should I use IP cameras?

[jhonovich 0]

Note: I recently released a new article on top 5 disadvantages of IP Cameras: http://ipvideomarket.info/review/show/156 This might be interesting for further discussion.

 

 

 

I have been getting more questions these days about using IP cameras. More than just a technical issue anymore, it seems to be an emotional issue. The perception seems to have gone negative on analog cameras (kind of like VCRs began to be perceived in the last few years).

 

I put together a paper to help look more carefully about when and where it makes sense: Advantage and Disadvantages of Using IP Cameras?

 

Here are the key points I see

 

• The larger the facility being secured, the more valuable an immediate transition to IP cameras.

• The more mature megapixel cameras become, the more valuable an immediate transition to IP cameras.

• DVRs will continue to catch up to NVRs and will as such extend the life of analog systems.

 

 

What are you guys seeing? I noticed a lot of you are recommending megapixel cameras when people ask questions. Are you mostly using IP or megapixel cameras? Please share.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Guest

[CollinR 0]

I still advise analog for bang:buck factor unless megapixel is in order or required. Sometimes indoor applications with good lighting IP that don't want recording can be done on a reasonable cost but for the most part it's bang:buck is pretty bad.

 

However I do promote Cat5 and baluns homerun to allow for a transition to IP without a big rewiring cost. IP is coming I have no doubt, it's just right now I think it's in it's terrible twos rather then matured products.

 

Since I put all the IP cameras on a dedicated network the big gain of using existing cabling is often lost. It is my understanding that this will be mandated in OK in the next few years along with a variety of other things I already do but marketing hype

 

To overcome the IP ignorance I just do head to head comparisons with pricing and let the customer choose. There are just too few outdoor true day/night IP based cameras. So to get one you'll need to spend x2 to x5 the $ compared to an analog equal.

 

Then I show them how a quality DVR can provide the same functionality in addition to a consolidated access control. In both cases only the DVR can connect directly to a camera.

[si_kungs 0]

bang:buck factor

sir what is the meaning of this?

[thewireguys 3]

This is going to be a good one. Great topic jhonovich

 

I always recommend IP cameras for every customer I have. Sorry I don't agree with the "bang:buck factor". It is all about image quality for me and my potential customers. I have been a installer in the audio, video and security industry for over 10 years and I have yet to see any analog cctv at any price point that has a better picture then a IP camera. If you know of one please let me have the model number so I can order it and do a image to image comparison.

 

I also do a head to head comparison with three cameras. One Megapixel, IP camera, and analog cameras with a video server. I tell them the prices so they have realistic expiations with the system and IP has won every time.

 

Here is a great example. I just bid and won a job that is over 6 hours away so I was not installing the system. The customer had quotes from other companies that where cheaper with more cameras and included installation!!! The first time I talked to the customer I asked them if they had seen any images from any of the other systems. He said yes so I asked him if he ever seen images from a AXIS camera and of course he said no. When he logged into one of my cameras and was blown away with the image quality. Keep in mind my quote was $4000 more without installation.

 

Try this with a analog system:

 

I assigned IP address and ports to the cameras before I shipped them. The customer had someone install the cameras and install the software on their server. At this point I logged in the the cameras and NVR software and set the whole system up in under a hour from my office. They are very happy with the system and they are going to order more cameras soon.

 

I have a lot more to say but my head hurts.

[jhonovich 0]

That's 2 really interesting stories.

 

I am a little surprised that the customer paid $4000 more. I assume this is a small or medium size job so for that's not a trivial amount.

 

What I do not understand is what is the actual benefit of the better resolution? You can get 4CIF from analog cameras and a mid-tier DVR. That's not as good as Axis but reasonably close. How does the customer earn back the $4,000 from better video quality?

 

 

As for pre-configuring the IP cameras and NVR software, could you not do similar with analog cameras and a DVR. Set the DVR to DHCP, connect remotely and do the same configurations. Plus, you eliminate configuration for the camera.

 

Are you suggesting that eliminating the coax cabling was part of the benefit?

 

 

These are good points you are making and I am interested in learning more.

 

Best,

John

[thewireguys 3]

That's 2 really interesting stories.

 

I am a little surprised that the customer paid $4000 more. I assume this is a small or medium size job so for that's not a trivial amount.

 

What I do not understand is what is the actual benefit of the better resolution? You can get 4CIF from analog cameras and a mid-tier DVR. That's not as good as Axis but reasonably close. How does the customer earn back the $4,000 from better video quality?

 

 

As for pre-configuring the IP cameras and NVR software, could you not do similar with analog cameras and a DVR. Set the DVR to DHCP, connect remotely and do the same configurations. Plus, you eliminate configuration for the camera.

