Gas Tank Control

[3RDIGLBL 0]

I have a project in the works where the customer currently has a number of cameras installed by us. He now wants an access control system so we are putting together the list of equipment required.

 

Here is one that is new to me but it is possible and I think I know the answer. He has a large fuel tank with no current access control on it. Anyone can go by at anytime and fill up on Diesel fuel and he will have no knowledge of it. Cameras have not been installed at this spot yet because of his request to wait until a new structure is built there, couple weeks now until completion.

 

Anyhow. To operate the pump one just has to simply flip a light switch type switch. I need to put a proximity reader in here so the drivers can pass there fobs over it and start the pump. So the way I see it is using a low voltage activated relay to pass the 120VAC to start the pump. I need this relay to hold there until the off button is pushed so I plan to put a big red stop button there on the panel for the operator to deactivate the pump.

 

Anyone know where to look for relays I would need for this? I can find them and figure out how to wire it all up but maybe someone has experience here with a simpler approach.

 

Thanks

[thewireguys 3]

You can use the button but can call also setup a timer. Figure out how long it should take to fill up the tank and add 10mins so if they don't hit the button the pump will shut off.

 

Is there special type of relay you need to use around gas?

 

 

You could do something really slick with a Isonas reader and Axis ip camera.

Anytime someone swipes the Axis camera could email him a couple of images to his cell phone.

 

just an idea

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Very cool what can be done I've been reading a lot into that. I could have our current DVR do the same by triggering an event through a sensor tied to the access control and having it record an email the owner. Don't think he cares about all this he only cares about being able to review when and who has been taking gas.

 

As far as the special type of relay, I will be installing a secure box on the structure surrounding the pump so it will not be directly near the tank and pump itself. There will not be a problem with the relay where spark could cause a problem and if anything it will be safer than the already on off light switch they have mounted near the tank now!

 

Any experience with relays and access control?

[scorpion 0]

This is my favorite one!

 

http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-ACC950_door_controller.html

 

You will love it because it is a "one up unit". In other words you do not need a panel somewhere, and install stuff all over the place. This has everything inside!

 

All you need is power to this device, and power to your maglock, or in your case the relay.

 

 

http://cctvsupportsite.com/

Look to the upper left where you see manuals, and software, click on ACCESS CONTROL

 

Scroll down to ACC 950

 

Click on Manuals, and Diagrams

 

Click on

acc950_userguide-1

 

This will show you how to wire the system!

 

Click on this for the complete manual

ACC-950v3 Manual 05 with quick guide

 

 

Keychain Prox "card" for drivers.

http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-ACC230_proximity_card.html

 

_____________________________________________________________

 

Maglock will hold a door closed when it is energized with 12 volts. When you waive your prox card then the device releases the 12 volts (turns it off), and the door opens, and then it reenergizes the maglock locking the door.

 

You can get what they call a "digital" relay. It uses opto to isolate.

You can use a 120 volt relay that is controlled by 12 volts therefore no spark from the relay itself.

 

_____________________________________________________________

 

Here is a trick. Put a red strobe light on the pump. When it is activated it will flash. Your drivers will be annoyed, unless you can put it somewhere where it is not in their eyes.

 

An unauthorized person will have a panic attack as they may think it is alarmed!

 

If there is a "lookout" it will def freak them out!

 

 

What do you think?

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Thanks for the replies scorpion.

 

You have a really cool idea. What I plan to do is set it up so the overlooking camera will record on access activation. Not too much will happen at that pump without the owner being aware.

 

I should mentioned I need prox readers that are industrial to operate -30 or more temps. It gets really cold up here in the dead of winter.

 

Also how do you all handle power outages. What if all the doors are access controlled and the power goes out for hours. A battery backup system will only last so long. There employees will no access to the building and the PIR exits will probably fail to function as well. I have not figured out a solution here but there must be a solution if lot of folks are getting access systems.

 

Thanks.

[scorpion 0]

I only do small jobs so I cannot truely answer those kind of questions.

 

I might do a car dealership, car rental, doctors office, or a fastfood restaurant where they are only locking one, or two doors for employees only, or to keep customers in a "lobby" area.

