feedback wanted: camera locations

[alpine0000 0]

i currently have a 4 camera setup, but in a few months i am adding 4 more cameras, and moving my current cameras around. essentially, a total system redesign and adding new hardware.

 

i did a quick and dirty sketch in visio. 5 cameras outside, and 3 cameras inside which havent yet been determined.

 

what do you guys think of the camera locations? camera A and B are wide views of front/back yard, while C, D, and E will be zoomed in to monitor front/back door, and car. all outdoor cameras are 3-8mm varifocal with infrared.

 

i really would like to incorporate a PTZ somewhere outside, but not sure if its practical. but im REALLY trying to find a nitch for one! do you think i could find a practical location? (my only concern is that the night vision quality on most are poor, which make the stationary infrared cams i have superior).

 

house is split level. 2 stories on left side, and 1 story on right side.

 

what do you guys think? what would you do with the outside of the house? move cameras to diff locations? add more cameras? get rid of 1 or 2 cameras? use diff cameras? i know there are blind spots on the sides of the house, but there are no windows or doors on either side. also, there is no fence around the house, and no choke points. all wide open grass yard, except for the two evergreen trees on the top left.

 

all feedback is encouraged and welcome.

 

thank you!

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Heck I'll take a stab and be the first to respond.

 

I would change the front door cam location so you have a better chance of getting a facial shot. Maybe in the corner right near your door.

 

How high will your surrounding cameras be? Because you have no fences, and blind spots as you mention that leaves them as clear targets to be taken down by determined thief that could come from the unwatched side.

 

What are the distances being watched? Your camera watching the front of the house appears to have a lot of ground to cover and you may be unhappy with clarity of recorded video due to the coverage area. You mention it is dark but is it completely dark at night or are there street lights?

 

Maybe install motion sensing flood lights to help your cameras out.

 

Some thoughts without seeing the place. At least you appear familiar with the importance of choke points Some folks just want to capture it all without thinking that they may not have a clear enough image to make out what it is they want to see.

[sw 0]

Personally, I think PTZ is overage for a home system as most anything you get on camera will most likely be found through your recordings. Who has time to sit there and pan/tilt/zoom your camera's around?

 

If you've got the extra money and love to play with your cams go for it. But you will most likely find that you never use it outside of adjusting your camera's (which you can do much cheaper with a ladder).

 

my 2¢. Good luck with your system.

 

-Rob

[alpine0000 0]

Heck I'll take a stab and be the first to respond.

 

I would change the front door cam location so you have a better chance of getting a facial shot. Maybe in the corner right near your door.

 

How high will your surrounding cameras be? Because you have no fences, and blind spots as you mention that leaves them as clear targets to be taken down by determined thief that could come from the unwatched side.

 

What are the distances being watched? Your camera watching the front of the house appears to have a lot of ground to cover and you may be unhappy with clarity of recorded video due to the coverage area. You mention it is dark but is it completely dark at night or are there street lights?

 

Maybe install motion sensing flood lights to help your cameras out.

 

Some thoughts without seeing the place. At least you appear familiar with the importance of choke points Some folks just want to capture it all without thinking that they may not have a clear enough image to make out what it is they want to see.

 

the cameras will be 1.5 stories high, just under the eave of the split level side of the house. so id guess about 15 feet up, definitely too high for somebody to tamper with without a ladder.

 

the distance covered is not far. my house/yard is small. from cam B to the driveway is maybe 30 feet max.

 

my PTZ idea wouldnt be for all cams. itd be one PTZ mounted on the roof or somewhere high just to play around with it wouldnt replace all the rest, and nobody would be controlling it except me when i log in remotely just to look around the yard and neighborhood a bit (i travel for long periods and like to check in on stuff).

 

also, there are no street lights. i have a motion light installed at the front door and the back door, though. along with a post light in the middle of the front yard that comes on when it gets dark outside (photocell). so, its not completely pitch black, but its not extremely well lit like a parking lot, either. and, its only lit when it detects motion. but if id like to login and view the backyard remotely at night time, and the motion lights arent on, thats where infrared comes in handy.

