CraigVM62

I did a quick search and found no answers from other threads so thought to go ahead and ask.... I have an old analog system which is cabled as shown in the crude drawing I have attached as a .jpg file. The 16 channel DVR is fed from 4x of these 4 channel video baluns. I am trying to understand what my options are to upgrade to HD Analog or IP cameras. Are my two options as follows ??? Replace the Coax from cameras to 4 channel baluns with USTP and replace the baluns with POE switches that can then utilize the USTP back to the DVR which will be replaced with a NVR or Replace that run of USTP with 4 runs of coax between baluns and essentially have coax runs for each camera back to the DVR location where the DVR is replaced with a Analog HD Recorder ??? Note I have 4 channel power supplies by each transmitting balun and the receiving balun is right next to the DVR location. Is there no way to send IP cameras over RG-59 or Analog HD over a single pair of USTP "being that I have just that single run of USTP to each balun location. My knowledge really needs to catch up with the times. Thanks for any suggestions or info you have to share.

Ditto Cameras at best will be seen and act as a deterrent, may help catch who took your valuables and trashed your home or worst case give you footage of those who can not be identified. A tactfully installed alarm system as mentioned will scare them off, perhaps at the cost of a broken window or broken door / lock. With indications that there is an alarm system, "yard sign, keypads or motions visible when looking in through windows" most often will cause them to move on. There are "smash and grabs" where they grab what they can until the sirens go off. Rare that they stick around for any length of time though. In our area the average police / sheriff response once contacted by a monitoring system is 45 minutes. Two zones must be triggered before they will respond because of the high amount of false alarms due to equipment failure. An individual saying their neighbors alarm is going off and they see vehicles / people they do not recognize gets high priority / quick response from authorities. As you can imagine factors like how near neighbors are and diligence in arming your alarm when leaving the home factors in how effective an alarm is.

I have a 2 year old VMAX-480 which started having major issues after being installed for 2 months. Pulled, placed backed in box and sat it on a shelf telling myself to not forget to contact DW for warranty service. 18 months later I finally get around to contacting them with the thought that I am glad they have a 5 year warranty. Contacted them to get an RMA and included a requested copy of the receipt from ADI who is the authorized distributor from whom I purchased the unit. Digital Watchdog informs me that it falls under "Limited Warranty" which I think is no problem since they promote a "industry leading 5 year limited warranty" Problem is they state their limited warranty only covers the hard drive. Everything else will be my responsibility, including a $95 estimate fee that must be paid up front. Parts, Labor, Return Shipping will be my responsibility, again unless it is only a hard drive issue. Has anyone else dealt with Digital Watchdog and warranty issues ???

As a long time residential electrician who turned to specializing in the low voltage side of the industry, I think Luckyfella gave spot on advise. Just explain to the installer what you expect to see, and most importantly not see as far as exposed wires. I know I have spent a good amount of time up in attics and in crawl spaces just so I could tell a potential customer what I can and can't do in regards to hiding wires. I have never been a believer in telling a customer "I will do my best to hide wires where I can" It may take some effort during the walk through, but I should be able to tell the customer 95% of exactly what it will look like when I am done. If the installer is an electrician, make certain they are familiar with CCTV equipment and have experience installing the hardware also. Just because a person can get conductors from A to B doesn't mean those cables will be of any use when they are done. Any decent installer will have a resume of past projects that will show off his work. They should be able to show you projects and not just give a few phone numbers of people who will praise them. In a nutshell, just try and find a Super Installer. They will have the experience that an electrician typically has, familiar with structures as they are being built so they know what to expect when fishing finished walls. At the same time, they will be Ultra Geeky "meant as a compliment" knowing current technology in and out.

I hope this is not highjacking the thread since I think my question falls somewhat along that of the original posters. I am looking to install a couple of HIKVISION DVR's which state they utilize 960H technology and I already have a decent supply of 700 TVL cameras I purchased before 960H technology came out. My question is will the DVR receive as good of an image with 700 TVL cameras as they would with cameras that promote 700 TVL and 960H technology ? Cabling all RG-59 Thanks

I think it is safe to say that if the demands on the system can be met with analog and budget will not allow for IP cameras, then analog is a solution. I had an installation for a Storage Facility that needed to capture people entering hallways with the cameras no more than 10' from each hallway door. Total of 32 cameras with several 500' from camera to DVR location via conduit and small junction boxes. With their specific budget, IP Cams and a NVR was simply not an option. Analog was enough to meet their needs as it easily provided a prosecutable image. IP would have met their needs even better, but should I have told them to only call me when their budget could be increased to go with an IP system ? My answer to the question / title of the thread is "when analog will fit the customers needs and meets a limited budget"

