Lag screws or bolts for outdoor camera mounts

[cctv_seeker 0]

I had purchased some nuts and bolts for installing several Panasonic WV-CS954 cameras outdoor on the 2nd floor soffit. When the CCTV "professional" installers arrived, they were reluctant to install camera mounts with bolts because of the difficulty of reaching the bolts from the attic. Instead they recommended lag screws. Are lag screws commonly used for outdoor mounts? My cameras still have not been mounted because the one day installation job that was orignally quoted has now become a two day job because of trips to hardware stores to acquire lag screws and RJ12 connectors which the "professional" installers did not have, providing the professional installers with the appropriate socket wrenches, small screwdrivers and stud finder, and assisting the professional installers with the interpretation of manuals (Note: All installation/operators manuals for all equipment had already been emailed to CCTV installers over 1 week before the installation date.) Should I insist on bolts for the outdoor camera mounts because they are the standard fasteners used in top quality installations of outdoor cameras?

[Soundy 1]

Unless there's a real concern about people trying to take these cameras down, or they're just really heavy, I'd just use the appropriate length of wood, metal, or deck screws, probably about #10 size screws, with washers if necessary.

[scorpion 0]

It will be easy to find someone to install third party equipment.

 

What will be hard to do is to get someone to come back out when you have problems with the equipment. They will come back to fix the wiring, or to fix something related to the install, but they will not come out to help you "relearn the menu" because the police are standing there wanting the video footage, and you are having problems navigating the menu, or problems creating a backup to hand to them.

 

You may have to ask what it would cost to provide support. That is more valuable then the install itself.

 

I would try to find someone who can provide the equipment at a budget more to your likeing. The reason it is so expensive it that we are required to carry insurance, and workmans comp (brutally expensive).

 

Plus for every install you have to buy caulk, new drill bits, low voltage trim rings, blank wall plate with a hole for the wires to come out of, 9/16 staples, drywall screws, concrete screws, butt splices, electrical tape, plastic anchors, and zip ties. This will cost big $ easy without trying!

 

A two story house is not for the light hearted. You really have to know some construction techniques, and you have to have real world experience to run wires.

 

For hidden wire installs, and not wrapping wires around a two story house then you will have to remove can lights on the first floor, and use rods to pull the wire to where it needs to go. You need to know where closets are on the first floor, and on the second floor so that you can run wires up, (or down). What lines up between the floors. Is there an AC closet that is above dead space (behind wall niches ect), or a pantry?

 

Do not mount cameras on the roofline, and have them look down. You will only see the bald spot on your crook! Bring them down, and run the wires right!

 

For every group of installers there will be the one that gives the other a black eye. Be very careful, and do due diligence. I would even recommend having a quick background check performed on the installer who agrees to install third party equipment.

 

Protect yourself! Trust no one! That includes me! Get it in writing what he will install, and how he will install it. Write down what you will be responcible for, and what he will be responcible for. If you cannot afford an attorney then at least go to your bank and have them notorize the paper, and have both of you sign it. This will help you in small claims court.

 

What do you think?

 

 

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=91418&highlight=#91418

 

 

What is he charging you for this install? I find it interesting that he does not have his own hardware, bolt, and other needed items!

[cctv_seeker 0]

The CCTV installer is charging $870 for the installation. On the original quote was a list of equipment I was responsible for acquiring. I asked if this list of equipment were the only things I needed for a complete CCTV installation and was told that the installation charge would cover labor, cables and anything not on the list. After confirming the list of items I needed to acquire was complete, I purchased all the equipment listed. To assist the installer with a quick installation I found all the operators/installation manuals in PDF form and emailed them the head of the CCTV company over a week before the installation. I assumed whoever was performing the installation would take the opportunity to study the installation instructions to get acquainted with any proprietary wiring or installation techniques required for Panasonic cameras.

