foodguy123 0 Posted October 29, 2008 I've hired professionals to install the first two systems I needed, but I've decided to take the plunge myself and try and install a simple 4 dome cam + DVR system. I plan to use "siamese" video and 18/2 power cables that are plug and play, varying between 25' and 100'. These cameras require a 12VDC power supply. I know I can purchase the necessary pigtail cables to hook the 18/2 plug and play power cable to a 12VDC power supply box. But, why can't I just simply buy four 1 or 0.5 amp 12VDC transformers and plug them into a power strip/UPS? This would make the central power supply box unnecessary. This method seems like it would be both cheaper and easier to implement. But, I realized there has to be a reason people use the central power supply boxes. Are there energy savings? Better reliability? Safety? Something I'm not considering? This forum has been an immense help for learning about CCTV/DVR systems, so thank you for any advice in advance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lolo Wolf 0 Posted October 29, 2008 From a "workmanship" point of view, a central power box is cleaner and easier to monitor for fault (fused outputs) The idea of a power strip filled or maxed out with wall warts and the wires -often additonal mess (more than likely you will have many other devices ....computer...monitors etc within the same local, however dependent of the length of your runs and cam placement - with 12vdc sometimes it is needed to power closer to the cam (such as a transformer to wall plug near camera) to compensate for any voltage drop. In the event multiple power supplies are needed/used due to wire length issues at several locations its important to make sure that all are working off a common ground. Some PS boxes allow you to adjust output as well aiding in meeting the power requirements of the cam. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scorpion 0 Posted October 29, 2008 4 wall warts are a pain in the neck, but 3 feet lower! First have fun finding a power strip that has plugs that sit side saddle, and then on top of that, the plugs have to be spread apart enough to mount the transformers side by side. Great! You just spent $50.00 on surge protected side saddle, transformer fitted power strip when you could have spent the $50.00 on a power box! Hmm?? First save yourself the money on pigtails. You can cut the end of the transformer power supply and attach it to the far end of the siamese at the camera end. The cut wire then can be attached to the siamese at the power end. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you buy inline fuses! This will save you a house fire down the road. Yes the transformers have built in protection, but then I like air bags to back up my seatbelts, but then again drive safely, and you should never have to depend on them right? Until you get hit by the other driver who does not drive safe. I highly recommend a boxed power supply. It is much easier to care for when you have to trouble shoot. If you can afford it go for the one that has a 12 volt battery in it so that if the power goes out you still have the cameras powered until the battery dies, and then have a UPS on the DVR, and you can still record for a duration during power outages. Don't crooks like to cut power, and phone lines? I have a question. Why did you have two professional installers set up your other systems, but now you do not want it professionally installed? Did they fail to do a proper install? Did they make you mad somehow? What did they fail to do on the other systems. Are you just a tinkerer, and you want to do this yourself so that you can tinker? If you have watched the first two systems installed then this gives you enough info to do it yourself, and using this forum as an information tool should help you through the process. The biggest failure of any DIY system is always the lense selection. This will make or break your system faster then you can say costco! Always make your system do more than what it was designed to do. For example: Spend more on varifocal cameras then fixed lens cameras. When an unexpected event comes up you will not have to buy a new camera to take care of a new threat. Just reorient the camera, and change the vari focal to meet the new threat, and when it goes away reorient it back to the original position, and set the vari focal back to where it was. You spend more upfront, but save 4 times that down the road! Select IR cameras that fit the distance perfectly. Do not forget that cheap IR cameras are rated 30 feet (US distance) and that this is only effective at 15 feet. Measure the distance from where the camera is mounted to the area that you are watching. Double this distance for your night time IR distance. It is not a perfect science, but it will save you from buying 30 feet IR cameras, and starring in to black video during the winter when it gets dark real early! Spend the most money on the outside! You can use cheap crappy cameras on the indoors. EXCEPT for business that point a camera at the front door, the back door, ATMs, and anyplace where there is a cash register, or where cash is counted. Bars, and nightclubs can use one inch by one inch cameras to watch pool tables, dart board areas, and unimportant table, and seating areas. Spend the money on the outdoor cameras, and the front door camera. What do you think? