Sawbones

Do you really think this discussion is that bad? There's a bit of back-and-forth going on, but nobody is bashing IC Realtime as "teh suxxor." And where do you get that "mad at your wife" angle? A consumer saying "I'll buy elsewhere," is not childish... it's just capitalism, and in this case is likely the result of a consumer/end-user not liking the manufacturer's attitude. The perception, real or imagined, that the manufacturer is looking down their nose at the end-user is poison to a business, and virtually guarantees resentment on the part of the guy shelling out his hard-earned money. A manufacturer may prefer to deal with his/her dealer network, and use the latter as a buffer against taking complaints directly from the consumer, but when the latter inevitably happens (and it will at times), it's best to simply take care of business. Telling a consumer that "we only deal with dealers, not end-users" is rightly perceived as a brush-off... because that's frankly what it is. I have nothing against IC Realtime... I considered them as one of several options in replacing my current Dedicated Micros unit, but I instead decided on a fully PC-based solution (this discussion had nothing to do with that decision). As for the "complaint" thing, that's a given. Every business and corporation has deals/situations that go sideways... what makes the difference is how it's addressed, and what it takes to get it addressed. In that same vein, taking care of a customer is "doing them a favor?" Maybe it is... but maybe it's just good business. Also, would you publicly throw that in a customer's face? Can you see how that might raise the hackles of other consumers?

Did two trips to the desert as a doc... but I missed OIF (took part in Southern Watch, OIJ, and a GWOT SWA deployment). Good to have you back.

I would recommend a IP camera system. I would use a wireless mesh network by Firetide. I have not used this system but everyone that I know uses IP cameras systems says this is the best. www.firetide.com Interesting... hadn't heard of Firetide. Looks pricey.

Not to pick any side or to say that he's wrong, but in their defense he did post video of their techs and provided MattS full name. They should have their anonymity too. Fair enough... and I agree. Most of us here are pseudonymous. I should be clear that I'm not intending to take sides in this fight either.

+1 Please delete the man's real name. That could easily be misconstrued as an attempt at intimidation.

Excuse me very much, but I totally disagree. Without end-users, you've got nothing... NOTHING. No market, no customers, no business. I can't count the number of merchants I've dealt with who simply say "you need to contact the manufacturer for that problem." Why should it matter where the unit was purchased, if it's their product? People who buy from anyone but a dealer are second-class citizens who don't deserve service? The manufacturer can simply wash their hands of it and walk away? In this day and age, that's a risky business decision. With the viral, distributed nature of media and online content, it's a naive business that thinks it can throw product out there, and simply dust customers off. A sale is a sale... and bad customer service is bad customer service. This is the kind of thing that spreads on message boards (like this one), blogs, online forums, YouTube, and other media. The potential sales you lose with that kind of imperious "Ohh... *sniff*... he didn't buy it from a preferred merchant? Well then... *sniff*... he can eat cake." Do you think that's a smart thing to do? If so, please explain it to me.

Why do you say this is not the best camera for security? As long as you don't need something that that is Vandal-resistant or outside this camera could be an option. It's small, has H.264, better image quality than analog cameras, 2-way audio and it's cheap. If you want something that is close in features you would have to use a Axis Q4701 video server and a Analog camera then your total price is $599 plus the price of a analog camera. Exactly the reasons you cited; I agree it would be fine for indoors. The majority of my cameras are vandal-resistant domes, and are exterior cameras that must be day/night, IR-sensitive, and function in very unfavorable weather. As I said, this new Axis model would have been a great alternative to what I did this past Christmas, and I would have been glad to have it. It's cheaper, simpler, and has better video. ************ Edit ************* While we're on the subject, do they have any plans to make a weatherproof version?

Perhaps it's not the best for security, but I think there's a place for something like this. I used an analog Speco camera and an Axis server to webcast Christmas this past year (forwarded the port to the server and emailed the IP address to all the relatives who couldn't attend). Family across the country got to see all the grandkids open presents, and participate via conference call. Something like this would be far easier to set up than what I did, and better picture/frame-rate to boot.

Those are great! Thank you.

This is the truth. You can test this on your computer if you want to see what he's talking about. Start cycling through the different resolutions your video card can provide, and you'll notice that some of them look nice and sharp, while others look fuzzy/blurry/jagged. Almost all LCDs have a sweet spot in terms of resolution. Get much outside that, and everything looks bad.

Those look pretty nice. They appear to be pretty clearly designed for indoor use only...

The IR lights come on, but you get no picture from the camera? You've probably got a dead camera... not unexpected for a hong-kong cheapo. If the camera comes on, but the IR lights do not, your IR may be burned out, and you could check it with a separate illuminator. Honestly, you should probably be avoiding cameras with integrated IR, and instead use a separate IR source with your cameras. Camera-mounted IR is less than ideal for all sorts of reasons.

Is it safe to assume that the Mobotix's dedicated night camera is IR sensitive? I have a major investment in IR around my home, so that's important.

