CraigVM62 0 Posted January 27, 2005 Hi, I am new to this forum and rather new to CCTV for the most part. As an residential electrician who specializes in low voltage, I have mainly dealt with a few cameras via modulators as are common in newer / nicer homes. A good friend is opening a large public storage facility and talked me into doing the CCTV for it. It started out as perhaps 7 outdoor cameras and an 8 channel stand alone DVR, but he has now decided to jump to 10 interior and 8 exterior cameras. With 18 channels, it seemed a 32 CH PC based DVR would be in order and am looking at purchaseing from this distributor: http://www.sharpvisioncctv.com/ I was hopeing to get first impressions from those of you who deal with this stuff for a living. Their basic 32 ch unit seems to have all the features that meet our needs and for around $4000 it fit in the budget. All camera will be standard color mounted in outdoor housings or armor domes for the interior so no PTZ features will be utilized. From the DVR / Office location I have Cat5e ran to each of 5 remote buildings with the farthest run near 300 feet. At a central location of each building I was going to utilize these "EZ005" 4x BNC female to 1xRJ45 female+ 8 pin terminal blocks found here. http://www.sonerik.com/cat5cable.asp with a matching unit back at the DVR office location. At $40 each, should I not expect any kind of decent performance? The budget will not allow for high end components. I hope I am not labeling myself as some "wanna-be" trying to put together a system off Flea-bay" haha Your thoughts and input would be greatly appreciated Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
qman 0 Posted January 28, 2005 One word, GARBAGE!!! You are not going to find a good 32CH DVR in that price range, actually, that's cheaper than DEALER prices for some of the better ones. Plus there is the question of support. You want a good 32CH DVR? Check this one out, at send me a PM and I'll give you more details. http://www.i-view.com.tw/dg-3200ase.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 28, 2005 Well, sounds like fun to cut down on cost and get a good system, try to cut down to 16 cameras. I have never heard of this SharpVision product, seems it is a custom PC system. As for the cat5 cable, I have noticed some loss of video quality, using Baluns at only 150'. Video IS still good, however im a die hard high quality fan They are what we call Passive Devices, non amplified. Therefore like any video without amplifiers there is loss over distance. Active (amplified) gives you almost no video loss up to distances such as 1.5 miles, and they also have things like interference rejection, protection against ground hums, and transient protection. Unfortunately for good active transcievers, the budget job is out of the questionl; they are not cheap - for example, www.NVT.com is one of the most popular in the US. Since you say there is a budget, then you may only be left with something like what you linked to, as far as transmission goes. Questions: How do you plan to power the cameras? Are they 12VDC or 24VAC? How many cameras? Are any cameras looking at door entrances, Warehouse Loading Docks? How is the lighting, day & night? Do you prefer color or can do with Black & White only? Is the location Pitch Dark at night? Do you want High Resolution Cameras? Are you looking for a deal, or high quality video? As for the DVR, its up to you. But remember, there is little point in buying a good camera ($200+) yet buying a cheap DVR or using Cheap Transmission. The better product will not perform as should and can be a waste of money, where a cheaper alternative would have been more feasable. Rory Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CraigVM62 0 Posted January 28, 2005 I am afraid to ask what that i-view unit must run. I can imagine it would be near what I am chargeing for the entire project which is in the $14,000 range. In a nut shell this is what the configuration I am looking at: As I had mentioned, there are 5 remote buildings. The cameras at each building "some exterior and some interior" will run via RG-59 to the central location where I plan on having the baluns / hub located. From that location I have UTP ran to the office where the DVR will be. Each building will have it's own power supply. The exterior cameras are 24V Higher Resolution Color models with 3-8 auto iris lenses from here http://vsequipment.com/sonyfullcamera.html They will be sitting in basic Pelco type housings with heater / fan. The power supplies for buildings with more than one of the outdoor cameras will be Altronix 4 amp / 4 output model. One building has just one outdoor camera so I was going to use a basic plugin 24V 50VA transformer. For the indoor cameras I was useing these armored color dome cameras http://www.intellicamusa.com/adhc200.htm These will be powered via 12volt transformers. These cameras will be viewing hallways that are very well illuminated day and night. I am not so lucky for the outdoor cameras. They will be looking between buildings and