Another Fiber Question/PTZ Over Fiber?

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Got a potential customer who has a large building and a need/want for 8 PTZ Cameras.

 

He is not opposed to IP Cameras just to make that part clear.

 

When he built the place he ran fiber to each location where he expected to put a PTZ camera. There is power available at each location. Going the analog way I need to run each video signal back to a control room over the fiber cable and I wonder if the PTZ control can be made to run over fiber as well?

 

I am so green with this you have no idea and I have no idea where to start. There must some kind of converter requirement at each camera location to get video and data signals converted to optical and in the control room maybe some kind of fiber hub? I've read about a possible termination kit required also?

 

If they are analog cameras I assume a regular DVR would be fine?

 

Don't ask why he put fiber. THis is something the guy did when he built the place.

 

Thanks

[Soundy 1]

Wow... he musta got a bulk deal on the fiber, because it seems to me running that would be far more expensive up front that running copper... and now he's looking at a ton more for the necessary hardware.

 

Yes, you'd need some sort of transceiver setup - you can't just have one end send and the other receive. The DVR end would have to transmit the control signal and receive the video; the camera end would then receive the control and transmit the video.

 

Fiber is rare enough for networking that the hardware for it is still pretty expensive (no economy of scale there yet); for this purpose, I'd imagine it's even more expensive - I'm sure someone's build something to make this possible, but I've never heard of it being done this way, so I'm guessing it's not that common and thus such hardware would be rare and accordingly expensive.

 

Hmm, well, I googled "serial over fiber" and got a LOT of hits... but so far nothing (at least in one box) that will do serial AND video over fiber. These guys might have something - http://www.phasebridge.com/fiber_optics - but nothing I could see in a cursory scan.

 

Ah, here's something.... googled "ptz and video over fiber" and got this: http://www.versitron.com/fiber_optic_video_transmission.html

 

No prices on any of these, as they're manufacturer sites, but again, I'd expect it to be expensive.... most of these, the idea is to take a number of signals (multiple cameras, etc.) and move them over long distances (talking KILOMETERS here)... it's the kind of thing you'd normally use where you have to go beyond the range of ethernet (100m) and standard RS-422/485. And of course, you'd need a pair for every camera (or one for each camera and some sort of hub or multiplexor at the DVR end)... it could add up fast.

 

I'm thinking it would probably be cheaper to go with IP cameras, as fiber-based ethernet gear is probably cheaper and more readily available... but that's just a guess too. Even most switches that have fiber support are usually 16+ ethernet and one or two fiber uplink ports.

 

Or it might be cheaper and easier to just re-wire with standard copper Use the fiber to fish through some Cat-5e and use cheap and readily-available baluns to send video and serial (and power, if you want) over that

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Ya no idea who put the idea in this guys head that he should wire the place with fiber. He states the longest run would be about 1000' but he definitely wants 8 PTZ cameras.

 

So if I go IP, I do agree that it may be more common to see this standard pushed through fiber than trying to get analog over that. I figure if this guy can afford the fiber than we might as well get him some good PTZ cameras. What are some good IP PTZ cameras? Then the other question is finding the equipment to get control and video over fiber. I doubt he will want to re-wire the place but I could entertain that idea with him.

 

Before I get to that level I need some king of idea of what is needed to get it done over fiber and the costs associated with that. Before I tell him I'll make sure we have an ambulance on standby

 

Thanks for the reply and hopefully I can keep the thread going with ideas because I'm really not sure about this one. The ideas will definitely help me to figure this one out.

[Soundy 1]

Wow... 1000', maybe fiber WAS a good idea. Video over UTP using active baluns would cover that, but that's pushing it for coax, and for RS-485. Definitely well beyond the range of 10/100 ethernet.

 

Well, I guess the first place to start would be with some of the manufacturers listed above. Googling "ptz and video over fiber" will get you even more. I've found with this type of thing, it's usually best to actually contact the mfr. and describe your specific needs, and see what they can suggest... believe it or not, sometimes the sales guys actually have a clue What you'd probably be looking for is a video-and-serial-over-fiber solution with a transceiver for the camera end, and a hub or mux of some sort for the DVR end (would likely be cheaper than a stack of individual xcvrs, and definitely cleaner).

 

Or if you do go with IP cams, you'd want a single-channel fiber transceiver for the camera end, and a fiber hub/switch at the DVR... going straight to somewhere like Cisco might be the trick there.

