DVR w/ web access in a NEMA box?

[Tesseract 0]

Hey all - first post here.

 

An property manager of apartment complexes asked me to do some research on the equipment needed to set up a good quality surveillance system (to monitor 4 pedestrian and 2 vehicle gates). I'll post my other questions in the relevant forum but for now I am trying to find a decent DVR for up to 8 cameras. One problem, though, is that there isn't a maintenance room or the like to put the DVR in so I need to find one that can be mounted inside of a NEMA 4X (plastic, weatherproof) box on the outside of one of the buildings.

 

I have found two "wall mount" DVRs, the Neugent SP-3008 and the Shuttle RO-RS-1240RH. Unfortunately, I don't know much about either company and it appears that the Neugent is not available in the US.

 

Given that the DVR will be mounted in a box outside it will only be accessed through the internet and it will be a big pain in the posterior to "reboot" it if it locks up, gets a virus or something, so high reliability is a requirement. I was thinking that a Linux based system would have the edge in that department??

 

Finally, do I have to get a wall mount type of DVR or could I mount a "regular" DVR on its side/vertically?

 

Thanks for any suggestions!

[scorpion 0]

CachecreekCCTV is the man when it come to outside DVRs in enclosures!

 

You may not be able to PM him, so I took the liberty of doing so on your behalf, and I sent him the link to your post.

 

Hopefully he can steer you in the right direction.

 

Just stand by until he checks his email to get this message.

[Tesseract 0]

Thanks, scorpion. You are just across the state from me (I'm in Tampa - I suppose I should update my profile).

 

I am also contemplating going with all IP cameras and using a network video recorder, hopefully he can help with that type of setup as well.

[shoreviewsecurity 0]

Hi and Welcome to the Forum...

 

I usually mount my DVR's on walls in a vertical fashion. I simply drill a few holes in the bottom of the DVR and screw it to what ever I am mounting it to. This way, no shelving is required and it is a much cleaner installation.

 

My concern regarding your situation is two fold. First, not knowing where you are located, temperature and ventilation concerns me. In the summer and depending upon your southern exposure, it will cook. Even without direct sunlight, it will generate its' own heat as well. On the flip side, they do need to operate above 32F. I would assume power is not an issue?

 

Certainly, the boxes you are considering using are tough enough to withstand vandalism. In my area and living a stones throw from the Atlantic Ocean, my other concern would be one of moisture regardless of how tight the seal was but that again falls into the DVR's ability to breath. If you go ahead and install in this environment, it will work but you will most certainly shorten the life of the DVR. Humidity will need to be considered as well.

 

I know that's what you did not want to hear but as you mention, you have no other alternative. I guess the bottom line is your climate and what you figure the average temperature will be in the enclosure. Our DVR's are rated from 32 to 131 degrees. But I would have to say; running anything at either extreme will not be good.

 

Others may be able to shed a different light on this subject and have a solution for you.

 

Hope this helped??

 

Thanks

 

Mike

[Tesseract 0]

Hey Mike - thanks for chiming in.

 

Fortunately, the wall I can mount the box on faces north and is completely shaded by a mature oak tree so it receives no direct sunlight. Another good thing is power is available on this wall, along with internet access (cable tv distribution).

 

That said, after reading through lots of posts here and talking with Charlie at Wireless Network Products I am considering going with IP cameras and a Network Video Recorder instead of analog cameras and a DVR... So many choices!

[griffonsystems 0]

check out mobotix - megapixel ip

no need for housing for cameras all are ip65 rated for outdoor - they put them on weather towers in alaska

 

they can stream right to a nas so no need for a nvr or application server just a storage server and all the cameras are poe

 

ive started installing them this year and im hooked

 

pg

[shoreviewsecurity 0]

Your welcome

 

Good Luck with your project

[Tesseract 0]

check out mobotix ..

they can stream right to a nas so no need for a nvr or application server just a storage server and all the cameras are poe

 

They are pricey and they are hideous, but they do have some compelling features like a built-in DVR and PIR motion detector. What would be a good storage server to use with them (6 cameras total)?

