How long can RG 59 work Cat5e?

[dj29152 0]

Hey guys,

 

quick q..

 

What is the maximum length a RG 59 and Cat 5e cable can transmit analog signal from the camera before it needs to be repeated?

 

16 Cams going into a hotel.

 

Thanks

[C7 in CA 0]

I keep hearing 750' for RG59. Cat5 can go a long way depending on the baluns used. But then power becomes an issue at those distances. I've never heard of repeating the signal...

 

How long are your runs, and can you power the cameras locally?

[dj29152 0]

I believe max run would be 400' - 500'. Well if i can run the power locally, that would be the best but, lets take the worst into account.

 

Are there any good priced baluns out there? ... ive compared Cat5e + baluns (32) and RG59 coax ... both 3 x 1000' spool and the siamese wins by a lot.

 

However if you use Cat5e, then in the future you can use IP based.

 

Whats your take?

[RickA 0]

What power are you using? If 24vac then you should be able to make your runs with a central power supply.

[Smit9352 0]

750' is what I've always heard also.

 

If your runs are going to be 500' and under you should be fine.

[C7 in CA 0]

 

However if you use Cat5e, then in the future you can use IP based.

 

Whats your take?

 

Good thought. But you are limited to 328' for Ethernet over copper.

[LiThiuM 0]

This RG59 to cat5r is really confusing to me too...

 

i Was looking for Ethernet cable on the internet some peoples says that you cannot run it over 364' (100m).

 

And i was checking on some Baluns on a website (can't post link cause I'm on my first pot :S ) and they say 2000ft ?? So im kind of confused.

 

They have a video explaning How to setup your Baluns for what i could understand if you have you Power next to your cam already you are only limited by the "booster" (aka baluns) and if you run a baluns with Power on it you are limited by the % lost trought you power lost ?

[tracenet 0]

I think your confusion is that you are thinking Cat5 in a network and Cat 5 as wiring for analog cameras. In a network the segment length is 100m or 328 Feet. In a analog camera wiring you can use Cat5 wire with Active Baluns or Passive Baluns to extend a long way to your cameras.

Maybe this helps or maybe not.

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

Hey guys,

 

quick q..

 

What is the maximum length a RG 59 and Cat 5e cable can transmit analog signal from the camera before it needs to be repeated?

 

16 Cams going into a hotel.

 

Thanks

 

Here are realistic industry standard numbers that you can use.

 

Decent quality RG-59 cable only can extend as long as 1,000'. This is the norm for this cable and without any arguments. Unless if you are using some cheapo cable made by who knows where, then this is the figure that is industry standard.

 

As for the CAT5e cable, again, if you are using decent cable, with good passive baluns, your maximum cable length is 1,500'... Some variables that must be under consideration and part of the equation - make sure that you do get good quality cable and then good quality passive baluns. There is too much junk in the market with various claims, most of which is nothing more than just a "claim". Also, if you have to extend CAT5e cable over 1,000', make sure you do not splice this cable for longer distance. Rather buy the cable with roll of 1,500 length and stretch to the distance. Trust me, IT WORKS GREAT!

 

If you need further than 1,500' stretch of video signal using CAT5e cable, then you must use active baluns and there is no substitute for this solution.

 

As for power cable (for the camera), your best bet is not to exceed more than 250' length using 18/2 cable... or better yet, provide local power to the camera within 25' distance. Again, you can extend this power cable further (dependent if you are pushing DC or AC voltage), then you will need power supply with variable voltage control, so that you can adjust the voltage at the beginning to archive your desired voltage level at the camera end. I do not recommend this at all, as the cost could escalate, but if this is the only choice, then there are solid solutions in place from various sources, mainly from Altronix.

[survtech 0]

Hey guys,

 

quick q..

 

What is the maximum length a RG 59 and Cat 5e cable can transmit analog signal from the camera before it needs to be repeated?

 

16 Cams going into a hotel.

 

Thanks

Decent quality RG-59 cable only can extend as long as 1,000'. This is the norm for this cable and without any arguments.

I beg to differ, as does much of the industry. For one thing, it depends on whether the center conductor is 22 gauge or 20 gauge. Both are common. The smaller the gauge number, the larger the diameter of the center conductor and the farther you can run the cable.

 

Pelco: In the average CCTV installation, with cable lengths of less than 750 feet (228 m),RG59/U cable is a good choice.

 

West Penn: The RG-59 has the highest attenuation of the three other types and you can expect to get a distance of about 750 - 1,000 ft. (note: All West Penn RG-59 CCTV cable is 20 gauge)

 

securityideas.com: In the average CCTV installation, with cable lengths of less than 750 feet (228 m), RG59/U cable is a good choice...