 

When the two installers began working, it became clear to me they had not installed many CCTV systems with the assistance they required in terms of basic tools I had to provide and interpretation of the installation instructions. I couldn't believe they did not have a step ladder for accessing the attic, socket wrenches, stud finder, small screw driver for working with the alarm connectors, lag screws, did not have or heard of BNC L connectors, did not have RJ-12 connectors or Molex 4 pin power interconnects. It took several attemps for them to drill through an interior wall top plate after drilling a hole at a 45 degree incline that created a 1 inch hole that went through the ceiling plaster and drywall. After seven hours the only tasks they completed was pulling 8 lines from the room that will house the DVR through the attic which now hang exposed to the elements from the two south facing corners of the 2nd floor soffit. For two hours after sunset, they connected 4 BNC lines to the Speco 4TN300 DVR, 2 BNC lines to the Panasonic WJ-MP204C multiplexor, alarm input and output lines to the DVR and the power lines for the Panasonic WV-CS954 cameras. The 2 Panasonic WV-CS954 cameras with their POD7CWN camera outdoor housings, a WV-CU360C controller, APC 1500watt UPS and the Samsung monitor still remain in boxes.

 

When I contacted the CCTV installers' home office to inform them the job would not be completed in the single day I was quoted, I was told that because I did not provide 2 Molex power connectors for the camera housing heater/blowers, 2 RJ-12 connectors for data lines I would be charged an addition $125 trip charge to complete this CCTV installation on a future date.

[Soundy 1]

What a horror story!

 

In fairness to the installers, the power molex connectors should normally be included with the cameras (I would expect, anyway). The data connectors, maybe not, but as an installer, that's the sort of thing I'd keep on hand, and things like that are normally built into the cost of the job.

 

But $125?? Either they're marking up the connectors about 1000%, or they're charging you for the time for BOTH installers to go pick them up (which is retarded; one could just as easily stay and keep working while the other goes shopping), or the parts depot is two hours away...

 

Hey, it's easy to make up for, though: hand them a bill for $125 for the repair of your drywall and plaster. At this point, they're probably operating at a loss for all the extra labour time (or if not, they're close to it).

[cctv_seeker 0]

What a horror story!

 

In fairness to the installers, the power molex connectors should normally be included with the cameras (I would expect, anyway). The data connectors, maybe not, but as an installer, that's the sort of thing I'd keep on hand, and things like that are normally built into the cost of the job.

 

 

Panasonic did provide one power connector with each of the WV-CS954 cameras, but they did not provide a second power connector to connect the sparate power input for the H&B and camera that are in the POD7CWN camera housing.

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/cctv/SpecSheets/POD7CN_POD7CWN.pdf

 

I was able to order 2 Molex power connectors from Panasonic the next day. They arrived the following day without the female pin inserts.

 

I now am waiting for delivering of the Molex 18-22 Gauge Pins .093" from PartsExpress.com.

 

Since the installer did not have RJ-12 connectors I had to place another order with CablesToGo to obtain these connectors.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Guest

[Sawbones 0]

Good lord... what an installation nightmare.

 

On the good side, it illustrates that it helps to know what you're doing, and be able to do your own job if necessary... if only to guide those who may have bitten off more than they can chew.

[scorpion 0]

Do not have then come back!!!!!

 

There is something very wrong in their approach!

 

I was reading too many red flags between your lines, but simple hand tools is a must for any installer.

 

They should have a parts bin with drywall screws concrete screws, lag bolts, and various plastic anchors ect.

 

They should have a parts bin with BNC to RCA adapters, RCA to BNC adapters, Female to Female BNC adapters, power pigtails, spools of connection wire (jumpers ect), caulk, new drill bits, low voltage trim rings, blank wall plate with a hole for the wires to come out of, 9/16 staples, drywall screws, concrete screws, butt splices, electrical tape, plastic anchors, and zip ties.

 

I never make drywall mistakes (Ha! Ha! I hope you believe that one)!

 

I carry drywall compound, tape, and tools to spread it. It is more that people change things duing an install, and I want to leave the job as I found it.

 

There is something very wrong about this company. If they did a proper site survey, and you were the cause to delay the installation then it is very fair for them to charge you that fee.

 

The installation is the easy part. Tweaking, and setting everything when the equipment is operational requires an experienced CCTV guy. Get rid of the ones you have.

 

I could see where they send out "attic rats", and then the CCTV master shows up on site as the last wire is being plugged in, and that is OK, but these guys do not install CCTV, and they may not have the insight to make a proper correction.

 

I find things all the time that look good on paper, but then when you look at the site errrr maybe it would be better if........

 

For a site survey I would mount a battery operated monitor to a camera and simulate where the cameras are to be mounted to assure the home owner that where they thought they wanted the cameras are where they are truely going to want them once they see the video. This corrects a lot of mistakes before you actually get to the installation point.