 

As for PTZ IP cams, I think Axis makes some... I deal mostly with IQEye cameras and I'm not aware of a PTZ model in their lineup. I know D-Link has a few consumer-grade models, but with what he's laid out so far, that would make about as much sense as putting 13" steelies with 155/80R13 summer tires on an F1 car... you know, just to save money

 

As far as software, you might look at a Vigil system from 3xlogic - they make NVRs and hybrid DVR/NVR systems with standard PTZ support, and may also have support for IP PTZs (another good time to talk to one of their sales guys), and if not, they're usually pretty good with updating their software to support new stuff.

[survtech 0]

There are a number of companies who make 2-way fiber transmission systems for CCTV:

 

Versitron - http://www.versitron.com/cctv_systems.html

 

GE Security - http://www.gesecurity.com/portal/site/GESecurity/menuitem.f76d98ccce4cabed5efa421766030730?selectedID=265&seriesyn=false&t=prod&leafNode=false

 

Optelecom - http://www.optelecom.com/

 

American Fibertek - http://www.americanfibertek.com/

 

Pelco - http://www.pelco.com/products/default.aspx?id=822

 

AMG (UK) - http://www.amgsystems.co.uk/

 

... and many others. Just do a web search for "CCTV fiber transmission".

 

Also, 1000 ft. is not pushing it for RS-485 over twisted-pair. With CAT-5, RS-485 can be run up to 4000 ft..

[Soundy 1]

There are a number of companies who make 2-way fiber transmission systems for CCTV:

 

Yes, but the catch here is, do they also include serial control?

 

Also, 1000 ft. is not pushing it for RS-485 over twisted-pair. With CAT-5, RS-485 can be run up to 4000 ft..

 

Good to know... I thought in retrospect that 1000' seemed a bit too low.

[survtech 0]

There are a number of companies who make 2-way fiber transmission systems for CCTV:

 

Yes, but the catch here is, do they also include serial control?

That's the point of 2-way.

[Soundy 1]

Still has to support the appropriate serial protocol.

[aoshifiber 0]

i just saw this topic, yeah, you need a 1V1D transmitter/receiver for the transmission(video and ptz controll), pls check the diagram for details, coz they already have fiber connector at every site, it will be very easy for this system.

[Soundy 1]

BTW, if you should decide to go with IP cameras in any of the locations, this may be of interest:

http://www.dotworkz.com/about_dotworkz/company_news.asp?details_n_id=80

[survtech 0]

Still has to support the appropriate serial protocol.

Not really. That's like saying a USB cable can only support html or ascii data. Data is data. All it has to do is transmit and receive it as serial data for RS-xxx. The protocol has nothing to do with it.

[Soundy 1]

Okay, here's the point: how do you get the data in and out of the converters? For serial, it has to have serial ports of some sort, that you can connect to the cameras and the DVRs or PTZ controllers.

 

All I'm saying is, when shopping, MAKE SURE THE DEVICE YOU CHOOSE HAS ALL THE REQUIRED CONNECTIONS FOR YOUR PURPOSE.

[survtech 0]

Okay, here's the point: how do you get the data in and out of the converters? For serial, it has to have serial ports of some sort, that you can connect to the cameras and the DVRs or PTZ controllers.

 

All I'm saying is, when shopping, MAKE SURE THE DEVICE YOU CHOOSE HAS ALL THE REQUIRED CONNECTIONS FOR YOUR PURPOSE.

Try the links. Each company has models that have serial data ports - most are bidirectional.

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Thanks for all the links and info. I contacted Versitron the other day and they had some questions I had to get answers for. They asked if the fiber was multi-mode or single-mode fiber and I wasn't sure. The rep I spoke to said it is different equipment for each type and prices are different as well.

 

I am waiting for an answer from the customer.

 

There is another question the customer was asking. He asked if there was a way to place the PC based DVR in one building and control it from another. He is basically wondering if we can hook up a keyboard, mouse and the PTZ controller in a different location than the DVR. The separate location is connected via fiber to where the DVR is located.

 

They will have a security guard posted there watching the cameras.

[survtech 0]

There are a number of ways to control one PC on a network from another PC on the same network. The easiest and cheapest method is to enable Remote Desktop on the PC you want to control. Do that by right-clicking on My Computer, click on Properties and click on Remote (in XP). Check "Allow users to connect remotely to this computer".

 

At the computer that you want to control from, click Start - Run and type mmc . When the console pops up, click File - Add/Remove Snap-in, click on Computer Management, click Add, click Another Computer, type its name or IP Address, then click Finish.