 

oh, and cameras A and B i know wouldnt provide facial recognition. i just want a broad overview of the yard. for example, i am in iraq right now, and am paying a lawn service to come rake all the leaves in the back yard next week. a wideview camera would let me login to make sure it was done

 

and the wide view camera covering the front yard would enable me to make sure that my buddy isnt letting the newspapers pile up on my driveway while im out of town. hahaha. just examples but they wouldnt need to be precise facial recognition cams. just the ones that i will have zoomed in on the front door, back door, and car would i care about identifying faces. the rest are just for me checking up on the home.

 

thanks for the thoughts so far keep em coming!

[scorpion 0]

Give us a google maps sat view url so that we can see your house!

 

To go outside of this post for others who are planning a system.

 

If you want to see the whole property then you will need about 4 cameras facing straight out from the house. Line up the video shots so that the farthest right side camera has the video edge on the left side lines up with the next camera to the left so that you have a panorama per se.

Do the same with the 3rd and 4th camera as well.

 

Use 6mm lens to avoid distance distortion, and 60 feet of IR.

 

_____________________________________________________________

 

Your cameras are perfect!

 

If you were to tweak them a bit then here is what I would do.....

 

 

Camera C

I agree with 3RDIGLBL. This would be a great shot for a bank, or a dept store that wants a facial of a shop lifter. I would put the camera to the left of the door, facing to the right. I can see who trys to ring the door bell to see if we are home, and if no one answers then they go around back to break in. You can verify if packages were delivered. You can see if someone comes up to take said delivered package.

 

You get a free shot of your car in the driveway. A wide angle lens will give you the whole view, but because of distance distortion you will not get facial recognition if anyone tampers with the car/cars.

 

Now you can use a camera real close to the driver's side door as you can get for the facial shot!

 

Camera D

This is a bad shot. In winter when it gets dark earlier then you will get the head lights right in to the camera. Imagine every lost person who just happens to turn around in your driveway. Imagine the person who pulls up, and throws rocks/eggs/molotov and you have the headlights in the camera.

 

This needs to be more of a side shot. If you change this to a 12mm or higher then you can use this as a secondary camera and aim it at the drivers door. This needs to be moved closer. If the camera is a 60 foot IR throw then it is only effective at the 20 to 30 feet distance.

 

Measure from the camera mount (to include camera height) to the area that you want to watch in the video. Double this distance for your IR distance. A cheap IR camera that has a 30 foot throw will be effective at 15 feet. Just the right distance with someone in your yard.

 

How far is the back bumper of your car compared to the camera mount area? If the 60 foot IR is way too close then you will over illuminate the subject and not get a good video shot. (Photographers do this to hide pimple pocks, wrinkles, and other facial blemishes by over using the flash)

 

 

Camera B

This is good as long it is planned for this position. How far is the camera IR throw? It is only effective at have of this distance. How far from the camera do you plan to look out in to the yard? A wide angle lens would tell you the whole story! Neighbor comes from their property onto your property, and performs some deed that you do not like. This would verify where they came from and what they did. You will not get a facial shot unless they are 5 to 10 feet with a 3.8mm or a 4.mm lens.

 

If you are going all the way to the gutter (the center line from the camera) then what is this distance? Double it for your IR distance. You will need to match the lens to the distance. A 4mm and a 6mm is not going to work. A facial shot will require a higher mm number. I would use two cameras. One with the wide angle for full view, and the other for telephoto to get up in to the shot.

 

Camera A

This is good for a wide angle lens with wide throw IR with the distance to match the area to be watched.

 

Camera E

 

This appears to watch the windows and perhaps a back door. Close up lens for facial is recommended here.

 

PTZ would be recommend from a sales person hat that I am wearing to make an extra buck.

