CottyGee 0 Posted March 5, 2008 Greetings from Sunny Phoenix! I'm a homeowner and a cheap bastid on top of that. Oh - and I'm long winded. BACKGROUND Over the years, there have been various incidents of vandalism - nothing major - but I'm interested in catching the vandals. Most recently, some neighborhood teenaged twit has taken to "egging" my beater car that's parked in the driveway.... So, my main interest at this point is being able to get enough "evidence" to identify someone in my driveway at night with our "coach lights" on (two 75 watt lightbulbs to illuminate my 30'W x 20'D driveway). I'm thinking a frame rate of 7.5/sec is probably just fine for my purposes... But I'm concerned about the "crispness" and detail of recorded playback - it seems from what I've read that sometimes, a LOT is lost through compression, etc. I think I read somewhere that MJPEG would be the best compression for my type of application?? My neighbor does surveillance systems for hospitals and such, and he gave me an old camera/housing, transformer, some Siamese cable and an old time-lapse VCR and monitor - spare stuff he had laying around. I mounted the camera up about 15 feet up and 10 feet from the side of the driveway, looking down and hooked the rest of the system up, but unfortunately, the VCR is kaput - dead. I'm thinking I'd like to get a 4-camera DVR, and later on, pick up a few other cameras and run the cabling and so on. What DVR will allow me to identify someone standing maybe 20 feet from the camera, in the dark, partially illuminated (see Background)? That's all the resolution I really need, and I don't really need any fancy bells and whistles - just something with sufficient quality that when paired with the right camera, will give the desired results. Oh - and I'm thinking I want to just do a stand-alone DVR at this point, as opposed to a PC-based system. I just want something simple and straight forward. I've considered just buying a time-lapse VCR, but I like the idea of the motion activation. Oh - and I also like the like 5-second "buffer" that shows a few seconds of video before the triggering event - cool technology! Internet monitoring isn't so important, and "live" monitoring while at home isn't a big deal - just getting the person recorded is all I think I need... Eventually, I'd add maybe one interior camera and one at the back yard, and maybe a 2nd camera on the driveway from a different angle. But at this point, with one good quality camera (neighbor says it's worth $400) installed and wired, I'd like to get an idea of what I need to spend on a DVR... Is there a basic unit that's worth considering? $300 might be easy to justify to the wife. $500 will take a bit longer. $1,000 probably won't happen, given that I could do the VCR thing for a couple hundred... What say ye to this cheap bastid?? Thanks in advance, and thanks for putting up with my longwindedness! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scruit 0 Posted March 5, 2008 I'm at the budget end... of the spectrum. I've had good luck with AVTech/CPCam and with the AverMedia EB1304. They should be around 400-ish. They are not fancy, and you get what you pay for... But they work fine for the entry-level home system. Many of the professionals on this site will cringe at that recommendation - but as in my case, it's not worth the cost of a premium system to do what you are trying to do. The VCR thing is no good - you can't be changing tapes. It's bad enough on a time lapse, but a standard VCR would be even worse. As far as getting a good image - If you go with the AVTech be prepared to have the camera view close in on the subject. The comression on the newer AVTechs is good in terms of size, but the image quality suffers, even on Best quality compression. You can counter this with more thoughtful camera placement. Remember that it's easier to recognize someone you know than someon you don't know. You need a much better image quality / closer view for a 'wanted poster' type image - but you can probably recognize little timmy form 3 doors up the street with a wider view/ lower quality image. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CottyGee 0 Posted March 5, 2008 As far as getting a good image - If you go with the AVTech be prepared to have the camera view close in on the subject. The comression on the newer AVTechs is good in terms of size, but the image quality suffers, even on Best quality compression. You can counter this with more thoughtful camera placement. Well, this is part of my concern. I'm not sure I have many options with regard to camera placement. Right now, I'm capturing most of my 20 foot x 30 foot wide driveway, from about 15 feet up, aimed "down" at roughly a 45º angle (maybe a tad less). Remember that it's easier to recognize someone you know than someon you don't know. You need a much better image quality / closer view for a 'wanted poster' type image - but you can probably recognize little timmy form 3 doors up the street with a wider view/ lower quality image. Yeah - I think it likely that we would recognize whoever it is - it's likely a kid from the high school my son attends. If my son didn't recognize the kid, one of the neighbor's kids likely would. It looks to me like the AverMedia is quite a bit more expensive than the AVTech/CPCam. Knowing "you get what you pay for", but not wanting to pay for what I don't/won't need - what do I get with the AverMedia unit vs. the AVTechs? PS - love the screen name! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted March 6, 2008 Cheap is always good... but, how many days of recording do you expect to gain from these type of systems? Also, does the warranty matter in your purchase? I understand most of low end DVRs and cameras come with one year warranty, will it worth for you to pay little more for three years warranty? Embedded system will do this trick for you, no question about it... As you stated, someone gave you the camera equipment... What do you really have on hand, like make and models of these cameras?? Having good DVR does not mean anything if your cameras produce poor quality video to start off with... I probably can not match up $400.00 range for a DVR, but for $500.00 range, I can give you a package from major manufacturer and with three years warranty... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr.surveillance 0 Posted March 6, 2008 A possibility in your price range! Do an internet search for best price. G4-LTA H.264 DVR; its a 4 channel networkable pentaplex unit and if using the motion detection feature you can adjust pre-motion record from 5 to 30 seconds and post motion record from 5 seconds to 10 min. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CottyGee 0 Posted March 6, 2008 Thanks for the replies. Warranty isn't that important to me. Quality is more important than warranty! Days of recording... Well, initially, the only thing I imagined needing is yesterday. Then I thought, ure, maybe a week might be nice. (I suppose it could be a week before I noticed that a kid bashed in our coach lights (again).) I tend to notice things like the car getting egged right away! I suppose it would be nice to go on vacation and if (heaven forbid) anything happened while we were gone, it would be nice to have a record of it. So I dunno... mr.surveillance - The H.264 compression is supposed to be REALLY good stuff, right?? Like DVD quality? I looked at the MSRP, and it certainly seems like the best deal I've seen - recorded images should be VERY high quality, yes? This unit looks promising! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted March 6, 2008 Warranty isn't that important to me. Quality is more important than warranty! Will Sanyo Brand suffice? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CottyGee 0 Posted March 6, 2008 Will Sanyo Brand suffice? Brand isn't important to me either! (I've been burned on too many a product that was burning up their good name...) If you know of a Sanyo that you think beats the G4-LTA H.264 DVR that mr.surveillance suggested, I'd like to hear about it. I'm pretty impressed with what I've learned about the G4-LTA... That said, if there's something that would serve my needs better, I'm all ears! Thanks to all that have responded so far. Keep it comin'! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr.surveillance 0 Posted March 6, 2008 Here is a link to the LTA manual : http://www.cctvdealers.com/customer/intsys/support/LTA%20User%20Manual.pdf The G4-LTA seems to have the most bang for the buck of what is currently out there, and plenty of bells and whistles too. The record time varies to the Hard Drive size and the speed and quality you setup to record. If you are using motion detection mode and do not have a lot of activity a smaller Hard Drive should suffice. For small business I usually prefer the ARGUS JPEG2000 machines. The Police Departments seem to like the evidence CDs the units make however the internet speed sucks if you try to play back from a remote location. (These are larger and more expensive) I dont think this is what you want for residential use. The LTA has good internet speed, (depending on your internet provider), so if you go on vacation you can view live or play back via the internet. Sanyo makes good products too! I hope this information is helpful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CottyGee 0 Posted March 6, 2008 Yes it absolutely IS helpful! My only experience with DVRs is using them to record TV, and knowing from that experience that they represent a QUANTUM LEAP in usefulness... I can only assume the "leap" is of similar magnatude with surveillance DVRs as it is with DVRs for television. What I am missing tho is real world experience. That is, with the right camera, will the LTA provide sufficient recorded playback to allow facial recognition of a known individual in my situation? My "situation" is two 75-watt "coach lights" shining onto my driveway, and incidents happening in the dark of night. Driveway is about 20'X30' wide, with the camera shooting from about 15 feet away from the edge of the driveway. I only really need to hit somewhere around the middle of the driveway I think. Obviously, nobody can promise anything about what my real world results will be. But an educated guess puts me leaps and bounds ahead of where I'm at now - which is more or less a blind stab in the dark! So, what say ye? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted March 7, 2008 Before you can focus on the type of DVR, my suggestion was to share what type of camera equipment you really have. It is a mute point to ask the DVR to provide certain functionality if video quality coming from your cameras may be substandard... You remember GIGO effect right? I am not familiar with the product that mr. surveillance is referring and chances are good that it is a decent product. But if you cameras do not provide the minimum and decent quality picture, then it really does not matter which DVR you use... the end result will not be satisfactory... Seems to me that only price is the driving force on your selection of DVR. If so, then why not look at what members offer from GEO or similar company solutions? As long as you have a decent computer, these guys can guide you to purchase something fairly cheap and yet works well... and there is a tremendous amount of support for GEO and other similar company products in this forum... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CottyGee 0 Posted March 7, 2008 Before you can focus on the type of DVR, my suggestion was to share what type of camera equipment you really have. That's a valid point. I get it - the whole "weakest link" thing... I've gotta get back up there and tweak the focus on the camera - it looks nice and sharp during the day but at night when the iris opens, it's blurry as hell! So I'll see what I can find for markings... I *DO* know it's a variable focal length auto-iris camera that came out of a professional install. I'm not all that concerned about cameras, since I've only got the one, which didn't cost me anything. If I'm not happy with its performance, I'll replace it and use it somewhere else. I'm actually thinking that I'll prolly eventually put the existing camera inside the house, and put a day/night IR camera in its place... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CottyGee 0 Posted March 8, 2008 Camera's a PELCO. The only markings I could find were: ICS-2CRV4A Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daryl733 0 Posted March 8, 2008 Camera's a PELCO. The only markings I could find were: ICS-2CRV4A Sometimes you may want to set your expectation right as well. Watching too much of CSI, 24, Las Vegas, etc Serials may set false expectation to what you can get out of CCTV System, e.g. unlimited zooming in and enhancement to the recorded CCTV images. From just a 25 pixels captured of the face, you are able to blow it up to see a perfectly clear image of the person, all CCTV video recording looks like what you get out of your DVD movie video, or better still, your High Defination Recording.... Certain things, are possible, but just not feasible, e.g. Some system allows you to record all cameras up to live (25/30fps per cam) at D1 quality. Even with Mpeg4/H.264 or watever compression, it'll still be consuming a large amount of harddisk space for recording. Yes, harddisk are cheap, but adding it up, will it be cheap enough to keep 6 months recording ? At 786kbps per camera for a 4 cameras system, you'll run through a 500GB harddisk in abt 2 days. So 6 months, you'll need abt 90 pcs of 500GB harddisk, abt 45 Terabyte of space. At vcd quality of 144kbps, you'll need a fifth of the space, at 9 Terabyte, i.e. 18 pcs of 500GB harddisk. So sometimes, really have to point these out to customers.... possiblities vs feasibility. My motto... anything is possible... what's your budget ? You may want to post some capture or backup from what you had recorded, and maybe some of us here can comment if that's a ok quality capture, or is really a bad one. Camera wise..... some of the cheap mini camera in dome, ir outdoor housing does give quite a good images (as i call them value for money) as well. You may want to consider them instead of using auto iris camera. With build in electronic shutter, they work both in day and nite situation. Prices are like ard $40-$50. It may be the problem with your lens as well. Some cheap lens does not work well during day and night. The focal lenght's different during day and nite time and that's causing the blurrness at night. You might need to change to aspherical lens. This was highlighted to me vie fujinon salesperson. Just remembered. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CottyGee 0 Posted March 8, 2008 I adjusted the focus last night, in the dark. Picture is MUCH better. I think I've probably got the video quality I need, even with VHS playback, tho a bit more detail would obviously be better! So far, I'm most intrigued by the G4-LTA mr.surveillance suggested. Sure would like some feedback on that unit tho! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gesualdo 0 Posted March 11, 2008 (edited) Daryl733 you quote a dvr that can record D1 on all channels at the same time but it's not practical. can you give me some honest examples of an 8 channel DVR that can do this with very good picture quality at 30 frames per channel, disregarding memory storage requirements for now - will add it myself, and at a reasonable price? I'm looking to seriously upgrade. Currently have EX82, EX40, and Pano 484 cameras Gesualdo Edited March 11, 2008 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daryl733 0 Posted March 11, 2008 Daryl733 you quote a dvr that can record D1 on all channels at the same time but it's not practical. can you give me some honest examples of an 8 channel DVR that can do this with very good picture quality, disregarding memory storage requirements for now and at a reasonable price? I'm looking to seriously upgrade. Currently have EX82, EX40, and Pano 484 cameras Gesualdo Can't quote price here. Against forum guideline. PM or email me. But then again, I am in Singapore. You may want to buy from your local vendor so that you'll have local support. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gesualdo 0 Posted March 11, 2008 THanks Don't need a specific price but model(s) to consider would work. PM'ed you. Anyone and everyone else can join in with recommendation too. Gesualdo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gesualdo 0 Posted March 12, 2008 OoooKay then! How about some thing completely unreasonable then.... Something that will give D1 at high res at better than 7.5 frame rate? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kensplace 0 Posted March 13, 2008 One thing to remember with compression, be it h.264 or mpeg whatever, is it can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, product to product how good the final image quality is. There are many settings they can tweak when they set up the compression, just having h.264 is not going to be a definitive guarantee of dvd quality. H.264 can vary greatly in quality depending on just how much compression is used. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gesualdo 0 Posted March 13, 2008 Can you explain how that works and how to check it and set it. I was looking at the ICRealtime Pro 8 but can not find pricing and am told the flex also can be upgraded. I am learning more all the time. Gesualdo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daryl733 0 Posted March 13, 2008 OoooKay then! How about some thing completely unreasonable then.... Something that will give D1 at high res at better than 7.5 frame rate? Well... you can check out Kodicom DVR. KSR-816, http://new.kodicom.com/Products/Eng/Prod_KSR816.asp Cheaper one.. you may consider AVTech AVC787 or CPCAM - 507 http://www.lakson.com.sg/brochure/CPCam/CPD-507.pdf You made no mention of any network requirement,searching methods, etc... so basically both can record at D1 quality at the framerate you want. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CottyGee 0 Posted March 13, 2008 One thing to remember with compression, be it h.264 or mpeg whatever, is it can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, product to product how good the final image quality is. There are many settings they can tweak when they set up the compression, just having h.264 is not going to be a definitive guarantee of dvd quality. H.264 can vary greatly in quality depending on just how much compression is used. That is exactly my concern. The Intelicam G4-LTA looks good to me just reading the marketing info, and the price is within my budget. But I've hesitated to buy because of exactly what you said above, kensplace... They've got 3 video clips that they claim to be "worst case" quality. If I trust those videos to in fact BE worst case, then I think I'm okay with the unit... (Sorry - it won't let me post those sites as links for another 3 days. ) But they're at intellicamusa dot com... www(dot)intellicamusa(dot)com/video/ptz.wmv www(dot)intellicamusa(dot)com/video/indoor.wmv www(dot)intellicamusa(dot)com/video/IR.wmv Any opinions? How does this quality compare with the lower-end residential 4-channel systems using the MPEG4 compression technology like the AVTech/CPCam or AverMedia? Oh - and who exactly IS "Intellicam"? Are they the manufacturer? Or is this a generic Chinese unit they've slapped their label on? Oh - one more! They really tout the Texas Instruments DaVinci Technology DSP chip. Is this chip really all that they make it out to be? Seems reasonable to me that hardware based compression would be superior or more efficient or cheaper (or all three) than perhaps other compression methods... Help! Thanks in advance. Hope I haven't violated any rules... Just tryin' to get info... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr.surveillance 0 Posted March 13, 2008 I've only sold one G4 LTA and the customer was very happy with it. They remotely view when they vacation in Mexico. For the budget you stated this should give you the most bang for the buck. In my store I use a JPEG 2000 machine, however the remote playback speed sucks. If you wanted to increase your budget take a look at the dual codec machines, (JPEG 2000 with H.264 over internet) made by ARGUS and is sold by one of the advertisers in the banner at the top of the CCTV forum page. They named the recorders after a former penitentiary located in the SF bay. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CottyGee 0 Posted March 13, 2008 I've only sold one G4 LTA and the customer was very happy with it. They remotely view when they vacation in Mexico. For the budget you stated this should give you the most bang for the buck. In my store I use a JPEG 2000 machine, however the remote playback speed sucks. If you wanted to increase your budget take a look at the dual codec machines, (JPEG 2000 with H.264 over internet) made by ARGUS and is sold by one of the advertisers in the banner at the top of the CCTV forum page. They named the recorders after a former penitentiary located in the SF bay. Thx, Mr.S. Did you look at any of the videos I mentioned, or is that just marketing bologna not worth considering? For what it's worth, I'm not imagining much in the way of remote playback. Would a JPEG 2000 provide better pic quality than H.264 for the same $$$? What I'm asking is, would a JPEG 2000 machine provide more resolution as evidence for playback to police, etc. than a H.264? Or is that a dumb question? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
