correct cameras for college bar?

[sf1964 0]

l have been reading most of the threads and various recommendations l just want to make sure before i buy.l have a college bar where id checking at the door is imperative, currently have a o.ooo3 lux model kg 190 ex exview hi per ccd, wacthing people enter the door and having there id checked.I am going to change to a speco6805 ex day night bullet w/4-9mm varifocal lens,reason being because we have various light sources ie tvs around bar,neon lights and door opening and closing showing our outside lights.I also want to be able to have details of faces and colours and of course a crisp picture.Secondly l was rcommended the panasonic cp-474 super d2 as the pan 974 is around twice as much $800 and he thougt this model would do the job fine. I want to put 8 cameras total with hi res recording to last me for a week,so l am upgrading my standalone linux samsung dvr 4cam input w/remote access to abigger one (any suggestions ie kalatel seems to be the choice of the pros or even the new one nadatel that is coming out).l would also like a cd-r or dvd burner for quick archiving for police evidence.

 

l would appreciate any input about the cameras and dvr or even a better solution.

[rory 0]

Hi

 

I have done a couple bar and night club jobs so Ill give you some info on what I currently use there, will be switching out to, and have had the chance to test there also, as the client at the night club is a friend of mine so he let me have open market on hooking up cameras to test as I got them.

 

To start with, as far as the 6805 goes, nice bullet camera, though according to Speco it is an Exview Camera, does not switch to BW. It is great for low light apps, but I will explain why Exview does not work well in bars/night clubs, normally. The only Speco Bullets that do Color switch to BW (TRUE DAY NIGHT) in low light are: (Note the price difference between the EX versions and the DN/V versions)

 

CVC-7706DNV: This comes with an IR cut Filter also which means it is their best Bullet Camera as you will get exceptional color images.

http://##########

 

CVC-7700DN & CVC-7705DNV

http://##########

 

Exview:

I tested several high end brands of Exview, and even one of Speco's Exview Domes, in the Night club, in various locations, but in the end, none of them will perform like a B/W camera, even a simple B/W Bullet camera. They all give up some sought of pixelisation, under the dim lighting. We had neon lighting, as well as other dim florescents, etc. Basically every type of light you will find in a nightclub/bar situation.

 

Exview Cameras Tested:

1) GE Exview Traditional Camera, High End Lens

2) Phillips Exview Tradiotional Camera, High End Lens

3) Speco Exview Dome Varifocal lens Built in Auto Iris

 

all of the above experienced Pixelisation

 

Other Color Cameras Tested:

1) Extreme CCTV EX44 LRX Dome (low light extreme backlighting - their idea of wide dynamic )

2) Extreme CCTV LRX Traditional Camera - one of their best low light extreme lighting cameras - worked, but like Exview, had isues with image quality.

3) Extreme CCTV EX82 Dual Day Night Camera 84IR LEDs - Too much LEDS!! Great for outdoors but not a bar/night club -

4) Hunt Vandal Resistant Color Dome Varifocal lens Auto Iris .9 Lux - did not work at all in low light (Image was Pitch Dark where a B/W Bullet sees everything), ended up using it in a well lit entrance way - nice camera though for that.

 

Original Speco CVC-325WPS Bullet Cameras installed, in the end, performed better than any of the above color cameras. The client wanted best quality (Crisp) image available, to see bartenders, cashier, etc. Ofcourse those are only 420TVL , but they work well and have for over 3 years. They have Infrared LEDs but that part is useless for this type of application.

 

What Client Wants:

Car park area has tons of lighting, and color of cars, clothing, etc is essential so Exview Cameras work great there, GE Traditional Exview Cameras are installed, other brands will work also such as Phillips.

 

Entrance has tons of light and so we used Vandal Resistant Weatherproof Dome there, Color 0.9 Lux, in other words the Dome needs alot of light, and main point of that camera, is when the customers are lined up to enter the club.

 

Other entrance part, where they ticket/pay to get in, has minimal light, only BW cameras will perform there. Bar Areas, Dance Floor, Same thing.

 

My next move is to upgrade all the BW Bullets, to 570TVL WizKid Vandal PROOF Domes, these are not high priced, but are undestructable, virtually. I have a color version at my appartment, and since it is a high risk area, the domes will be a better choice in the long run.