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foodguy123 0 Posted October 29, 2008 To respond to both Lolo Wolf and scorpion - thank you both for your helpful replies thus far! I do value your input, so please don't interpret my response as one of a person who already made his decision and doesn't seek additional feedback. I'm still on the fence. I guess I should have provided more details... These are for some restaurants. The first two were professionally done, and while the company provided great service at a decent price, I found that I was doing half the setup work by having to help the techs aim the cameras and generally have to be there for the whole process. Further, it was left up to me to learn how to back up to external hard drive and get the dynamic IP stuff working for remote viewing. I got an estimate for the professional job again, but I think I can do it myself for less than half the price while getting even better quality equipment. Given the T-bar commercial ceilings, even as a not so handy person I can comfortably run the wires. This third location is all interior, no bright sunlight to contend with, yet, at night, the lights stay halfway on, so there's never a time where there are extreme lighting conditions. There's only one door, so I can get away with 4 cameras only. It's a very low crime area along busy streets, so the cameras are mainly for keeping an eye on the employees and guarding against slip and fall type situations from customers. All things considered, this has to be considered a rather "easy" job. I'm probably going to go with a Vitek VT-E4 and four VTD-C410 "high resolution" dome cameras. This setup will be comparable to my other locations where the video quality has been adequate for my needs. Appearances and extra wires do not concern me. Since it's a commercial location it'll be up high in a back office, it's not a problem. Cost of surge protector/power strip + UPS is free because I have a few extra sitting around. I also have an existing LCD to hook up for live viewing. Battery backup - this is a valid point, and believe me, I've thought about it. The restaurant sits alone a well-lit busy road, so it's probably not going to be a target for a complex robbery. If they're good enough to cut the power lines or to pounce during a prolonged power outage, they're probably going to be smart enough to steal or tamper with the CCTV equipment. I'm mostly concerned with the following points: Troubleshooting - I don't think I follow here. How would troubleshooting individual lines that go from camera to outlet be more difficult than from camera to box to outlet? It seems like there would be fewer variables to consider as you could isolate the problem. For example, if camera #3 went out, it would be really easy to just switch out one transformer and re-test rather than switch out an entire box. Voltage or "adequate power" - the camera specs say they need 12 V DC that supplies at least 2.5 watts on power. One camera will be 100' away, and another only 25'. I used the online wire length calculator, and with 12VDC, 18 AWG wire, and it looks like I should get 500 milliamp transformers for the far cameras, and 1000 milliamp transformer for the close camera. Is this correct, if I go this route? In-line fuses: will get some at radioshack if I go this route. Common grounding - I don't understand this at all? I guess what I'm hearing is that what I want to do is possible, yet not the best route. Thanks again for the help. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lolo Wolf 0 Posted October 29, 2008 In most cases If a cam was to go down - the blown fuse in a box would be a indicator to a wire fault or internal power issue within the cam itself thus eliminating a suspected single failed PS, whereas you would be able to start troubleshooting the path and after correcting the issue just replace the fuse more cost effective than a trans replace. You stated :"Appearances and extra wires do not concern me. Since it's a commercial location" ..... All the more reason to adhere to a "clean" install with good wire management and proper safe methods for your install. Restaurants are filled with motors, appliances,light fixtures etc all that can induce electrical pollution and disrupt cctv devices. Attention to all cable/wire paths is important. Terminating all your devices to a central PS that is protected and mechanicaly sound (secured and mounted) is a added plus to achiveing a quality install. A PS strip layin around on a shelf or on the floor is prone to physical disruption, better to build a system that you can walk away from and wont haunt you later. Dont know your location but be advised -low-voltage and limited energy wire supported by T-Bar ceilings - some locales have codes pertaining to (LV) and dont allow electrical wiring to be secured to ceiling support wires. However, independent support wires may be installed and used to secure low voltage wiring - the low-voltage and limited energy wiring must be supported by the building structure in such a manner that cables will not be damaged by normal building use. Cables cannot lie on top of ceiling tiles but must be properly supported. Being a commercial situation and in the event you are called on a fire inspection or related inspections from a building authority it pays to follow code. Just my thoughts... good luck sir regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RickA 0 Posted October 29, 2008 Have been to many of these that have used wall warts, just to find that the camera was good and the wall wart was unplugged, or the surge strip used was burnt due to dirt/dust/grease build up between the prongs of the wall wart. Using the central power supply is far easier to troubleshoot and also easier to work with if groundloop issues occur. Usually with the 12vdc central power supply you have an adjustable voltage supply to allow raising the vdc to compensate for voltage drop for your long runs. Hope this helps. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foodguy123 0 Posted October 30, 2008 Well, since the overwhelming majority of people feel as though the central supply is better, I suppose I would be foolish not to use it. Thank you for all the input. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scorpion 0 Posted October 30, 2008 How about 4 solar cell panels? LOL! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted October 30, 2008 I agree a central power supply is a more elegant solution. That said, if you have an install that used a bunch of individual wall warts, there are solutions: Gets Rid of Wall-Warts - Tributaries Power Strip http://www.popgadget.net/2008/03/_do_you_have_un.php Furman PlugLock Outlet Strip http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Furman-PlugLock-Outlet-Strip?sku=421950 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