 

I am really sorry to hear about these guys. I cannot give them a bad rap as they are not CCTV installers. If they were CCTV installers with this behaviour then I would be embarressed myself even though I am not the installer.

 

Hire some new guy, and do not pay them a dime. Whip out the contract. They get paid for what they complete. The did not complete, and they are fired. I may give the guy that showed up $50.00, but the company needs to reevaluate what they qualify themselves to install.

[Sawbones 0]

Scorpion is exactly right.

 

I had my first 4-camera system installed, and I have hired guys to crawl around in my attic and run the cables, but from that point on I've done everything myself. It helps that I'm a ham radio and networking geek, but even so, CCTV was new to me.

 

It's been quite an education.

 

These "installers" should have all sorts of installation "stuff"... sundries like splices, screws, plugs, wires, drill-bits, fiberglass fish-rods and tapes... it sounds like they didn't even have the right tools, and may have been picked up at the "day labor" place downtown.

 

I think I'd pick a different crew next go-round.

[cctv_seeker 0]

They did have some gear - the fiberglass push rods, tape, long drill bits, compression BNC connectors and compression connector tool. They did not have a saw to cut an opening in the drywall to pull the CCTV cables through the interior wall. Nor did they have cover plates to cover the hole in the drywall they made with a knife and drill. They also did not have the drywall compound to fix the hole they accidentally created in the ceiling.

 

Since the two installers had worked from 10:30AM - 7:30PM, I felt it was fair to pay them a portion of the contracted price. They had run the cables through the attic to the location where the cameras should be mounted, installed the Pelco CCTV security box (alas with only three screws because they lacked a stud finder), and completed most of the CCTV connections inside. They did promise to repair the accidental damage to the drywall and ceiling.

 

I expect they should complete the drywall/ceiling repair and the remaining CCTV installation tasks for the balance of the quoted price - $270. But I do not feel I should be penalized by incurring a $125 trip charge because they did not complete the installation in the single trip they had quoted. For them to claim the installation could not be completed because I did not provide all the installation connectors is unbelievable! I had sent all installation instructions more than a week before the installation date. If they had reviewed the instructions and found items which they did not have, they could of called me. I would have acquired the parts they needed if the "professional" CCTV installers had given me this information. With the amount of time that was spent reviewing the instruction manuals the day of installation, it was apparent the installers scarcely but glanced at the manuals I had sent.

 

I had checked several of the references of the CCTV installation company rep who provided the original quote. When I found out on the day of installation that different people were being sent to complete the installation, I placed a 2nd phone call to obtain the last names of the crew that was being sent. I should have cancelled the installation when I received a phone call from the company scheduler berating me for requesting the last names of the crew! I explained I only requested their full names for a background check and was told that the job scheduler was trying to "protect" the safety of their crews!

 

Hind sight is always 20/20. I just hope I can finally complete this CCTV installation after which I will contact Panasonic to obtain the contact info of an approved Panasonic CCTV service center.

[scorpion 0]

Thank you for posting all of this information! I believe this will help out the next person after they read this post.

 

I think you are going to save a lot of people a lot of money, or a lot of heartache.

 

Maybe they should send you 10% on what they save by taking your examples, and protecting themselves.

 

Again, thanks for the heads up.

[normicgander 0]

Am I understanding this correctly:

 

You purchased the cameras etc. and then hired a CCTV company to install them.

 

Did they perform a site survey and inspect the camera to be installed prior to the install?

 

The installer should purchase hardware/fasteners and other required materials. Often it listed in the quote as Misc. hardware and includes cable management supplies, labels, fasteners, sealants etc.

[cctv_seeker 0]

Am I understanding this correctly:

 

You purchased the cameras etc. and then hired a CCTV company to install them.

 

Did they perform a site survey and inspect the camera to be installed prior to the install?

 

The installer should purchase hardware/fasteners and other required materials. Often it listed in the quote as Misc. hardware and includes cable management supplies, labels, fasteners, sealants etc.

 

Yes. I purchased the cameras, etc. after discussing with the CCTV company to determine what equipment required. The company sent a representative who only glanced at webpage displaying camera equipment, glanced at the camera mount locations, and asked which second floor room would be used to locate the DVR. No measurements were taken with a tape measure; no specific locations were identified for DVR placement. No information was provided to me as to additional fasteners, supplies, labels, sealants would be required. Two weeks before the installation date I emailed the company all operator/installation manuals as PDF files assuming I would be notified if any unexpected equipment/fasteners were needed.

