DVRs and IP

[normicgander 0]

It’s very cold outside, I’m too lazy to go ice fishing and have no installs today. So while getting booth numbers for ISC West and checking out what’s new at various company websites, I found this article to share from the Arecont Vision website:

http://www.arecontvision.com/security_electronics_july05.pdf

 

Mr. Brooks does make several good points, but to state that the “PAL DVR imageâ€

Edited April 10, 2008 by Guest

[rory 0]

I have a real world scenario .. clients want to record but occasionally look at the 4 cameras over the network. Recording is a must. Budget is low.

 

2 of the cameras must be a Day Night with some IR (eg. at least 40-50').

1 Camera must see in low light, eg. BW Exview, Day Night too expensive

1 Camera is color, cheap basic color.

 

Cameras must be cosmetically appealing, well, SMALL (bullet cameras)

Client does not need to see a face, they want to know what is going on.

 

So basically considered IP cameras, but that would still require a PC to record to, and the IP cameras with Day Night and IR to 50' are not cheap, and are bulky in most cases. Price of cat5 to RG59 Siamese is about the same here in the Bahamas so cable cost is not an issue.

 

There will have to be a Cable modem for both, but the IP Cameras require a network - there is another failure point - the switch - bandwidth - or just something else to go wrong.

 

To end, the CCTV installation will be cheaper so that is what was chosen.

 

Client had 2 other quotes from businesses that quoted IP cameras (probably not even megapixel) but they were well above budget.

 

When Megapixel comes down in price I am certain we will be seeing more of that, as that is the quality we REALLY want.

 

Parts used:

-GeoVision GV650-4 & IR Remote

-Intel Core 2 Duo 2.4, 2GB DDR2-667, 250GB HDD, No CD, Mini Case

-2x CNB-B2310NVF CNB Weatherproof Day/Night IR Bullet

-1x KPC-EXH190SWX 1/3" Sony ExView Bullet Camera 600TVL

-1x KPC-S230CHWWX Color Bullet Camera 550 TVL

-1x ALTV615DC44ULM3 Altronix 4 Fused 4A Power Supply

-1x 500' RG59/18AWG Siamese Cable

[normicgander 0]

Rory, Your scenario is illustrative of the real world and I couldn't agree more with your product list. I have a KT&C bullet camera mounted in the gable of my garage to see who coming to the house (has worked 24/7 for 2 plus years, temps -25 to 105f). Also, don't forget covert applications. Try to conceal a megapixel camera . For battery deployed systems, a typical B&W bullet draws around 100mA or less. Analog cameras/DVRs are cost-effect period and will be around for a long time...

[rory 0]

Yep, thanks. It does have its place, even now, but unfortunately most that jump on the IP camera bandwagon these days have very little to no experience in the CCTV Industry prior. This becomes a problem. Their general view on CCTV cameras, or non IP Cameras, are those that they may see on news programs or youtube, typical washed out horrid images from mostly cheap cameras that had been in many cases improperly installed or more likely using cat5 or even telco wire without the correct TX and RX, using extra thin RCA wire, or the DVRs had not been setup properly or were just the bottom of the barrel and perhaps even cloned cards.

 

Price does matter but experience and knowledge can be even more important.

 

The jokiest part is when they think that CCTV techs have no knowledge of networks and computers. Meanwhile we have been dealing with that side of it for several years now (remote video) pretty much since the general introduction of broadband, and some of us even came from an IT background; even some of us are software developers specifically for internet related applications.

 

The day when I can buy a True Day Night IR Bullet (No DSS, No OSD, nothing special, just a switching IR Cut Filter and 811x508 Pixels - this is even becoming an issue with CCTV bullets these days) - better yet Megapixel - that has IP and is Wireless, to just slap in a Linksys router that wont lock up due to bandwidth issues either .. ba da bing

[a-casanova 0]

Yep, thanks. It does have its place, even now, but unfortunately most that jump on the IP camera bandwagon these days have very little to no experience in the CCTV Industry prior. This becomes a problem. Their general view on CCTV cameras, or non IP Cameras, are those that they may see on news programs or youtube, typical washed out horrid images from mostly cheap cameras that had been in many cases improperly installed or more likely using cat5 or even telco wire without the correct TX and RX, using extra thin RCA wire, or the DVRs had not been setup properly or were just the bottom of the barrel and perhaps even cloned cards.

 

Price does matter but experience and knowledge can be even more important.

