my best advice would often be for them to hire a professional, even if it isn't me. My two cents.

I'm planning on going for the ASIS PSP cert at some point, then maybe NICET cert, and after that, maybe the ASIS CPP and PCI. I know thier value is limited in terms of whether or not they will directly translate into more business. Mainly I just enjoy learning new stuff and I like programs like this where other pros have identified resourcs and learning objectives. Mostly, I guess they just give me something constructive to do that doesn't require greens fees, lost balls, and that I can do indoors, at night, while drinking beer!

The only one I personally know of focusing on CCTV tech is NICET. http://www.nicet.org/certification/video.cfm I'm not certified, but I may eventually work towards it. I'd love some feedback from other folks on what they think about it, or other types of certification programs for various types of designers/installers.

Wow! Thanks for taking the time to share that CCTV_Australia! Good on ya!

Me too. Although I'd replace "*good*" with "servicable" or "decent". To me, I put them in the category of being a step up from a time lapse VCR and multiplexer. You don't have the issues associated with tape use, etc. IMHO, for the average mom-and-pop store, check cashing place, or homeowner wanting to go to that "next step" in residential video integration; I think they fill a niche. But I'd also like to hear some other opinions from folks who may have more experience in working with the truly high-end systems to hear how they compare.