 

Are you suggesting that eliminating the coax cabling was part of the benefit?

 

 

These are good points you are making and I am interested in learning more.

 

Best,

John

 

How do you log into the cameras on a analog system to adjust white balance, color balance, brightness, contrast, and exposure?

 

Have the camera send emails on motion detection?

 

The system included:

 

3 Axis 211

 

2 Axis 211a

 

1 Axis 213PTZ

 

6 Axis Camera Station licenses

 

All in Videolarm housings.

 

With a analog system what happens when you have a 8 channel dvr full and the customer wants to add 2 more cameras?

Edited May 15, 2008 by Guest

[jhonovich 0]

Many DVRs allow you to adjust color balance, brightness, contrast, etc of analog cameras. Essentially they are adjusting their built in encoders.

 

That being said, I agree that IP cameras offer a greater range of settings to adjust.

 

 

The other question I have is even with IP cameras remote setting capability, you really still need someone on site to determine positioning, placement, lens adjustment, etc.

[ak357 0]

What I do not understand is what is the actual benefit of the better resolution?

 

I hope you are joking by asking this

 

I thought we are selling CCTV for one reason only

to get good image with as high resolution as possible

but here very often we talk about "lots of hard drive space" or being too much money which is absolutely irrelevant

Those decisions belong to customers not me

Our job to present choices their job to decide which one to take

That why I agree with "thewireguys"

 

Have a look at the pix posted on this forum and tell me what do you see

when person or object is about 20-30 feet away or more

u see "lots of nothing"

[jhonovich 0]

I thought we are selling CCTV for one reason only

to get good image with as high resolution as possible ...

Our job to present choices their job to decide which one to take

 

I believe we are selling CCTV to provide an ROI to our customer. Delivering such an ROI requires us to understand the full spectrum of needs and costs of our customers.

 

Certainly, the customer decides but I need to determine which choices have the greatest potential of providing a business benefit. If I simply choose video quality, I may designing a gold plated system that the customer cannot afford. I may also lose the business to a competitor that better appreciates the full breadth of my customer's issues.

 

Specifically, on the video quality part, I am being serious. Unlike for consumers, most security managers are not concerned about how 'nice' the video looks. To the extent that video quality reduces losses or camera count, video quality is valuable. Otherwise, most security managers, in my experience, will view it as a waste of money.

[thewireguys 3]

Many DVRs allow you to adjust color balance, brightness, contrast, etc of analog cameras. Essentially they are adjusting their built in encoders.

 

That being said, I agree that IP cameras offer a greater range of settings to adjust.

 

 

The other question I have is even with IP cameras remote setting capability, you really still need someone on site to determine positioning, placement, lens adjustment, etc.

 

You are correct I can't do anything with the positioning, placement, lens adjustment. But I was very easy for them to install they knew how to run and terminate cat5. They didn't have to buy and special tools and connectors. They didn't have any ground loops. They didn't have to run extra cable for the PTZ.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Guest

[jhonovich 0]

They didn't have to buy and special tools and connectors. They didn't have any ground loops. They didn't have to run extra cable for the PTZ.

 

Agreed. But as you said, your system was $4,000 more without installation. You could buy tools, connectors, extra cabling and labor for any potential ground loops for a fraction of $4,000. Also, if you had a CCTV tech on site, he would have the tools readily and could have done this job in a day, less than a day?

 

Please don't get me wrong. I agree with you that there are benefits. I am just not sure if they outweigh the costs for many applications.

[thewireguys 3]

I thought we are selling CCTV for one reason only

to get good image with as high resolution as possible ...

Our job to present choices their job to decide which one to take

 

I believe we are selling CCTV to provide an ROI to our customer. Delivering such an ROI requires us to understand the full spectrum of needs and costs of our customers.

 

Certainly, the customer decides but I need to determine which choices have the greatest potential of providing a business benefit. If I simply choose video quality, I may designing a gold plated system that the customer cannot afford. I may also lose the business to a competitor that better appreciates the full breadth of my customer's issues.

 

Specifically, on the video quality part, I am being serious. Unlike for consumers, most security managers are not concerned about how 'nice' the video looks. To the extent that video quality reduces losses or camera count, video quality is valuable. Otherwise, most security managers, in my experience, will view it as a waste of money.

 

I don't agree with any of this. What does gold plating have to do with video quality?

[jhonovich 0]

I don't agree with any of this. What does gold plating have to do with video quality?