Thanks for the kind words Sawbones. While I am posting this, here is a pop quiz: what are those horizontal lines on the black and white picture Marc posted just above? Only guessing here... but are those actually the scan lines? They're even visible (though subtle) in the well-lit areas of the picture (against the side of the vehicle, and on the porch post). I would have suspected some digital noise in a dark scene, but I wouldn't expect that in the better-lit portions.

I wanted to add that I have an NUUO 4-port H.264 card on order. I'll try to put up a picture of the same scene to go along with the Axis and DM images I've already posted. You can never have too many images. Sometimes that's the best way to make a decision on what you really need.

You might want to buy a little more than you think you need. Your first CCTV system is like a gateway drug... once you've got it set up, you'll find yourself looking at other places to put cameras, different cameras, you'll want additional recording, and so forth. The systems really grow on you... that's no joke. I started with a 4-camera embedded system, went to a 9-camera embedded DVR, then added more storage space, different cameras, infrared, then PTZ... now I'm moving toward an entirely IP-based dedicated NVR setup with megapixel. I've done almost all of it myself, and it's been quite an education (not to mention a lot of fun). And you can't beat the peace of mind. I've caught kids loitering after dark, ringing-and-running on my doorbell, packages dropped off when I'm away from home, etc. Do it. You won't regret it.

Curious - will you be using the Axis unit going forward? Probably so. I've never been completely satisfied with the picture quality my DS2 provided... I've kept it because I practically stole it from the guy who was selling it, it's convenient, provides most of the other features I want, and records to a standard hard drive (that I successfully upgraded to a Seagate SV35 series after the factory one failed). Unfortunately, the picture quality often disappoints, and running motion detection on more than 2-3 cameras slows the DVR to a crawl. It also has some niggling faults that, in my opinion, simply shouldn't exist at the price point in which those units sell. For instance, it has the ability to send you an email with an image, but doesn't allow you to use a mail server that requires authentication. In essence, you have to run an open mail server on your network. Being a bit of a computer security geek, I absolutely REFUSE to do that. I'm struck by the irony of a security DVR expecting you to place such a large security hole on your network. I'd been thinking for some time about going over to a completely IP-based system in the house. I already have a managed gigabit switch supplying the home network backbone, about 4.5TB of network storage on a heterogenous network, and a hand-tuned firewall/caching proxy that keeps script kiddies and other neer-do-wells out. It's all neatly rack-mounted in a locked, ventilated rack cabinet next to my alarm hardware (neatness counts). Putting my existing analog cameras (a mixture of Pano domes, Honeywell domes, etc) on an axis server or two and swapping in a couple of megapixel IP cams seemed like a natural fit. I access my camera views over the network 99% of the time anyway, and only run the monitor output to a TV in the master bedroom via an S-video-to-Cat5 balun. If something goes "bump" in the night, I can simply turn on the TV to see what's up. I'm still thinking about a Mobotix over the driveway... that VGA image is a lot sharper than I thought it would be.

Having had a CCTV system in my house for a couple of years, I can honestly say that I'll never be without one in any home I own. There may be a certain amount of salesmanship involved when you sell your house (of course), but I think most people would consider a CCTV system a value-add to the property. Whether you'll get an even return on your investment or not? That's another question entirely.

For the right buyer, it might. I've got way more in my system than I ever anticipate getting out of it, but that's not why I put it in. Peace of mind and the ability to check in on my family when I'm away are worth a great deal to me.

Wonder what kind of bandwidth all those cameras are sucking up... IIRC, those cameras can do 1.3MP at 15 frames per second. Now, assuming MJPEG and just spitballing the numbers, aren't you pushing 10Mb+ per camera with those settings? Put enough of those on a 100Mb switch, account for protocol overhead, and you're going to run out of pipe.

I didn't intend for my last post to sound like I'm pimping for Axis or anything... Those pictures were both taken today, they're both MJPEG, and at similar resolution (I think the Axis is 704x480, and the DM is 720x480) but the differences in picture quality between the Axis image and the Dedicated Micros DVR image are pretty stark. Just as an aside... the information in this thread has been very valuable, and thank you to everyone who has been adding to it. Amir? Your posts are absolutely stellar. Thank you very much for taking the time.

Just to add a second perspective, here's another screen grab from the identical scene, and the identical camera. This time, however, I took a screen grab with the camera detached from my embedded DVR and attached to an Axis 241q. Bit of a difference, wouldn't you say? The Axis unit claims that it "de-interlaces" pictures. I don't know if that's an Axis euphemism for "progressive scan," but the picture is much cleaner through the Axis unit than through the DVR (a Dedicated Micros DS2).

Say... that's a nice, sharp image. Sharper than I thought it would be for only being 640x480. I'd considered getting a Mobotix camera for over my driveway (currently have a Surveilux PTZ there), but wasn't sure whether the VGA model would be good enough (was leaning towards the 3mp "mega" model). I have to say your VGA image looks much better and sharper than I thought it would... and much sharper than my 4CIF PTZ. Can somebody shed some light on this for me? *************** EDIT **************** Here's a sample image from my driveway:

Haven't ever seen the external PSU version... Mine must be after that series.

The DS2 is their embedded stand-alone DVR, and has an internal PSU.