 

The reality would be that I would only suggest it because of a high threat level.

1. You live in a very exclusive neighborhood.

2. You have a million dollars cash under your mattress (what is your address again)?

3. You have multiple low level threats. (you live in the hood).

 

I like a PTZ to be a vari focal camera.

 

Everytime you have a new threat you can orient the camera in the direction needed, and then you can zoom in, or out to match the threat.

 

You just started a new business, and you are waiting for your new checks, and your bank card (credit/debit) to come in the mail. You can orient the camera to the mail box, and zoom in. When the threat is over then you can reorient the camera back to it's original position.

 

It is halloween and you are concerned about ???. Re orient the PTZ to match that threat.

 

A car has been spotted doing something that they should not be doing.

You can orient the camera to catch a license plate going down the road.

 

Your neighbor went on vacation and asked you to watch their house across the street.

 

A dog keeps pooping in your yard and you want to know which neighbor's dog it is.

 

You landscaper keeps stealing your plants (and resells them to other clients).

 

See how it meets multiple threats? Now you can match a new threat that you never thought of down the road.

 

News flash there is a peeping tom on the loose. Point it at a window to give you security.

 

How did I do?

What do you think?

Edited November 28, 2008 by Guest

[sw 0]

I like your PTZ idea. That actually sounds like fun, and I might just try that on my house someday.

 

Of note, be mindful of any privacy issues with neighbors. If you are panning their yard/house (or they think you are) they may cause some trouble. You might get a reputation as the neighborhood peep

 

I recommend getting familiar with the legal issues which may apply in your region.

[alpine0000 0]

great thoughts scorpion! youve almost talked me into mounting a PTZ in the front of my house near the roof for fun! (i really dont think i *need* one for my application, but im such an electronics dork and want to play with it when im out of town bored at the parents house, or what have you).

 

as for the camera facing the car that you suggested i move closer, would you believe that that camera is only about 10-14 feet from the front bumper of the car?! (very small yard!) oh, i also mounted it there too because its higher up (looking from the side, the roof makes an upsied down V), the closer i move it to the driveway, the lower the camera has to become, and its only one story on that side of the house. so if i move it all the way up to the corner of the house near the driveway, it would become accessible to a somewhere tall person.

 

but again, the cameras that i already have ar 3-8mm and i think this would work nicely for this application because i dont think id need anything longer than an 8mm range for what im doing.

 

oh, if i mounted a PTZ it would be as high up as i could get it where camera C is located.

 

let me see if i can get a google maps shot...

[scorpion 0]

Cameras seem to chase off bad renters in a neighborhood that is a nice neighborhood, but because the property changes as the elderly die off, or move, and children (adult age children) tend to rent the house out to anyone as the house is old, and needs thousands, and thousands of dollars to get back up to mint condition.

 

This is real common in our area of Florida. A neighborhood that was planned and built in the 80s, and now the community is full of retirees, and young familys, then all of a sudden you start seeing house for rent then all of a sudden one bad apple moves in and then the other good renters leave when the lease is up so that they do not have to deal with it and that leaves the home owners who have to deal with it everyday, and slowly the neighborhood goes down hill till the cops have to be called in because of the renters bad children, or the loud stereos that thump thump as they go by, and the trash, and god forbid if you get a drug dealer who leased there so that he "blends" in, but the traffic is the giveaway.

 

Talk to your neighbors. If they know about it in advance they might be on board. The safer the neighborhood appears the more resistance you get.

 

We have gated communities where an investor buys 2, 3, 4, or even more houses, and rents them out and get the section 8 benefits, and they have to rent to section 8 tenents!!!! This is a nice gated community people. Turn down the stereos, clean up your yard, pick up your trash, and reighn in your punk kids!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!

 

See! The well to do have their problems too!

 

Talk to your neighbors. Plan it in a way where it becomes their "idea".

 

You never know. If they are extremely against the cameras then hide them in bird houses, dog houses, fake water pump houses, planters, and so on.