So far, my only experience with cameras for catching license plates have been for a couple of storage facility installations. They were simple enough since vehicles would need to stop at a specific location so to punch their entry code in for the access gate. Night time illumination was as simple as a motion activated 500 watt halogen flood light mounted just below the camera housing. I now have a residential installation where the customer wants to install a camera that will capture vehicles / plates that drive by their home. It is a private road that dead ends just a hundred feet past their home so vehicles do go by slowly. There is a large heave post just 5 feet back from the road that the camera can be mounted off of . The preference is to install a covert camera via a large fake custom built birdhouse. I was thinking of installing a box camera within which would allow for a fairly small hole for it to look out with a IR flood just below the birdhouse. What specific features would I want to look for in a box camera for this application? I was planning on using a longer length lens in the 5-50mm range and guessing a DC Auto Iris version would still be for the best. The camera will be installed high enough that it won't be hit by even the high beams when the vehicle is in target focus area. Is there an ideal height that tends to provide best results ? Thanks

I went back a few pages to see if a thread addressed this question and didn't find any so I hope it is worth starting a new one..... In a nutshell, I have an installation with 2 structures approximately 250' apart linked with a dedicated low voltage conduit containing 2 Cat-5e cables dedicated for the CCTV system. One structure "House" has the DVR , power supply and a number of cameras while the second structure "Pool House" will have 3 cameras. One cat-5e will be feeding the remote cameras to the DVR and returning DVR monitor back via passive baluns . Both structures have independent electrical services so my concern is grounding issues. Would the safe thing be to use the second Cat-5e to feed power to the cameras in the remote structure ? My CCTV distributor has tried to convince me that ground loop issues are never a problem when using baluns over UTP. I would like to install a power supply on the remote structure which will allow me to save the second run of Cat-5e for future expansion. Luckily I have the options of changing from one to the other depending on what works best, but it is nice to have an idea what to expect from others experience. A few details include that the conduit is only 1" and also contains a couple other Cat-5e and Coax runs for Data, CATV and Security. No room for running RG-59 for CCTV Thanks

There is no way for them to know this. Even if they were to take snapshots of each connected camera and then calculate it based on those image sizes, Image size gets larger and smaller from motion in the video. Additionally if one did this at night and all the cameras are in BW, the image size would be much greater when it switches to color in the day. In addition to that, the image size also depends on the quality of the image, the camera used. As mentioned, storage calculators can only give rough estimates, most of which are generally too unreliable to warrant using. And yet they do have that feature .... Page 65 http://publiclibrary.dwcc.tv/DVR/VMAX480/UserManual_VMAX480.pdf I am not saying it will best best utilize the DVR's rescources based on each cameras capability, but it is a nice feature for those looking for an "EASY BUTTON" when setting up their DVR and have an idea of how may days of recording is needed. I am also not suggesting that a Digital Watchdog DVR would be the best solution for the original posters needs, but using it as an example of how manufactures have made great strides in making todays DVR's more setup and user friendly.

Ava, The 16 channel DVR I was suggesting is their Stand Alone DW-VMAX480D. I believe they just recently changed their warranties for the Stand Alones to 5 years and have not completely updated their website. I have their 2011 print catalog inhand which states 5 years as it is also stated under "features" from the product page found here: http://www.dwcc.tv/product_dvrs/dvrs_main.asp?id=96 I don't know of any major manufactures that give prices from their websites. The majority of their products will be purchased and installed by professional contractors who rather the end customers not know what they payed for them. I do not know which, if any online retailers are considered to be Authorized by Digital Watchdog. You are correct in the video motion easily being fooled with exterior cameras. In programming you can mask off areas so things like tree branches blowing in the wind will not cause needless recordings. Bugs, Birds and object in the wind that might fall near the camera will still be an issue. Like motion lights, you can set the sensitivity of the video motion. Problem is if you reduce the sensitivity to try to reduce false recordings, people and vehicles well in the background of the image will most likely not activate the recording. The only time that I utilize video motion recording for exterior cameras are if they are focused specifically on a door or entrance where there is nothing in the background. There are several programs on the internet which allow you to calculate needed hardrive size for DVR's This one might be worth trying to get an idea of what you would need. https://www.aventuracctv.com/calculator/default.asp? hope that helps