 

Client is interested in wide dynamic also, in a couple areas, Front Entrance, the ticket/cash area, so Panasonic Day/Night Wide Dynamic Vandal Resistant Domes are going there. Regardless of if there is enough light or not, we will have BW in low light. HE may ADD additional Light, to keep it in color mode, or just have switchable light there for certain high risk nights, such as Weekends. Day/Night Panasonic Wide Dynamic Traditional Cameras will also be added for the car park gate entrances of which there are 2, and they will have narrow varifocal lenses such as 5-50 mm, to get a good image of every car and person (on foot) entering the premises, as some never get in line and just start trouble...

 

Additional GE Exview Traditional Cameras may be added in one or 2 other car park locations, or maybe the Panasonic Day Night WD as it is lower priced then the GE Day/Night.

 

A couple of the existing Speco B/W Bullets will stay where they are, or be moved, in low risk areas such as the office door, garbage area, etc.

 

One or 2 PTZs may also be implemented, High Res B/W in bar location, and perhaps a day night in the dance floor area, means when the lights are on full, or there are Special Nights like Mardi Gras etc, where the stand has lights on it in full, then it will be in color, and switch to BW only when those full lights are off - this will be usefull for the online show, during Spring Break for example )

 

Either way, the B/W Bullets have done well over the years, but we are primarily upgrading for higher resolution, and more vandal resistance.

 

As for a bar situation, same thing goes, I installed some Bullet Cameras, .5 lux Color Bullet, only sees at the cashier where light is, in the bar area, where lighting is dim, there is a Low Light VF Bullet, but it is pixelised. This app the client bought there own product initially and I was just asked to install. Ofcourse I advised but that has so far fallen on deaf ears!

 

To End:

Choice is up to you, but if you want the BEST image, a Traditional (Box - Pro) camera will do the best, or Domes for Vandal Resistant with AI and VF lens. Bullets WILL work, but I would not spend the money on the Exview in a situation like this, I would just go for a B/W.

 

IF they have the money, sell them some of the Panasonic Vandal Resistant Day Night Wide Dynamic Domes, that would give them the best overall image no matter what lighting situation, and will present them with vandal protection. If quality is an issue, do not use Exview only, make sure it is B/W or at least switches to BW. Exview has its applications, but a night club/bar indoors is GENERALLY not one of them, except for areas that have some sought of NORMAL lighting such as a car park.

 

Some bars though, differ in the amount of lighting they use.

 

as for the DVR, I will get to that in a little while ..

 

Rory

Edited March 13, 2007 by Guest

[rory 0]

As for DVR, I lean towards the Kalatel DVR, but price is high so it depends on the clients needs.

 

Do they need Remote Video (Internet)

Do they need Remote Video Playback (of recorded events)

Do they need Multi Site Remote Software (Conned to multiple DVRs at once viewing all/some of the cameras in one multiple screen)

 

That pretty much answers my questions to my clients, as I only sell the cheap one with no LAN, the cheap one with LAN (dont recommend playbacl remote as tends to crash DVR), or the expensive Kalatel ones which have all the remote features, as well as the multi site for every LAN DVR they sell.

I also can write custom software for the Kalatel DVRs, and they are very very stable compared to Linux DVRs or Windows DVRs when clients put MSN Instant Mess on them or browse the web, and just kill the PC!

 

Other than stablity which has its doubts among PC users on this forum, there are other main reasons I use it, which is, plug, play, and forget about it! It may be a computer / computerised machine, but it certainly acts like a machine foremost.

 

There are also other Stand alones that use great RTOS but I wont get into them in this thread/forum. The cheap ones I use are basically the HiSharp. If they only care about Live Remote View then I sell them the Hisharp, unless the client wants a higher end unit and more stability. I have crashed several Linux based DVRs, pretty much eveytime I try to play back video remotely.

 

Anyway, as for Kalatel, StoreSafe PRO is the same price as the 30pps StoreSafe normal (old one) so get the PRO if you only want CDRW. If you want DVD then the DVMRE Pro will do that, but it is much more pricey. The DVMRE-CT has neither, but is better for rack mounting, or more discreet/neat looking as it is a slim unit, it has 60pps High Res. The StoreSafe Pro isalso 60pps High Res, the DVMRe Pro is 120pps High Res but has some limitations in that speed mode.

 

With motion detection recording:

 

Notes about Recording Speeds : (PPS)

 

The faster the PPS (pps = pictures per second), the faster the recorded video play back is. 30pps is considered Real Time video to the human eye.