 

What do you think?

Edited November 28, 2008 by Guest

[alpine0000 0]

great idea, scorpion. here ya go!

[scorpion 0]

Video is not too much of a problem in Florida.

 

Audio on the camera is going to cause you more grief then you need.

 

Audio built in to cameras really need a lot of planning, and proper execution.

 

Then again if you have a high threat level you may need audio.

 

_____________________________________________________________

 

Click on these links on the left at http://www.rcfp.org/taping/

 

Introduction

State-by-state guide

Tape-recording laws at a glance

Consent and its limits

Interstate phone calls

Possession and publication

The FCC’s role

Cellular & cordless calls

Citations to cases in articles

 

_____________________________________________________________

 

Interspousal Wiretapping in California

 

http://erickregalado.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/interspousal-wiretapping-in-california/

 

_____________________________________________________________

 

18 U.S.C. §2511

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/18usc2511.htm

Edited November 28, 2008 by Guest

[alpine0000 0]

I like your PTZ idea. That actually sounds like fun, and I might just try that on my house someday.

 

Of note, be mindful of any privacy issues with neighbors. If you are panning their yard/house (or they think you are) they may cause some trouble. You might get a reputation as the neighborhood peep

 

I recommend getting familiar with the legal issues which may apply in your region.

 

i am good friends with all of my neighbors. ive lived in the house for about 20 years. None of them would ever call the cops on me. If anything, theyd come over and HELP me install the cameras! haha. one of my neighbors just helped me install a hardwood floor a few months ago, and i helped my other neighbor put up a fence (all weekend project). then i helped him install a new AC unit in his backyard.

 

like i said, no legal issues here. we are all friends

 

but, i wouldnt be peeping on them anyways

[scorpion 0]

You like the idea!

 

I wanted the google map URL as you also can do street view if you have been included in the data base.

 

 

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=911+fulton+lane+palm+bay+fl&sll=29.47046,-95.371345&sspn=0.004147,0.006866&ie=UTF8&ll=28.018478,-80.587272&spn=0.000526,0.000858&t=h&z=20&msa=0&msid=112640594629260770661.000438e2d2fc740314126

 

 

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=911+fulton+lane+palm+bay+fl&sll=37.09024,-95.712891&sspn=30.957823,56.25&ie=UTF8&ll=28.019712,-80.58727&spn=0.00841,0.013733&z=16&g=911+fulton+lane+palm+bay+fl&iwloc=addr&layer=c&cbll=28.018279,-80.587471&panoid=SzlKeVRnAzj9zdiDOO11Dw&cbp=12,56.46900679828775,,0,5

 

Views are blocked by bushes, and palm trees. This is a bad shot as the sun is behind the house, and the area is dark.

 

These two shots can give you alot of info before you go out to do a site survey for a customer. I was doing this alot due to the high fuel costs.

Thank goodness the gas has come down!! I am saving a minimum of $800 a month in gas now!! It is about a buck 90 here. I thought I would never see that price again!

Edited November 28, 2008 by Guest

[alpine0000 0]

Audio on the camera is going to cause you more grief then you need.

 

Audio built in to cameras really need a lot of planning, and proper execution.

 

Then again if you have a high threat level you may need audio.

 

i dont need audio.

 

i have limited threats, and live in a nice neighborhood with very low crime. this is mostly for peace of mind when im on the other side of the world, and to keep track of home service that i pay for while away.

 

mainly, i would like to: check on my car, check on the lawn service, check if my mailbox is still standing (have had issues with kids bashing it in), check if packages were delivered, and also monitor the security of my back door.

 

the PTZ is strictly me wanting to have fun, and be able to pan around my yard. i admit, it is a bit overboard, but sometimes thats the way things go with me

[scorpion 0]

I threw in the audio links as these posts tend to pop up on google searches, and people are redirected to these posts.