 

Gold plating means to use advanced technology that does not provide a commensurable business benefit. In other words, to use new technology because it's new and 'better', not because it offers clear financial benefits.

 

Let's say I propose 3 megapixel cameras instead of analog ones. That doubles the price of the camera and potentially triples or quadruples the cost of storage. The total cost of the proposal may increase 50% or more.

 

Increasing costs to improve video quality without generating a business benefit is by definition gold plating.

 

Perhaps you believe you are generating a business benefit which is fine but please explain so I can understand better.

[thewireguys 3]

They didn't have to buy and special tools and connectors. They didn't have any ground loops. They didn't have to run extra cable for the PTZ.

 

Agreed. But as you said, your system was $4,000 more without installation. You could buy tools, connectors, extra cabling and labor for any potential ground loops for a fraction of $4,000. Also, if you had a CCTV tech on site, he would have the tools readily and could have done this job in a day, less than a day?

 

Please don't get me wrong. I agree with you that there are benefits. I am just not sure if they outweigh the costs for many applications.

 

But I didn't have a tech on site and I won the job from companies that did. I think that speaks for it self. You get more for your money with IP cameras. Now this company can have there costumers log into the PTZ camera and look at parts. They are also linking one of the cameras to there website. Stuff you can't do with analog cameras.

[thewireguys 3]

I don't agree with any of this. What does gold plating have to do with video quality?

 

Gold plating means to use advanced technology that does not provide a commensurable business benefit. In other words, to use new technology because it's new and 'better', not because it offers clear financial benefits.

 

Let's say I propose 3 megapixel cameras instead of analog ones. That doubles the price of the camera and potentially triples or quadruples the cost of storage. The total cost of the proposal may increase 50% or more.

 

Increasing costs to improve video quality without generating a business benefit is by definition gold plating.

 

Perhaps you believe you are generating a business benefit which is fine but please explain so I can understand better.

 

Better video quality is the benefit. Give me a model number of a analog camera any price and lets go head to head with a AXIS camera.

 

Lets make this fair. Those 3 megapixel cameras are going to replace 12 analog cameras where is the price saving now?

[thewireguys 3]

Many DVRs allow you to adjust color balance, brightness, contrast, etc of analog cameras. Essentially they are adjusting their built in encoders.

 

So you aren't making any adjustments in the camera then.

[thewireguys 3]

We are not comparing Ford to Ferrari. Both cars will get you from point A to point B. One camera system will identify the person who shoot your employee in the head and one system will not.

[rory 0]

I do alot of low light and pitch dark installs, yet to see an IP camera (that wont cost alot more) that matches up with a CCTV camera in those applications. And yes we are typically able to identify the suspects face in most of the situations.

[rory 0]

Try this with a analog system:

 

I assigned IP address and ports to the cameras before I shipped them. The customer had someone install the cameras and install the software on their server. At this point I logged in the the cameras and NVR software and set the whole system up in under a hour from my office.

 

Yes, been able to do that for years now with DVR systems.

In fact you can do that with a $200 DVR.

[rory 0]

 

Have a look at the pix posted on this forum and tell me what do you see

when person or object is about 20-30 feet away or more

u see "lots of nothing"

 

That depends on the camera you use and how it is setup. Once done properly you should be able to see a whole lot of something. Beyond 50-75 feet it can get pretty bad though, but then again, a color IP camera wont see anything at night either.

[thewireguys 3]

Try this with a analog system:

 

I assigned IP address and ports to the cameras before I shipped them. The customer had someone install the cameras and install the software on their server. At this point I logged in the the cameras and NVR software and set the whole system up in under a hour from my office.

 

Yes, been able to do that for years now with DVR systems.

In fact you can do that with a $200 DVR.

 

So you can log in to the cameras with out the DVR?

[rory 0]

Lets make this fair. Those 3 megapixel cameras are going to replace 12 analog cameras where is the price saving now?

 

the whole replacing cameras point is mute, as a camera cannot see behind an object or around a wall. It really depends on the app.

[rory 0]

 

So you can log in to the cameras with out the DVR?

 

Can you logon to the IP camera without the built in Web server?

[thewireguys 3]

I do alot of low light and pitch dark installs, yet to see an IP camera (that wont cost alot more) that matches up with a CCTV camera in those applications. And yes we are typically able to identify the suspects face in most of the situations.

 

Forget about price we are talking image quality.

[rory 0]

 

Forget about price we are talking image quality.

 

Question, how many CCTV jobs, non IP camera jobs, have you done before? Its a relative question as you are suggesting that you cannot get a quality image from a Non IP camera, which is incorrect and anyone that has installed high quality CCTV Professional systems, would know that.