Being an old fart, I fully understand how things have changed regarding the need for security measures these days. Luckily technology has also changed to make providing those measures much easier. I have recently starting installing the VMAX series of DVR's by Digital Watchdog which, like many other DVR Manufacturers, make setup very simple. They have a feature where you set how many days of recording you would like. The DVR then sets all cameras at the highest frame rate and resolution which will provide the number of days you requested. You still have the option of setting each cameras frame rate and resolution individually if desired. That way you can set priority cameras at a higher resolution and frame rate than others. You can set some or all cameras to only record when "video motion" is detected. I have found that it is best to use video motion detection for interior cameras. Even if you have not set up a DVR before, it will not take much reading from the manual to understand how Video Motion Detection works and how you can customize it to accommodate different situations. If the only concern is recording during non business hours, that can also easily be set up. Best thing yet are resources like this forum where questions can be answered. I have learned as much from reading posts and asking questions here as I have from many installation manuals. One last thing is when you decide what DVR you want to go with, don't just search the cheapest source you can find on the internet. As an example, Digital Watchdog offers a 5 year warranty if purchased through an authorized distributor. This excludes sources like Amazon and other major retailers found on the internet. So best to confirm via the manufactures website that your source won't exclude you from their warranty.

Matt, Thanks for the replay.... I regret the cameras are 12 volt only. I am not certain I know how to identify a Transformer type vs. Switching power supply At the house where there are 7 cameras, I had planned on using a 9 channel power supply such as this In the pool house with only 3 cameras, I was going to use a "brick" 12 volt 4 amp regulated power supply as used to power LCD Monitors. I typically pigtail out inline fuse holders so each camera has it's own fuse. Am I correct in this would be a Switching type ?? With as cheap as they are, I could easily install a 4 channel PS like the photo above instead. If I did have to power the remote building cameras over the second Cat-5e I would have used the "brick" power supply while still putting the inline fuses at the other end. Luckily all cameras are mounted onto siding or soffits so not grounded. Thanks for taking time to help !!!

This is the first time I have had to deal with this, but then I do a fraction of the installs that many do here. The business had one camera that overlooked it's entrance and front windows. This camera "box camera in EMI housing / bracket" was stolen last night. They knew to come at the camera from behind and tossed a rope around the bracket "as the video showed". Must have hooked it to a car bumper as it was anchored well into the concrete wall. The housing was tied into the the alarm system which went off instantly. This was attempted a few months ago, but they must have just tried to pull the camera down by hand with no results. I had tried to convince the business owner to invest in a second camera so they cross fire, with each camera being in the frame of the other. Thinking this would be a great deterrent. Has anyone else here had issues with camera theft. Any suggestions to prevent this from happening again would be greatly appreciated.

I do hope that first response did not come across as discouraging you from doing the work. My intended point was to just put into prospective how much less you should consider charging. As a conventional electrician years ago, most of my weekends were, like most electricians, spent doing "side jobs" There was an actual standard in regards to what people expected to pay an electrician for these "under the table" projects being $35.00 per hour vs. the $65.00 when out there representing your company. If you just try and slightly beat the prices customers have been provided bids for from licensed contractors, they will consider the factors I had originally mentioned and expect a much greater discount. The great thing is you have the knowledge base many of the guys here have to offer regarding questions. I sure have learned a great deal reading here.

I have had a few budget installations where cheap IR Cameras did surprisingly well. The demands on them were limited as they just had to provide an image where people could be identified at closer ranges. I don't have any images captured, but found one online showing the type of results I have typically had. These were with very cheap IR 4-9mm Day / Night Cameras that I picked up for under $90 and can be found from many sources including FLebay. No doubt they fall well short in the eyes of those who have seen high end IR solutions. These customers were amazed at the fact that a decent image could be captured in complete darkness and thought such technology would have cost many times what they paid. I have found that the actual IR illumination is around 1/3 of what they advertise though.

I don't know if this will help, but this is what I did. Not too many years ago, before we had 32, 24, 18 and 14 volt cordless drills, I had several 12 volt Makita drills, batteries and chargers. Since I always had batteries charged up for the drills, I took a charger that had stop working and gutted it out. Now it provided 12 volts when I inserted a charged battery pack. Here in the US you can pick up 12 volt cordless drills pretty cheap. You could then look for a used charger on ebay to convert as I did. It would give you a good sized 12 volt battery source and you could use the drill for lighter duty work. If you already have a good collection of higher voltage drills, you could again get a used / dead charger and convert it. Use a diode to drop the voltage to the 12 volts you need.

I can't say I have ever dealt with what your having to work with, but I thought I would toss this out there... I have had situations where I had to run low voltage wires through large conduits which also held high voltage lines. To avoid interference via inductance, I installed my low voltage wires in steel flexible conduit, then ran that though the large conduit "luckily there was plenty of room". This acted as a significant shield, avoiding picking up any voltage / interference from power lines over the 100 or so feet distance involved. I made certain the flexible conduit was grounded at one end. If space is limited, you can get flexible metal conduit as small as 3/8 ID which could accommodate a Cat-5 cable if you don't mind considering baluns. What kind of room do you have as a passage way in these poles ???