 

The jokiest part is when they think that CCTV techs have no knowledge of networks and computers. Meanwhile we have been dealing with that side of it for several years now (remote video) pretty much since the general introduction of broadband, and some of us even came from an IT background; even some of us are software developers specifically for internet related applications.

 

The day when I can buy a True Day Night IR Bullet (No DSS, No OSD, nothing special, just a switching IR Cut Filter and 811x508 Pixels - this is even becoming an issue with CCTV bullets these days) - better yet Megapixel - that has IP and is Wireless, to just slap in a Linksys router that wont lock up due to bandwidth issues either .. ba da bing

 

Well said Rory, i agree 100%. Hmm i was considering an IP camera myself guess ill let things mature.

[user1 0]

You clearly have two sides, those that have always done cctv and don't really want to change....and those that are in IT and wonder why in the world they would invest in an analog camera system.

 

Neither is right nor wrong....just depends on the consumer.

 

I myself tell the customer to get as many quotes as possible, and have that person come to your office. Then tell them to sit at your PC and show you a demo of the system they are offering, maybe from another client. If they can't or won't, then they're not likely to be overimpressed with the system they're selling so you, the customer, should be as wary.

 

That way, whether IP cameras or analog with a DVR the customer can actually see what he's getting.

[rory 0]

I myself tell the customer to get as many quotes as possible, and have that person come to your office. Then tell them to sit at your PC and show you a demo of the system they are offering, maybe from another client. If they can't or won't, then they're not likely to be overimpressed with the system they're selling so you, the customer, should be as wary.

 

The client may not have a PC (available) or wont want you to run your 3rd party software on their PC .. so need to provide some other form of demo

[securitysys 0]

IP has a long way to go both in price and functionality.

 

There needs to be better software / compression / cameras.

 

I don't care what anyone says, IP is still way more expensive then analog.

 

We can put in a 32 channel analog system (2 - 16 Channel DVR's), 32 540TVL DNR Cameras and 2 TB of Storage for a 1 / 3 of a decent IP system.

 

If you want to go with say 16 Arecont Cameras, the price isn't only going to be in the cameras, you have to look at:

 

1) Server Hardware

2) Server Software

3) Increased ISP Costs

4) Storage Costs (try recording 16 Arecont 5 MP cameras at full resolution for 30 days)

 

All these add up.

 

Personally, I think IP is great, and it has it's place. I'm even looking at the Avigilon line of products, but........ IP has a LONG way to go to become a dominant role in this market.

 

Any decent IP camera is over a $1,200 retail, while a good day / night camera can go for $300 retail. That's just looking at the camera, not the extra costs above.

 

Anyways, everyone needs to make an informed decision and purchase something based on their NEEDS.

[user1 0]

The client may not have a PC (available) or wont want you to run your 3rd party software on their PC .. so need to provide some other form of demo

 

Agreed, but don't market it as Internet-based or remote-accessible if you can't actually show it. Kinda silly to say, 'Yea, it's Internet accessible' while walking in with a monitor to demo.

 

I actually have some analog cameras running from a Greyfox system. They look like crap, but the customer is replacing others first (not that they look like crap because they're analog, just that's what the guy from the yellow pages sold them).

 

For costs, one problem is comparing apples to apples with analog to IP. What feature can an analog camera do that an IP camera cannot do? Are the cameras accessible if the dvr is down? Can the camera perform motion detection? PoE? Cabling flexibility? How's the wireless?....they shouldn't cost the same.

 

There are certain differences, which also force different price structures. That's how the market works. There's a reason many good IP cameras are still more expensive.....people are buying them at that cost. City of Chicago bought almost 1000 Axis 233d's (ok, maybe bad example since it's government). But you can bet they looked at options, technology and future.

[CollinR 0]

The client may not have a PC (available) or wont want you to run your 3rd party software on their PC .. so need to provide some other form of demo

 

Agreed, but don't market it as Internet-based or remote-accessible if you can't actually show it. Kinda silly to say, 'Yea, it's Internet accessible' while walking in with a monitor to demo.

 

I actually have some analog cameras running from a Greyfox system. They look like crap, but the customer is replacing others first (not that they look like crap because they're analog, just that's what the guy from the yellow pages sold them).

 

For costs, one problem is comparing apples to apples with analog to IP. What feature can an analog camera do that an IP camera cannot do? Are the cameras accessible if the dvr is down? Can the camera perform motion detection? PoE? Cabling flexibility? How's the wireless?....they shouldn't cost the same.

 

There are certain differences, which also force different price structures. That's how the market works. There's a reason many good IP cameras are still more expensive.....people are buying them at that cost. City of Chicago bought almost 1000 Axis 233d's (ok, maybe bad example since it's government). But you can bet they looked at options, technology and future.