 

You have to plan each job to it's own needs.

 

If power goes out you do not want to use fail secure devices as the doors remain locked, and you cannot get in, or out.

 

In a cash room, you would not want to use fail safe devices as then the door would be unsecured, and so would the cash.

 

Most of the jobs that I do the doors work like they normally would work without the access control system.

 

The only problem to exit/entrance would be automatic doors such as at supermarkets, and such. They would not work without power anyways, so there would have to be a secondary door in the plan.

 

Without the access system you use the dead bolts to secure doors, and you still have door knobs to get in, or out, and with the access system you are taking your security to a higher level.

 

A door can be physically unlocked, but you can still keep the public out as they do not have a card to swipe.

 

A large multidoor system is a whole different breed, and not to be left to the "DIY". There are many codes, and regulations once you get to large multidoor systems.

 

 

On large multi door systems it would knock your socks off if you saw how many wires you would have to home run back to a panel!! YIKES!

 

_____________________________________________________________

 

This can be used for a small system for small power outages:

 

http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-PS8DCB_power_supply.html

 

or you can use this to custom make your own system:

 

http://eclipsecctv.com/ECL-MX12070_rechargeable_battery.html

 

 

You can always use Photo cells to keep a system charged up here in Florida.

 

I have seen rooms stacked with marine style "car" batteries!!

 

_____________________________________________________________

 

You will need to find someone who installs in that kind of environment.

 

Equipment might be rated for that temp, but an installer is going to really know what is going to survive, and what equipment has "personalities" at the extreme weather.

[thewireguys 3]

The Isonas reader is Panel free like the on Scorpion recommended. But the best part is you on have to run one cat5 home!!!!! In standalone mode the reader can store 64,000 users and 5,000 events. One Isonas reader with POE injector is cheaper and alot easier to install then a normal panel system.

 

There is 12volts @ .5amps to power the strike or maglock ( or in your case a relay) all with one cat5.

[jeromephone 6]

why go to all that trouble? why not buy a pump with built in card reader/prox etc? I would think the fuel pump vendors would have this in place as we have had unattended commerical fueling stations for years.

[scorpion 0]

Yes! Let me whip out that roll of $100.00 bills.

 

Ooops!

 

Anyone got change for a $1000.00 bill?

 

Sorry. I could not resist.

[C7 in CA 0]

why go to all that trouble? why not buy a pump with built in card reader/prox etc? I would think the fuel pump vendors would have this in place as we have had unattended commerical fueling stations for years.

 

Where's the fun in that?

[UMDRanger 0]

A large multidoor system is a whole different breed, and not to be left to the "DIY". There are many codes, and regulations once you get to large multidoor systems.

 

On large multi door systems it would knock your socks off if you saw how many wires you would have to home run back to a panel!! YIKES!

 

Pending the system you go with, there aren't any extra wires that need to be home runned. I know with Millenium Group systems you can daisey chain the power and data.

 

But I agree, multidoor systems are a whole nother breed, and are definately not for DIY without prior experience.

[3RDIGLBL 0]

I've looked through the links you folks have left me but the only thing I see as an issue is my customer is not a very tech savy person. I need a really easy to use interface where he can easily look at the access logs and add and remove employees.

 

What will happen with the solutions here is that I will get calls whenever he wants to do anything with it because he will get confused. The only solutions I think there are is going with a PC based access control system?

 

Any experiences with easy to navigate access controls systems?

 

Thanks

[C7 in CA 0]

my customer is not a very tech savy person. I need a really easy to use interface where he can easily look at the access logs and add and remove employees.

 

What will happen with the solutions here is that I will get calls whenever he wants to do anything with it because he will get confused.

 

If you can find something he can understand that is great. Your best bet is probably as jeromephone mentioned. Talk to the companies that make cardlock equipment.

 

But if you can't find a system he understands is that a bad thing? I rely on my "Moves, Adds, and Changes" service calls. It's the icing on the cake.

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Well he suggested the fuel pump. The fuel pump is only one part of the project. I don't want one system for the fuel and another for the door access.