For short cable runs, use RG59/U with a 22-gauge center conductor, which has a DC resistance of about 16 ohms per 1,000 feet (304 m). For longer runs, the 20-gauge variety which has a DC resistance of approximately 10 ohms per 1,000 feet will work well.

 

Commscope:

Cable - Distances (feet)

Mini Coax - 350

RG59 Coax - 750

RG6 Coax - 1500

 

safetysecurityonline.com: While cable manufacturers say you can run RG-59 out to about 750-1,000 feet, we recommend not to run RG-59 more then 600’ from a camera to the DVR, otherwise you may experience signal loss and subsequent picture interference. RG-6 can usually be run at least 300 – 400 feet further than RG-59, but it does cost more.

 

There are many more examples.

 

If you use premium 20 gauge copper/copper RG-59; if the connectors are installed properly and if everything else is proper, you might be able to squeeze 1000 ft. out of RG-59 but I would personally rather err on the side of caution than have to replace the 950 ft of RG-59 I just ran with RG-6 because the picture was screwed up.

Edited August 7, 2008 by Guest

[dj29152 0]

WoW ... learned alot from this post..

 

Thanks a lot.

 

So the question i have for you guys is then what type of premium cable do you use?

 

Also what about power, can power be ran to at least 600' from the PDU?

 

Thanks

[survtech 0]

WoW ... learned alot from this post..

 

Thanks a lot.

 

So the question i have for you guys is then what type of premium cable do you use?

 

Also what about power, can power be ran to at least 600' from the PDU?

 

Thanks

Actually, we use CAT-5 with passive baluns for most cameras up to approximately 1000 ft. For longer runs we use passive transmitters and active receivers. When we use RG-59, we usually use West Penn 815 or 25815 for RG-59 and 825 or 25825 for mini coax (the 25xxx is plenum).

 

For power, you need to know how much power or current your camera needs. If the camera spec lists current draw, multiply it (remember it usually is in mA, which is 1/1000 amp, so 250mA = .25A) times the voltage to get power and plug that and the distance into the calculator here:

 

http://www.vihon.com/Vihon_Calculators/Vihon_Wire_Gage_Calculator/body_vihon_wire_gage_calculator.html Ignore the "VAC" next to "Source Voltage Amplitude ", it works equally well for VDC.

 

Most cameras can tolerate a 10% Allowable Cable Voltage Loss. Many 24VAC cameras can tolerate up to 20%, but that is pushing it. A few 12VDC cameras only allow 5%. Also keep in mind that most 24VAC power supplies actually put out 27-28 volts and some can be adjusted to 29 volts. Some 12VDC power supplies can also be adjusted higher to compensate for longer cable runs but you are best off using 12.0VDC and 24.0VAC in any calculations to allow a bit of headroom.

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

My friend survtech is using "quotes" from some company's perception what the limitations of this cable runs are or should be. I do not want to comment the sources that my friend is using for his assessment, rather a reality check and facts, but if he insists... Are you suggesting that my assessment is outside of the industry standard and I am misleading this post or may be I do not know what I am stating here? survtech, I thought that you know me better than that...

 

We install RG59, RG6, CAT5e and various other cables daily. I know that my experience always provided me with much better options than any biased quotes from any company in the past or presently. I do not understand you intentions in agreeing with these quotes, but that is for you to evaluate. Fact remains - your quotes are inaccurate.

 

Lets look at why, lets say Pelco as an example, will be saying this nonsense and I always question why they say it and their expectations for their audience to follow blind folded - it is called maximizing their returns and here is why... If you believe that your maximum RG59 cable length, lets say using good quality cable with 20 gage center conductor, is 750' and obviously you will need additional hardware to accommodate longer than 750' distance cables runs. This could entail purchasing video amplifiers, video stabilizers, etc. to "insure" that you do not loose video signal quality, thus it is a necessity... Well, my friend, I beg to differ very strongly against this Pelco assessment, as it is not based on facts, rather their biased opinion, which are also based on their scrupulous intentions to screw anyone they can.

 

I can challenge each and every one of your quotes from your sources. But you know, as you have done enough installs at your facilities and probably abroad, that what you are commenting and what you actually had seen are two different results. You want me to get real technical, I can and really prove that any of those quotes are bogus and they are very well designed to undermine the reality and maximize their respective hidden agendas. And that my friend is called creating confusion in the market so that new comers in the business will spend more than necessary to accommodate installation.

 

I should not be stating anymore than comments above. I firmly believe that it is not a good practice for a technical guru like yourself can fall into this type of trap and being biased with such nonsense.

 

Sorry my friend, at this time, I disagree with you 100%!