 

 

IP cams are pretty far behind, if you have done many real world comparisions you will see you must spend $1000 retail to get the performance of a quality analog $150 BW bullet at night.

 

That quote was taken from someone at Arecont one of the few companies that displays it's knowledge in in products. As I understand at this point every Arecont part# is available in a 24 hour option. The cheapest Axis thats 24 hour is the 211 at over $1000 without housing. Thats just insane for a standard resolution camera. Which would still get smoked by a panny 484.

 

What gets the IP guys in more trouble is put a 484 on an Axis streamer and see what you get. Half price and more performance and basically works like an IP camera.

 

On the megapixel front it's all IP but still many don't even work below 3 lux much less 1. Every day this number expands and when it's $150-$350 per cam I will consider it. Until then I won't push IP cams except in wide overview shots were VGA/NTSC can't cut it without a bunch of cams.

[rory 0]

The client may not have a PC (available) or wont want you to run your 3rd party software on their PC .. so need to provide some other form of demo

 

Agreed, but don't market it as Internet-based or remote-accessible if you can't actually show it. Kinda silly to say, 'Yea, it's Internet accessible' while walking in with a monitor to demo.

 

I actually have some analog cameras running from a Greyfox system. They look like crap, but the customer is replacing others first (not that they look like crap because they're analog, just that's what the guy from the yellow pages sold them).

 

For costs, one problem is comparing apples to apples with analog to IP. What feature can an analog camera do that an IP camera cannot do? Are the cameras accessible if the dvr is down? Can the camera perform motion detection? PoE? Cabling flexibility? How's the wireless?....they shouldn't cost the same.

 

There are certain differences, which also force different price structures. That's how the market works. There's a reason many good IP cameras are still more expensive.....people are buying them at that cost. City of Chicago bought almost 1000 Axis 233d's (ok, maybe bad example since it's government). But you can bet they looked at options, technology and future.

 

Hi, we just recently had a pretty indepth discussion here:

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11651&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

[normicgander 0]

Price does matter but experience and knowledge can be even more important.

 

Well said Rory.

 

Four key elements which can be applied to most occupations:

 

1. Education

-Involves the development of knowledge.

-Academic materials and subject-matter study provides the foundation to develop a more successful employee (technician).

-Makes you more competitive, flexible and adaptive to changing situations or problems in the field or place of work.

 

2. Training

-Involves repetitive activities which leads to skilled behavior or practices.

-Examples: soldering, the termination of cables, use of test equipment etc.

 

3. Experience

-Developed over a long period of time.

-Learn from the older folks .

 

4. Passion/Attitude/Mission

-In order to do anything well, you need to like and believe in what your doing.

[zmxtech 0]

IP cameras need to catch up fast, the color glossies sales put out don't match the actual performance. or its just lacking

 

-Housings how bizzare can you go....

 

-colors most are white? gimmy some black cams ! NOT WHITE !

 

-The "Artificial Price" what a Con! for $1000 you get 1mp if your lucky,

I can buy a 12mp digital camera with 12x optical for half that..?

 

I nearly made the mistake of buying an '212' IP cam yesterday fantastic spec's 3Mp woohh great -till it gets dark then it just keeps the wall warm till morning... [not good enough for $1000 ! ]

 

-would like to see some acti 1432~ IR bullet cam examples at night ?

 

Im all better now ive got coffee.....

 

z

[C7 in CA 0]

 

-The "Artificial Price" what a Con! for $1000 you get 1mp if your lucky,

I can buy a 12mp digital camera with 12x optical for half that..?

 

z

 

Yeah, but that 12mp camera isn't designed to give 15 frames a second day after day. year after year. Now you have to add a video server to do anything with the images. Which means you have spent about the same amount of money for a work around that gives overall poorer results then going with the stand alone MP IP camera in the first place.

 

I understand your frustrations. Of course MP IP cams aren't ready for an across the board replacement to analog. The features you want will no doubt be added over time as the technology matures. As professionals we should utilize the best equipment available for the job at hand. If MP IP makes sense and it's in the budget then it should be used.

 

New technology costs money. If no one bought $1000 DVD players 15 years ago we wouldn't have $100 DVD players today.

[zmxtech 0]

im talking price yes but the technology is here now, most new consumer cams will do 30fps ! at d1 or so -

 

it's not as if they need to design new stuff !

 

It was the same for camcorders years ago they out performed many security cams ...