 

Here is a link to a Microsoft tech note that also shows another way to enable Remote Desktop: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/mobility/default.mspx

 

You can also use a program like PCAnywhere and others.

Edited December 18, 2008 by Guest

[Soundy 1]

I've done that over Cat-5e (remote KVM) using devices from NTI - got a KVM switching between two machines, and a KVM extender that then allows selectable local and remote control.

 

Now in this particular case, although it's using Cat-5e, it's NOT a network connection... but there are "networkable" solutions available as well, that you could use over the fiber with the networking you're already planning to install. Or you may be able to find fiber transceivers that include this capability as well as the network, video and serial signals.

 

Check with NTI first; I've found them very helpful. http://www.networktechinc.com/

[Soundy 1]

At the computer that you want to control from, click Start - Run and type mmc . When the console pops up, click File - Add/Remove Snap-in, click on Computer Management, click Add, click Another Computer, type its name, then click Finish.

 

Hmm, that gives you the computer management... where's the Remote Desktop?

 

Just click Start -> Run, type MSTSC, and hit Enter.

 

Or look in Start -> Programs -> Accessories -> Remote Desktop Connection.

 

All does the same thing - runs the Terminal Services Client. From there you enter the name or IP of the computer you want to control.

 

You can also use a program like PCAnywhere and others.

 

Remote Administrator is excellent for this as well... or if you want a freeware solution, there are numerous implementations of VNC (I like UltraVNC, myself - www.uvnc.com)

[survtech 0]

Hmm, that gives you the computer management... where's the Remote Desktop?

 

Just click Start -> Run, type MSTSC, and hit Enter.

You still have to enable Remote Desktop on the computer that you want to control or Remote Desktop will not find it.

 

I usually put a shortcut for Remote Desktop on the controlling computer's desktop.

[Soundy 1]

Hmm, that gives you the computer management... where's the Remote Desktop?

 

Just click Start -> Run, type MSTSC, and hit Enter.

You still have to enable Remote Desktop on the computer that you want to control or Remote Desktop will not find it.

 

Yeah, you covered that in the first paragraph...

 

The Computer Management console lets you MANAGE the remote machine from your local one, but there's nothing there that gives you the Remote Desktop. It's not necessary to create a Computer Management connection to use the Remote Desktop.

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Thanks....

 

So this guard station most likely need more than one monitor for the 8 PTZ's. So if they only have to contend with 8 PTZ's then 4 PTZ's on one monitor and the other 4 on another monitor. Would this entail a two spot monitor DVR? Assuming that each spot monitor can be assigned each 4 cameras.

 

So remotely he would have a PTZ controller, and two monitors. Am I missing something in the guard room that I should be thinking about besides these elements?

 

Customer states that he doesn't really have a budget for this but does have a wish list of features. Still contemplating which path to go, analog or ip cameras. I'm thinking this whole process may be better served over IP.

 

Remote over UVNC is what I typically use but I don't get video to come through the remote connection. I assume if the guard has to search through video on the DVR that he would have to leave his station and go to the DVR location?

[jeromephone 6]

how mqny fibers to each location ? if you have 2 pair to each you could run the control seperat from the image. would be costly however

[3RDIGLBL 0]

how mqny fibers to each location ? if you have 2 pair to each you could run the control seperat from the image. would be costly however

 

There is one cable to each location.

[aoshifiber 0]

how mqny fibers to each location ? if you have 2 pair to each you could run the control seperat from the image. would be costly however

 

There is one cable to each location.

 

As i know, one fiber can run more than 64channal video/data/audio, so i think it's enough

[thewireguys 3]

I would go IP. Use some Zyxel Media converters Axis 233d PTZs and IPConfigure for NVR software.

 

 

There is another question the customer was asking. He asked if there was a way to place the PC based DVR in one building and control it from another. He is basically wondering if we can hook up a keyboard, mouse and the PTZ controller in a different location than the DVR. The separate location is connected via fiber to where the DVR is located.

 

This will be very easy with IPconfigure. You can control the software from any internet browser. No need for KVMs , RDP or VNC.

 

So remotely he would have a PTZ controller, and two monitors. Am I missing something in the guard room that I should be thinking about besides these elements?

 

Install a computer with dual monitors in the guard station. I think this install will be a lot simpler with a IP setup.

 

I can show you a demo of IPconfigure if you would like.

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Thanks for all the great advice and suggestions. I will be digging deeper into the suggestions mentioned here.

 

I'll post back with what we've decided to do.

 

Thanks thewireguys, I will take you up on your offer at some point.