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

Actually, we use CAT-5 with passive baluns for most cameras up to approximately 1000 ft. For longer runs we use passive transmitters and active receivers.

 

Well my friend, I know the tests that you conducted about this topic and I did not dispute your finding then as a professional courtesy, but I will now.

 

We are exclusively using passive baluns from VU. I know that your test results has shown than this passive balun was not conforming to your requirements, but I have test results that actually came from the manufacturer that can challenge your findings, but I chose at that time not to bring forward. Your test results were not considering the major fact of the quality of the cable used, rather analysis of the loss of video signal using passive baluns. Did you actually try the same exact tests using the same exact passive baluns with different manufacturer CAT5e cables? I know that you did not, as you used the same cable and with different baluns for your tests.

 

All our CAT5e cables come from ADC (Advanced Digital Cable), which we also use exclusively, and passive baluns from VU... and comfortably run 1,500' straight runs without any loss of video quality. Any cable lengths higher than 1,500', we use active baluns from various manufacturers. This is a fact and we use it daily and without any problems!

 

West Penn was our exclusive supplier for over 20 years and guess what, when they dropped the quality of the cable on both RG59 and CAT5e and not including the fact that they raised the pricing tremendously, we had no choice to find another manufacturer and not a supplier... ADC produces excellent quality cable and the produce per order. When we go through over 250,000' of cable usage per month and with excellent results, they leave West Penn or similar companies in the dust because they do not short change on materials. They may not be as large as West Penn, but they make much better cable than most of such companies in the market.

 

The above comments are based on facts and not on assessments on other company's quotes!

[cctv_down_under 0]

Some cameras these days actually have amplification settings built in and they measure the impedance on the run and auto adjust...I still use Coax...but perhaps I am old fashioned, I also do not like the skew affect.

 

If I havea long run I simply use a camera with built in amplification and ...no worries on Coax

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

Very correct... Actually some manufacturers use terminology called AGC (Automatic Gain Control).

 

What is new and exciting happening in down_under? Are you still working with Bosch?

[ak357 0]

Some cameras these days actually have amplification settings built in and they measure the impedance on the run and auto adjust...I still use Coax...but perhaps I am old fashioned, I also do not like the skew affect.

 

If I havea long run I simply use a camera with built in amplification and ...no worries on Coax

 

What would be the model number for such cameras please

Thanks

[survtech 0]

Well my friend, I know the tests that you conducted about this topic and I did not dispute your finding then as a professional courtesy, but I will now.

 

We are exclusively using passive baluns from VU. I know that your test results has shown than this passive balun was not conforming to your requirements, but I have test results that actually came from the manufacturer that can challenge your findings, but I chose at that time not to bring forward. Your test results were not considering the major fact of the quality of the cable used, rather analysis of the loss of video signal using passive baluns. Did you actually try the same exact tests using the same exact passive baluns with different manufacturer CAT5e cables? I know that you did not, as you used the same cable and with different baluns for your tests.

 

All our CAT5e cables come from ADC (Advanced Digital Cable), which we also use exclusively, and passive baluns from VU... and comfortably run 1,500' straight runs without any loss of video quality. Any cable lengths higher than 1,500', we use active baluns from various manufacturers. This is a fact and we use it daily and without any problems!

So you are saying that the over 40% losses of sync, luminance and composite video levels and over 90% loss of color burst levels have no impact on the video? By what means of measurement? And the issue then was not to test different cable manufacturers' cables but to compare different manufacturers' baluns. That test still holds since it showed there was effectively no difference between the passive baluns. I don't understand why you took our tests as an indictment of the Video Baluns Unlimited baluns since I showed that they performed equally to baluns which sell for far more.

 

West Penn was our exclusive supplier for over 20 years and guess what, when they dropped the quality of the cable on both RG59 and CAT5e and not including the fact that they raised the pricing tremendously, we had no choice to find another manufacturer and not a supplier... ADC produces excellent quality cable and the produce per order. When we go through over 250,000' of cable usage per month and with excellent results, they leave West Penn or similar companies in the dust because they do not short change on materials. They may not be as large as West Penn, but they make much better cable than most of such companies in the market.

 

The above comments are based on facts and not on assessments on other company's quotes!

Facts? They are based on your opinions only. Whether you have a problem with West Penn or not, the industry in general recommends against the use of RG-59 for runs longer than 750 ft. without resorting to "cable compensation". And that assumes the use of 20 gauge RG-59. If you want to run longer lengths, that is your perrogative.

 

My guess is that for many applications, your customers would not notice any defect in the video at that length since they would not have any basis for comparison. The same goes for running 1,500 ft. of twisted-pair using passive-passive baluns. I can tell you that we can certainly tell the difference between the picture quality at 1,000 ft. and at 1,500 ft. using exactly the same baluns, cable, cameras and monitors. If you can't, perhaps you need better measuring or monitoring equipment..