have several large outdoor lights within their image frame at night. I no doubt will be doing alot of individual adjustments on each of these cameras trying to avoid total backlit problems, without subjects being washed out if near the lights. For the prior mentioned 4 BNC input hubs. I have ordered one pair of them and will see how they work on the far building which will have a total run of near 350 feet between the UTP and RG-59 from camera to DVR. If they don't work, I will see how they do on the nearest building which is perhaps 165' from camera to DVR. From another post I have read where people have had luck with Vigitron products. I can get their version of this same hub for around $200 which I could swing. I looked through my distributor catalogs "ADI and Tried" and see the NVT active units are well out of the budget. I don't think I could talk him into stepping down to only 16 cameras as he realy wants the ability to expand a few cameras in the future beyond the 18 that are now planned. The budget would allow for (2) 16 channel Stand Alone DVR's if that would provide a better, more reliable system. Remote access via LAN / Internet is something he has his heart set on though. All channels to be triggered via the DVR's video motion feature. I was going to get the Sharpvision PC Based DVR at dealer price of $4000 where it is normaly $5,500. to general public... I had spoken with several owners of simular public storage facilities whom have much more basic CCTV Systems installed "generaly just one overlooking the access gate and a few hit and miss round the facility. They all state they rarely have problems where the CCTV system is utilize to resolve the problem. Also, this facility uses a very high end Security / Access system where each of the 350 different is like it's own zone. When a person enters the facility and punches in the code at the gate, it dissarms their particular unit and is then rearmed when the enter the code to exit the facility. So I would say that the CCTV system will be 85% as just a deterrent, 13% to determine who are leaving gargabe in the hallways and the remaining 2% for recording criminal activity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 28, 2005 Ok, the wiring seems good, since there is a budget, see how it goes. It should work. Just watch out for high voltage. Cameras are cosidered medium resolution, OEM, nothing special. You may want to look at something in the area of GE, Phillips, Sanyo, or Ganz, a little more $$$ but, there is a huge difference in video quality, as well as overall quality of the product. Sony is just the chip used, it takes alot more to make that chip work well. The price alone sais alot for the product. You get what you pay for in CCTV. In other words, it is a very low end camera. Even in a high cost, high quality camera lux is not definative. More than likely, it is 0.1 lux but still it does not really mean alot, in any camera. If it is exview though you can expect to get in the area of 0.1 lux, and sometimes lower. If there is a strict budget, then this seems okay. But for $14,000, I imagine that is mostly labour to run the cable?? Sounds like alot of labour .. That doesnt sound like a budget job to me, and im in a heavily inflated country (bahamas) Rory Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 28, 2005 Just read your update, if it is like you said, as mostly a deterrent, then those cameras are fine. Watch out for the warranty on them though, I stopped selling OEM cameras over 3 years ago for lots of different reasons .. got to excuse me, im the type that will still put a $1000 in a low risk are if I had the monnies, Im a performance freak and I love high quality video I tell my competition here (plumbers, electricians, etc) call me if you want the best video available. .. though I do have cheap BW bullets myself here, still they are Provideo, and I believe highly in brand names as they do matter alot when it comes to CCTV. ... Rory Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CraigVM62 0 Posted January 28, 2005 I do appreciate the fact that you lean towards and no doubt have worked with a great deal with higher end products in the industry. I had ordered one of these "OEM" cameras just to test it out. I have also recently purchased a couple other cameras "Toshiba IK-6400A and Honeywell "ultrak"474M" and did a low light "dare to compare" test. Even though the Toshiba and Honeywell cost 2 and 3 times as much and both utiiize the Day/Night feature, I found the OEM to maintain a usable image in a darker setting than the other two. I must say that I did like the On Screen Menu and customability of the Honeywell. Is that common with higher end cameras? All cableing was ran in dedicated conduits only shared with the alarm system cabling. I have been trying to read up on different problems people have with ground loop issues so I will be better educated if it becomes a problem. Wish you lived on this side of the pond... I am hoping to find a contractor that installs higher end CCTV stuff in this area to be taken in as a free apprentice. Would be more than happy to donate labor just so in return I could learn. I will do my best to do so by reading here aswell. Thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