[cachecreekcctv 0]

Hey Scorpion,

 

Got your message, just couldn't respond until now. Most DVR's are not designed (my opinion) to be anywhere , but on a shelf, in nice cool office. When you put them outdoors, etc. you really need to protect them. I have taken my Avermedias and put them in Hubbell ( Nema 4X) enclosures. I just had to "modify" the enclosure to insure proper airflow ( heat distribution). I have also taken all the motherboards, drives, power supply, etc. out of a DVR, and installed it in a smaller Fiberglass Hubbell enclosure, just to keep the size down. Anytime you install a DVR outdoors, I would make sure my enclosure is at least a NEMA 4X rating. Then use Myers Hubs for all connections to the enclosure. This insures the most "water-tight" consistency. I have special "vents" for my outdoor panels, which are Stainless/Brass, that thread into these Myers Hubs. I should have begun my letter here, by saying that I am an Industrial Electrician by trade. Mostly 480 VAC 3-PH equipment ( industry standard), so I know a little about electrical enclosures. I build them quite often. I am not an Engineer, as I never finished any sort of schooling, other than the U.S. Army, where I received Special High Intensity Training quite often. (That was a joke, read the first letter of each word). Anyway, I would use only a Nema 4X enclosure outdoors in the Sun, and possibly a Fiberglass Nema 4X enclosure if not in the Sun. Just remember Myers Hubs, Stainless Vents,and Cable Grip Bushings, and you will keep your enclosure pretty water-tight. Any help/suggestions please ask again. Everytime I try to attach a photo here on this forum, I get an "error" message, so I gave up.

[scorpion 0]

The door to my office in the Army had a sign:

 

Subconscious

Level

Energy

Evaluation

Program

 

Do not disturb!

[Tesseract 0]

... Anytime you install a DVR outdoors, I would make sure my enclosure is at least a NEMA 4X rating. Then use Myers Hubs for all connections to the enclosure. This insures the most "water-tight" consistency. I have special "vents" for my outdoor panels, which are Stainless/Brass, that thread into these Myers Hubs. I should have begun my letter here, by saying that I am an Industrial Electrician by trade. ..

 

Excellent plan, cachecreekcctv (and not just because it was the direction I was going, anyway ).

 

Fortunately, the box containing the DVR (or NVR), etc., will be mounted on a wall that faces North and is shaded by a huge oak tree so at least I don't have to worry about solar heat gain. On the downside, it regularly hits 95F here anyway.

 

On a side note, I can personally attest to keeping electronics equipment out of the sun! In my first year of college I worked for an access control company. One of their clients was FPL (now Progress Energy) and one of the sites was an automatic "peaker" power plant - one that runs on natural gas and kicks on when needed to supply peak power demands. They put the control box with the computer and card reader right at the main gate... out in the open, mounted on a post, for the sun in all its Florida glory to shine upon. Everyday around 1-2pm the system would start glitching - reporting door alarms, randomly operating the gate and door locks, etc. Since I was the FNG, and a smart-a$$ engineering student to boot, the lead tech thought it would be hilarious to send me out there to fix it, as everyone else, including the owner, had been out there and all the only solution they came up with was to replace the Westinghouse-Schlage "brain" every couple of months.

 

Of course, the problem was the temperature - I measured 140F inside the cabinet at 1pm on the day they sent me out there. And because I was an engineering student with little practical experience at that point, I of course came up with a somewhat "Rube Goldberg" kind of solution: I used a thermoelectric heat pump assembly, like the kind in portable fridges and coolers, to cool the cabinet down without having to suck air into it. To the total amazement of the owner, and very much the chagrin of the lead tech (who hated me from that point on), my contraption kept the box at 90F or below and only cost about $300 in time and materials (they weren't paying me much... $7/hr).