 

I tend to go overboard with links, notes, and info so that everyone who reads these posts can walk away with a nugget of treasure of information that they need.

[alpine0000 0]

with a nugget of treasure

 

lol

 

so, back on topic

 

any thing else that anybody wants to suggest?

[scorpion 0]

bump

 

I am using IE8. I love the new features but my quick clicks miss until my hand is retrained where to click. LOL! I keep hitting quote instead of edit when I am typing in a blur and I need to go back and edit.

[Stanislav 0]

Exact sizes are needed for modeling your task with VideoCAD.

There can be a lot of variants. Camera locations, heights of installation, quantity, lens parameters, image resolution are critical! To get the best variant you should see on project stage what you will get in result. And think as a intruder....

For example: I can suggest to move cam A and cam E to expand control area to the left and to watch back door from two sides.

May be cam E is unnecessary there. It can be moved to the left wall. Cams A and B are not guarded against damage from the left.

Cam D should be moved to the lower-right corner. On the corner it will control more wall area and will be guarded by cam A.

4 cameras are preferable for one monitor. You can place 4 image on one square-screen. Or use 3x3=9 cameras or 2 screen with 4 cameras.

 

See image. But it is example only. It is impossible to design CCTV system using only location plan. Download this illustrated article for details http://cctvcad.com/Files/the_principles_of_cctv_design_in_videocad_part1.pdf

 

[RickA 0]

Hey Scorpion I see you are back on track with you novels, and by the way speaking of traffic revealing drug dealers... is that why they put up the new stoplight in front of your house?

[scorpion 0]

I thought the city was just being nice so I could back the work van out as I have no side windows.

 

To think that I was the "MAN" in my hometown! From what you say, then I am going to have to watch out for "THE MAN"! LOL!

 

I was just getting ready to install an X10 wireless controller in the traffic light box so that I could push a button when I am ready to back out, and the light would change automatically just like the firestation!

[alpine0000 0]

Stan,

 

nice to hear your thoughts, and thanks for the reply! a few things i considered though with your ideas:

 

For example: I can suggest to move cam A and cam E to expand control area to the left and to watch back door from two sides.

 

Hmm. not a bad idea. and i thought about that, but if i move cam E to the right side of the door, then itll be mounted on the "1 story" side of my house, and somebody could reach it. where i have it now, itd be hanging from the 1.5 level side, about 15 feet up, out of reach

 

Cam D should be moved to the lower-right corner. On the corner it will control more wall area and will be guarded by cam A.

The lower right hand corner, again, puts it within arms reach. where i have it now, in the middle of that exterior wall, it would be mounted at the peak of the roof. also, it wont guard much wall area because it will be zoomed in to cover just my truck so i can get facial recognition if possible.

 

although, i am thinking about hanging it on the top right corner of the picture there, cause then itll be right next to the big bay window in front of my house, and in the *front* of the house, which will take more balls to tamper with. plus, it may be covered by other cameras in the front of the house if i aim correctly.

 

also, right now, i have bullet cams, but im seriously thinking about replacing those with dome cams to mount under the eve of the roof.

 

4 cameras are preferable for one monitor. You can place 4 image on one square-screen. Or use 3x3=9 cameras or 2 screen with 4 cameras.

this is a complete non-issue for me. i dont keep monitors running in my house. i merely login remotely to check on it, and i pull up one cam at a time due to band width. i could care less if i have "uneven cameras"

[Stanislav 0]

Alpine0000, you are right. You have necessary information for your design

Camera defence is important too. A lot of things are critical for CCTV design. Some of them are relative, some contradict one another

Camera height of 1.5-2.5 meters provides maximal face recognition area but by defence reason the height should be higher. However you can use vandalproof camera, mured, hided, pin-hole cameras.....

But pin-hole cameras have low light sensitivity...

More field of view provide more covered area, but less recognition area. and so forth.

 

Good design is a compromise. Camera image models on design stage are very helpful for right choice.