qman 0 Posted January 28, 2005 hey craig, two things I sent you a PM, check it, and where are you from anyway? and I have been trying to presuade rory to come over here, but he doesn't like the 1 degree weather that we are having right now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 28, 2005 (edited) Hey, no prob, I also sell some low end productrs (eclipseCCTV.com) as down here, well our economy is pretty bad and alot of retailers and home users cannot afford the higher end products. As for Honeywell, they ARE OEM also. They just rename them. Toshiba is almost out of the CCTV business. Neither are considered very good anymore. As for Day Night .. An installation im working on currently, I have a GE kalatel KTC-2000DN (day Night Exview) a Panasonic (474) Day Night Wide Dynamic, and also a Toshiba 6400 which was left over from an "old" job. This is as far as Day Night Pro Cameras goes. Well Toshiba is not on the same league unfortunately, never has been. Nice laptops though GE Kalatel's. Low Low light, ill have to post some images to let them all see, nice product, and at $100 less a price from a month ago, worth it. Pano - What can I say - Can never go wrong with the Panasonic - has to be the best camera i have used - ugliest one - but darn they are sweet - day night Wide Dynamic - none other comes close - not as low light as the GE Kalatel - but better resonse to glare at night such as from car lights. Toshiba - very basic - nothing special - day color is not good. I should have some images by the weekend of these 3. I would have to say, Panasonic has the Best Day Night Camera. ExtremeCCTV has the Best Day Night Infrared Cameras - though cost alot more than Panasonic. If you are looking for a great LOW LIGHT day night camera, without Wide Dynamic. GE has a Great Exview one, that also can recognise the 1100nm IR spectrum response, found in the ExtremeCCTV invisible IR. As for OEM cameras, they generally do not have IR cut Filters, hence the low price. If it is as low as $80 then for sure it has no IR cut Filter, color, OR day Night. Any color camera will need an IR cut filter for a good daytime image. See this link for the need for an IR Cut Filter: http://www.cs.unc.edu/Research/stc/FAQs/Cameras_Lenses/IR%20Filter.htm Now for some Day Night Cameras with IR Cut Filters: Sanyo GE Kalatel Panasonic Bosch Phillips Speco Provideo (CVC-7706DNV only) Prices all range in the $350-400 range camera only. Now remeber though, I am a performance freak, and quality is my middle name ..so alot of others can get away with less than I am used to Rory Edited January 28, 2005 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 28, 2005 (edited) No, OSM is not that common with cameras, yet. It is however becoming popular now, but I have found the cameras without it, to have a better video quality. Wide Dynamic Cameras however, are using it now. Still I dont perosnally like it as much, as they "try" to make it too easy, while it still requires some knowledge. This includes the GE wide dynamic also. All Zoom cameras have it though...OEM or otherwise. Rory Edited January 28, 2005 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 28, 2005 hey craig, two things I sent you a PM, check it, and where are you from anyway? and I have been trying to presuade rory to come over here, but he doesn't like the 1 degree weather that we are having right now dude ill be there in a flash yah know ..! Just with all the new security things in the US ..they dont let us in as easy now .. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
qman 0 Posted January 28, 2005 I hear you man. You know, I was checking around for other 32 CH DVR"S, and I have seen some good ones, but damm, GE has a nice one coming out, but for 12K. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 28, 2005 GE has one coming out?? I know they have been making matrix for years, they have a mux matrix that expands to 32 channels, been out for years, basically a 32 channel mux, and they have a 16 channel matrix DVR that costs like $8K for a 160GB, havent heard anything yet on the 32 channel though ... any links? Rory Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 28, 2005 HERMIN, I promise ill check that 24VAC run out tomorrow ... was busy getting it all working today, plus running alarm wires .. by this weekend ill have an IP for you to check it all out, 3 stores, 2 buildings, all on 1 16channel DVR, and a bunch of photos ... Rory Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CraigVM62 0 Posted January 28, 2005 At this point I will have my fingers crossed that all works out. Customer is a good friend and I hope to keep it that way. To work down in tropical weather ... I don't think I could call it work "Island Envy" I am up in the pacific northwest, land of the never ending umbrella Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