 

The DVR will take the total amount of PPS, and divide it between the total amount of connected cameras. When using Motion Detection only recording, it will take the total amount of connected cameras that are picking up motion at that time, and divide the total PPS by that amount ; that is the speed you will view the recorded video at. 10-20pps is near Real Time, 5pps is a generally sufficient speed for CCTV, while Old School Time Lapse VCRs use to be recording at as low as less than 1PPS.

 

If the DVR has 60PPS total, and 2 cameras are picking up motion when recorded, you will view real time video. Motion Detection recording is suggested for longer recording time span. Optionally the DVR can be set to record in time lapse mode (all the time in slower PPS) and then speed up recording on motion. It changes according to which cameras are picking up motion at the time, which ones stop motion, and there is normally a slight delay between the time it stops recording from one camera and distributes the remaining PPS to the others recording.

 

I get 2 months on a 8-5 office application with 3 cameras on a StoreSafe 40GB 30pps DVR, just for an example - times will vary with the amount of traffic. With the night club, 320GB DVR, with 20pps time lapse recording, 13 cameras, I get 9 days - that is non motion detection recording. 16 cameras with time lapse on a 40GB i get maybe 1 Day! 8 cameras on a 320GB, time lapse recording, with 5pps setting, I get 28 days.

 

As a last example, one office application I have 4 cameras, 40GB, StoreSafe 30pps, 1 Month.

 

Rory

Edited December 2, 2004 by Guest

[sf1964 0]

thanks for the advice.The vandalism aspect is not a concern as the bar is only 1100ft and we can easily monitor the crowd,so the domes wouldnt have to be nessersary if we could use something else alsothat would be fine so basically i am looking for clear crisp pictures in dim light with various sources of backlight, the repsaid the speco6805 WAS a day/nite camera actually from spytown l got this info(maybe l misunderstood).

if l gave you the i.p adress of the bar you could maybe see the bar and get an idea .the software l use is called remote view it came with my samsung dvr.That way you could definately recommend based on your experience.Thanks

[rory 0]

Yes PM me the IP and maybe a link to download the software?

Remember those reps, just like my distributors I use, sell soo many products they dont always know exactly what is up, the info I got was direct from Speco's tech support, but I have not personally used it myself so its hard to say. I have to lean towards Speco Tech Support though, I can email them again if you want, to double check, or if you want his email I can PM you it? (im tired from a long day of alarm installation and have 4 CCTV quotes and 1 large alarm quote to spec for a contractor .. :-0

 

Rory

[sf1964 0]

l like to check in and watch the bar from home and l also search and check previous days recordings from home so these are the two main things l look for,however the quality seems to diminish when l try to save video to say media player at my computer at home as opposed to video quality at sight,(not that great)hence the better cameras and dvr.

[rory 0]

You will never get the high quality that you get on sight, from recorded video over the network. You may be able to get ahigher quality using a Video Printer connected direct to the mux/dvr.

 

Only other way may be a megapixel IP camera with IP CCTV software. ($$$)

 

Rory

[sf1964 0]

so based on your recomendations and experience, you would go for thepanasonic day/nite w.dy.vandal dome cameras with auto iris and var.focal lenses as long as it switches to b/w and possibly the exview bullet 6805 day/night as long as it switches to b/w (to be confirmed)

you think l cant go wrong with these two models? How much they go for ?

[rory 0]

Yes, well it depends, is the color worth it, will there ever be enough light to go into color mode? If you need Wide Dynamic and BW then the Pano is the one. For the Bullet, if there is really never any color time, then a BW is all you need. However it is hard to find high res BW bullets which is why I generally go High Res Dome BW.

 

The nightclub I used as an example, never has anyone but staff durung the day hours, so the client does not care about color in the day, at least not at the bar areas and dance floor. The indoor bars are dim 24/7 so they will never use Color at all. So it really depends on the client (yourself?) 's requests, and the location's lighting.

 

Rory

[sf1964 0]

l would like colour at the front door for id purposes ,but ther is ambient light from atm,tv above the door to the left etc.everywhere else b/w is fine

[sf1964 0]

by the way the software is made by a company called onix for the rmote viewer software ver 2.3

[sf1964 0]

here is the link rory regarding the camera switching to black and white.If it does switch is the resolution god enough for my needs?

 

http://www.spytown.com/provcvc6805.html