Maybe it is the electrician in me that makes me think this way ... but ... I think my major concern would be a that my power supply will not trip via it's internal breaker / fuse before the current exceeds what my conductors can safely carry before becoming a fire hazard. Should the wires carrying that current get damaged and shorted. Perhaps those who are much more "DC Savvy" can elaborate on when one might be concerned when working with common 18 gauge wire as often found with Siamese Cable.

Some things to consider ..... I think many here are licensed and bonded contractors such as myself. So the customers are paying not only for our experience and knowledge, but also for a confidence in that we will be in business and there if warranty service is required. If a mishap should happen during the installation, they know we have insurance that will cover any kind of repair someone else may need to perform. There is no issue getting around permits / inspections which may need to be documented for insurance discounts provided by our installations. When I just worked for a company, I did a good amount of "side work" where I came in similar to the position you sound to be in. I knew that I could not offer everything that would be there if I came in as a representative of my employer and hence did not charge near the same rate for labor or mark up of equipment I provided. So do consider that anyone paying for your services may be taking a chance on you expecting a major savings in return. Just food for thought.

At the camera end, which the homeowner never sees, I always use basic crimp on connectors that set me back around .60 cents. I do mostly residential CCTV installations that often have the DVR located along with the A/V racks for the Home Theater and A/V distribution equipment. Since the back of the equipment is typically accessible, customers can see all of the interconnects they often pay several hundred to $ 1,000+ for "Kimber Cable, Monster, AudioQuest..." I will use gold compression BNC compression connectors so they don't look cheap by comparison. I might charge a buck over the $1.50 or so I pay for them. I also label all CCTV cables with a Rhino printer and heatshrink labels to aid in the "professionalism" of the installation. I can't see charging $10 for a $2.00 connector

Just to address some of your basic questions... Cat-5e w/ baluns is typically considered when your working with cable distances farther than RG-59 can handle, or when the cost of RG-59 exceeds the cost of Cat-5e with baluns for the distances in an installation. The only exceptions for me have been when space has been limited in conduits so Cat-5e was used simply because it was the only thing that would fit. You might want to give an indication of how far the cable runs will be from Camera's to DVR. You might also wish to give additional info regarding what your looking for from your CCTV system and the environment the cameras will be dealing with. For example, if a camera will be located in a hallway which is always illuminated via lighting and has no outside windows would have less needs from a camera vs. a hallway lined with outside windows but dimly lit during evening hours. The later situation would need a camera that can deal with a greater variety of lighting conditions.

In the past I have had decent results with Passive baluns, but no runs exceeded 450 feet. I now have a project where distances may be in the 500 to 600 foot range. I am thinking that I should go ahead and utilize Active Baluns. Some of the Active I saw being sold "via the web" state they can be used in conjunction with a passive balun on the opposing end. It looks like they suggest the active balun be at the Monitor / DVR end. I would have guessed you would have wanted the Active Balun at the camera end. Wondering what experience and thoughts you may have on this. Thanks

Well, my question was answered. I especially liked the discussion about cable quality. I confess I more often than not stock up on what ever Cat-5e is on special for the cheapest price Thanks

I had a homeowner call me asking how to retrieve the video from his CCTV system I had installed around a year prior. He stated he had not received his Sunday Paper in several months. His paperboy swore he had delivered it and had even started laying it on his doorstep after he had started questioning regarding it's delivery. The paperboy typically dropped it off around 5:30 AM long before the homeowner was ever awake. The video showed it to be a jogger who he recognized as a neighbor from just a few houses down the street. He stated the guy was a successful dentist. I called several weeks later asking if he had confronted the neighbor with the video and if it went well. He told me that had just gone down and rang the neighbors doorbell. When the dentist came to the door, he handed him a large bag filled the past weeks worth of daily papers, just saying "Here, I thought you might want to know what is going on the other 6 days of the week" and walked away. He said not only did the guy stop jogging by his house, he even made it a point to no longer drive that way in his car, going the other direction which would take longer to leave the neighborhood.

Was speaking to the Samsung Rep who was pushing his 16 channel Stand Alone's for an installation I am about to start. He informed me that Samsung was one of the few manufacturers who allow end users / installers to install additional hard drives without it effecting the Warranty.... Are there manufacturers out there that will void the warranty if you install your own additional drives ??? I was wondering if this is just "Sales Rep Talk" or truth Thanks