 

By the way, a few sources that specify both 750 ft. and 1000 ft. limitations on RG-59 also state that the 750 ft. limit applies to color and the 1000 ft. limit to monochrome cameras. That makes a lot of sense because the 3.58MHz color burst would have the greatest losses attributable to cable capacitance versus the lower frequency sync and composite signals, which would be more affected by DC resistance.

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

So you are saying that the over 40% losses of sync, luminance and composite video levels and over 90% loss of color burst levels have no impact on the video? By what means of measurement? And the issue then was not to test different cable manufacturers' cables but to compare different manufacturers' baluns. That test still holds since it showed there was effectively no difference between the passive baluns. I don't understand why you took our tests as an indictment of the Video Baluns Unlimited baluns since I showed that they performed equally to baluns which sell for far more.

 

If you want, lets looks at technical specs and then compare with real world facts, and if that is what your intentions are. Fact is that you missed an important point that I made referring to the quality of the cable. If you would have used better cable for your testing that had less attenuation and and re-tested your baluns, you would have seen what I am referring to.

 

I think you have done a great service to go as far as you have running tests on various baluns and with outstanding results and I can assure you that such report is really not avail anywhere else. However, you covered only one side of the equation - the other side of the formula is type and the quality of the cable that you did not evaluate. And no, I do not have problems with West Penn, just their products that over time deteriorated in quality.

 

Facts? They are based on your opinions only. Whether you have a problem with West Penn or not, the industry in general recommends against the use of RG-59 for runs longer than 750 ft. without resorting to "cable compensation". And that assumes the use of 20 gauge RG-59. If you want to run longer lengths, that is your perrogative.

 

Your opinion, my opinion or someone elses opinion. I do not care on opinions, rather than fact. The fact is that working with over 8,000+ dealers in the country will vouch with statement and will stand behind this assessment, as they use it everyday and without any issues. Of course you will bring to me your scientific analysis to show that this is not correct and I can bring real world fact that science most of the time is incorrect.

 

My guess is that for many applications, your customers would not notice any defect in the video at that length since they would not have any basis for comparison.

 

Wrong assumption - Integrators and most dealers have better understanding of video quality than most of us do. If you are using some cheapo cable from god knows where, which is what this market has been flooded with, then your assumption could take a form. However, if you carefully select your components and that includes, yes, cable, then your overall system performance can and will excel.. This is not a fiction my friend, it is a reality!

 

The same goes for running 1,500 ft. of twisted-pair using passive-passive baluns. I can tell you that we can certainly tell the difference between the picture quality at 1,000 ft. and at 1,500 ft. using exactly the same baluns, cable, cameras and monitors. If you can't, perhaps you need better measuring or monitoring equipment..

 

No argument here, as you used I do not know which cable. Don't get me wrong, you have done something with these tests that no other person or a company ever done that I know of. However, if you used better cable, then you will observe better results. I am sure that you will not argue of the fact that you may have not used best cables possible. I also know that you mix both passive and active baluns to accommodate your over 1,000' runs at extra cost (active baluns cost much more). If you used better cables for few dollars more, then you did not have to waste money on active baluns for sub-1,500' runs!

 

By the way, a few sources that specify both 750 ft. and 1000 ft. limitations on RG-59 also state that the 750 ft. limit applies to color and the 1000 ft. limit to monochrome cameras. That makes a lot of sense because the 3.58MHz color burst would have the greatest losses attributable to cable capacitance versus the lower frequency sync and composite signals, which would be more affected by DC resistance.

 

Very good scientific analysis... By the way, I have MS in Electrical Engineering, so I fully understand your science. But... Science is nothing more than a guide and when dust settles down, what scientific figures are vs. reality are always way off.. Don't you agree

[survtech 0]

You know, I would have continued the discussion but your statement:

 

Of course you will bring to me your scientific analysis to show that this is not correct and I can bring real world fact that science most of the time is incorrect.

 

tells me that I would just be wasting my time. Adios!

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

survtech, sounds like you are upset and I sure hope not

 

Constructive discussions are always a good practice, regardless if we agree or disagree on selected topic.

 

I guess you are backing off... and I thought we are having a great time, and if you insist, then adios too

[cctv_down_under 0]

For your reference, any of the XF full body cameras from Bosch can use cable compensation to enhance the length of your run, by the time you consider switching to NVT and baluns or perhaps a distribution amplifier, it works out about the same to upgrade to an XF cam for example I think you can then run about 600 Meters on RG59, which is more than I usually need.

 

No I dont work for Bosch anymore....haven't for some time actually