 

Two installers showed up on the date of installation. I changed the DVR installation to an adjacent room against the common interior wall between the original room that was quoted and the room that facilitated the Ethernet connection to a WIFI router. I also requested that they mount a Pelco security DVR enclosure on the wall. The DVR enclosure was prefabricated. I provided the fasteners for mounting the enclosure on the wall and had removed one of the shelves prior to installation date to ensure sufficient vertical clearance was available for DVR and multiplexer. The additional installation tasks they provided for the DVR enclosure were 1. Install shelf that would provide 8 inches of vertical clearance for the DVR and the multiplexer with 4 screws and 2. Hang the enclosure on wall studs using 3 screws. I was surprised that the two installers could not complete the installation after 7 hours.

 

I paid the installation company $600 out of the original $870 quoted price and arranged a second installation date to complete the job. I was told over the phone that the final payment would be $270. On the second installation date, one installer shows up with a bill for $270 plus a bill to complete payment for first installation date and a bill for $990 to complete installation and charge for "3 hours of labor to mount Pelco enclosure, change in location in DVR, two 10 mile round trips to Radio Shack made on the first installation date to acquire RJ12 connectors and 2 power connectors. At this point, realizing that 1. This company was trying to recoup costs for bidding on a job they were not qualified to complete, 2. The cost of selecting a different company to complete the installation of this job would be high because no wiring labels were used and there were no connection or wiring diagrams, I negotiated a price of $770 to complete the CCTV installation on this second installation date. I was promised all installation tasks would be completed and I would be provided instruction on operation of DVR and cameras.

 

After 7 hours, the CCTV installation was still not completed. The cameras were finally mounted outside but they were completely inoperable via the controller and no video was visible on the XVGA monitor. This time I did not provide any portion of $770 contracted price until the CCTV system was completely functional.

 

The next weekend I worked on the BNC cable connections and data connector between the controller and multiplexer. After replacing the computer modem RJ-12 wire used between the controller and multiplexer with the data line provided by Panasonic and replacing the coax mini-T L connectors with straight BNC compression connectors, I was able to get controller and video working. Unfortunately the string of LEDs in the power supply still indicate a wiring problem exists in the heater/blower power lines, because several of the LEDs shut off within 30 secs of powering up the CCTV system. I contacted the installation company with the good and bad news, requesting another installation date before I would be willing to pay the final $770.

 

I am still waiting for a third installation date. Since contacting the installation company, I have replaced connectors and cables used for the DVR so that the DVR can be placed in the cramped quarters of the Pelco enclosure - 2 of the coax connectors were replaced with right angle RG59 coax connectors from L-com.com, and the main monitor VGA cable was replaced with an S-video cable.

 

When the temperature outside dropped below the 40 degree spec limits for the cameras I started to see intermittent ghosting patterns on the video (1-2 vertical color bands in each camera's real-time frame, a ghost of the 2nd camera's video capture frozen on the 1st camera's real-time video frame.) I have powered down the entire system until the third installation date can establish working heaters for both cameras.

[Soundy 1]

Yikes, what a nightmare! I feel for ya man - if I ran my own company I'd be looking for a way to come up and finish the job for ya. I'd be worried at this point that it's gonna take these clowns even longer than they're billing you for to finish it up, and they'll want to bill you even more... and it probably still won't be working right.

 

Seriously, they're trying to bill you for TWO parts trips... to the SAME store... how is it your fault if they can't figure out everything they need BEFORE they make ONE trip? And RADIO SHACK? Great, they're paying twice what they should for that stuff. What a gong show!

 

-40... ouch, where are you located?

[cctv_seeker 0]

When, (or should I say if), I finally get this CCTV system installed, I will not be calling this company again to expand the CCTV system with additional cameras or for maintenance issues. I have contacted Panasonic for references of CCTV salesmen/installers in SW Ohio who are qualified to service Panasonic equipment. Panasonic was able to provide the phone numbers of two firms that sell AND install Panasonic CCTV equipment. I would expect any of these two professional firms will be able to provide a wiring diagram and label the cables for future reference. I would combine this documentation task with any upcoming request to add additional cameras or service this CCTV system.