 

I need a full rounded system easy to navigate for the customer. I do hear you about service calls, however, where I live people are cheap to begin with so I'm lucky to even find someone interested in access control so the easier I can make it the more word will get around about it.

 

Thanks

[thewireguys 3]

Hartmann controls is has a very easy to use user interface. But it is a panel system there is alot of wires to run. Here is a link

 

With the Isonas system you could run the software at your office on your server and administrate the system from our office. Sell him a maintenance contract so he doesn't have to do anything.

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Hartmann controls is has a very easy to use user interface. But it is a panel system there is alot of wires to run. Here is a link

 

With the Isonas system you could run the software at your office on your server and administrate the system from our office. Sell him a maintenance contract so he doesn't have to do anything.

 

Thank you, they appear to have a neat system but limited on what I could find for more info so I have sent them an email to have someone contact me. Thanks for the link.

[thewireguys 3]

yea there website sucks...... but they have a good product..... they sell direct

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Sweet, I got a call back from them and they are out of Toronto or at lease the tech guy that called me is. I spoke to them for a good while and I think that they will have what I am looking for. They seem to provide many options for integration which I was hoping.

 

I will be in Toronto in a few weeks so I am setting up a meeting with them where they will provide me some training and a walk through of their products and a new product they just introduced.

 

Thanks for the lead, this has been helpful.

[thewireguys 3]

Sweet, I got a call back from them and they are out of Toronto or at lease the tech guy that called me is. I spoke to them for a good while and I think that they will have what I am looking for. They seem to provide many options for integration which I was hoping.

 

I will be in Toronto in a few weeks so I am setting up a meeting with them where they will provide me some training and a walk through of their products and a new product they just introduced.

 

Thanks for the lead, this has been helpful.

 

Great let us know how this works out!!

[3RDIGLBL 0]

I totally forgot to get back to this post.

 

I did meet with Hartmann Controls out in Toronto. The sales guy brought over a demo kit and we walked through the software to program it.

 

I was not overly impressed with the system plus we left there with some action items he was supposed to get back to me about and I never heard from him. I was not going to chase them down for sure and they appear to be a very small company. Nope not going to go with them.

 

I decided to lock in with Keri Systems. They got the new IP Access Control devices which are much more cost effective and IP is the way to go now a days. Being able to tie together multiple buildings all on one server is makes it much more manageable. Plus they have been very responsive to questions about the system I am currently estimating out.

[thewireguys 3]

Why didn't you like the Isonas IP access control?

[kalpesh_nikumbh 0]

So have

 

Prox reader on the door

install the fail safe ( opens in no power conditons ) Lock

install Egrees switch from inside!! so no need to have card to open from inside!!!

Or reader is req. from inside , have "Emergency Realise button/switch from inside..

 

have Door Left open too long alarm thro sum buzzer or some lamp!!

 

want recent system!!...have smart card system ...probably in future u can intergrate it directly to the Pump **** .........and have informations s.a how much fuel he dumped .. etc.

 

have cool access control software , with time attendance for employeess..........

 

 

kalp.

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Why didn't you like the Isonas IP access control?

 

You know I hadn't really looked into them. Not sure about their pricing but I should look into them as they appear to have a nice product. Found this Youtube clip for Isonas.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSed2K4BMuY

 

Thanks

[MattFisher 0]

Just a thought, you could also interface a ground loop into the system to turn off the pump/s when a car or truck has left the pump.

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Tell you all what. Kerri Systems has got to have one of the most advanced access control systems out there (as far as customizing goes). The amount of customizing and programming you can do to it in order to adapt it to your needs is mind boggling.

 

Check out the NXT Series. It's a TCP based access control system.

 

Been messing with it on the bench, takes a while to get through the learning curve of it but once you get it it's very powerful. There tech support are very pleasant to work with, they have an online training course, which I did today.

 

I can go through features and operation here but I would go on forever. I'm glad I decided to choose this one. The price was right and I am able to do the fuel pump install as well.

 

Configuration is nearing completion (some learning curve delay) and wiring is nearly done at the customers.

 

I plan to use there system moving forward for any possible future installs.