[cachecreekcctv 0]

The one main problem with the DVR in an enclosure, outdoors, is the exchange of heat from inside . When I mentioned "Hubbell", I was just mentioning the most-used (in my opinion) Industrial Enclosures, not that they are the only ones, as Wiegand makes very good enclosures also. And I am sure there are others. I will always install at least one, sometimes two, cooling fans, (115vac) inside the enclosure. This will serve two purposes. One, keeps "positive" air pressure on the enclosure, in order to keep out dirt, pests, etc. And the second , is to remove heat. If I built an enclosure that is going to be "sprayed down", lets say, at a car wash, I would use my "special vents", and only punch holes in the bottom (downward) side of the enclosure, attaching Myers Hubs in all . I have built enclosures that get a constant water spray on them, yet contain 480vac, which doesn't lend itself well to water. I am not that familiar with the "new" method of evaluating the "weather proofing" of a system, i.e. the "IP66,67, etc", but more familiar with our own NEMA ratings. The Nema 4X enclosures have a gasket, with special clamps on the door. There are actually Nema-rated enclosures that are "submersible", but I don't deal with them often. Mostly Nema 4, 12, 13. Maybe look on Ebay, or find a local Electrical Parts House that is selling cheap ? Give yourself lots of room inside the enclosure, as you will want to add more in the future, believe me. My Avermedias are pretty thin style of DVR's. Another reason I like them. Good luck and let me know if you have anymore questions. I am not an "expert" on anything, so don't take my word as the final say. Get a few different opinions. When people ask me about my "formal education", I explain that I have a "PHD" on my wall at home. Actually, it is just a Post Hole Digger, hanging on the wall in my garage.

[cachecreekcctv 0]

UPDATE!! In previous posting(s), I meant to write "Hoffman", not Hubbell. Hoffman is #1 in electrical enclosures. Weigmann is part of Hubbell. Sorry.

[scorpion 0]

Your mistake has been noted, and your reprimand is in the mail!

 

 

Oh, and welcome back to the forum!

[cachecreekcctv 0]

If someone could only pay me what I think I am worth, I could come up with all sorts of new inventions/designs. As long as this person/company never asked for a college degree, never asked me to lift more than 20 pounds, and never required me to wear a suit and tie, I would be in heaven. I have had all the Special High Intensity Training needed to make things work.

[cctvexpert 0]

What you should be using is mobile DVRs which are designed for operating outdoors and in extreme environments. While an embedded DVR may be able to work in more extreme conditions than a traditional PC Based DVR it still is not designed to be working outdoors for a myriad of reasons. When we have worked with Departments of Transportations we have either used encoders and backhauled to a controlled area and then recorded at that location or we just used mobile dvrs in NEMA enclosures.

[cachecreekcctv 0]

As far as I can tell, Mobile DVR's are just the same Motherboard, etc. just in a smaller size housing. I have taken the Motherboard, Power Supply, etc. out of a large DVR, and installed the parts, with 2 hard drives and cooling fans (mini) in a Fiberglass Hoffman enclosure (Nema 4X) about 12X8X6. Pretty small enclosure, and added cooling fans on the hard drives. I had to make my own Hard drive mounts (double). All worked well, and are still going strong. I guess I made my own "mobile" DVR. I took the Avermedia EB1504 apart.

[cctvexpert 0]

its not that simple.

[Tesseract 0]

What you should be using is mobile DVRs which are designed for operating outdoors and in extreme environments. ..

 

Well, the title of the thread is, "DVR w/ web access in a NEMA box?" so it looks like I already figured out that I need a DVR (NVR, actually) that can be used in a harsher environment than an air-conditioned office...

 

Now, can anyone suggest an actual NVR? Surely there's something out there that fits the bill, I just haven't come across it yet.

[cachecreekcctv 0]

Not sure of what is required in an NVR, other than the ability to access it via IP. The "mobile " DVR I built from my Avermedia DVR, has been in a truck (not mine) for over 2 years now, and still going strong. I put some pretty heavy-duty mounts on the Fiberglass Hoffman enclosure, so it takes a pretty good "bouncing" around in this truck. Same 2 hard drives running when vehicle is on. Nema 4X enclosure, as there is a lot of dust, etc. If I were going to build an web-server DVR, or NVR, I guess I would probably build the same type of Steel enclosure, but using Avermedia 1304net, or 1704 Hybrid, then have a wireless router in the same enclosure. Access the recordings from my laptop while sitting in the parking lot next to it. I think VST_man built a similiar unit that worked pretty good. Maybe get him involved in this discussion. When it comes to the NVR/IP side of things, I think he is the "King".