3RDIGLBL 0 Posted January 28, 2009 Well I just suffered through a grueling 45 hour electrical code course. The course was 6 weeks and I learned a whole bunch......now a couple questions which may spread into more I'm sure. Code calls for grounding to be done on outdoor installations before entering the building. My instructor says that all my camera installations must be grounded before they enter the building................HOLY CRAP is he serious. I can not imagine that people run a separate equipment wire to each outdoor installation that is done. He also said that my aerials should be grounded on each side at the box they terminate in. Are there BNC grounding butt connectors? A connector where you could actually connect an equipment grounding wire to so that the shield of the cable is grounded. Code states that you are not suppose to run any cable directly on top of drop ceilings. It must be properly secured above the drop ceiling to a rafter or something like that....Wouldn't this defeat the time saving practice of snaking a cable across the ceiling grid with long fiberglass rods or pulling the cable with a fishing line cable shooter. If you have to pop each tile and secure the cable above in order to meet code then it's a waste to buy these tools for making life easier. How do you all handle this? If this is how the code is interpreted then I find violations in every single building I've been too. I told my instructor that I haven't seen one install done by way of code then...He just kind of shrugged his shoulders because he knows this is low voltage and video cable but it's what the code states. Hopefully I did not open a huge hole here but maybe it'll get some good conversation going about proper code practice or maybe the response will be "F" the code Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WSS 0 Posted January 28, 2009 alot of people dont follow code for installing cameras because its low voltage and theres no inspections. as far as securing wires above a drop ceiling, you dont have to pop up lots of tile, put a zip tie here and there and it will keep the wire off the drop ceiling, you most likely have the pop up the tile to grab the rod or send the rod because they only go so far. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scorpion 0 Posted January 28, 2009 CADDY is great for solving ceiling wire runs. All you do is clamp, and go! Cat Links http://www.erico.com/products/CADDY_CAT_LINKS.asp Cat Links PDF http://www.erico.com/public/library/Fixing/LT1438.pdf Scroll down to CAT 12 Hangers http://www.hometech.com/techwire/wiremgmt.html#SU-66145 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3RDIGLBL 0 Posted January 29, 2009 CADDY is great for solving ceiling wire runs. All you do is clamp, and go! Cat Links http://www.erico.com/products/CADDY_CAT_LINKS.asp Cat Links PDF http://www.erico.com/public/library/Fixing/LT1438.pdf Scroll down to CAT 12 Hangers http://www.hometech.com/techwire/wiremgmt.html#SU-66145 Man I could have used this on my last job. The bundle of cable I had going through rafters and such were huge and a real pain in the @$$. Thanks for links for this stuff scorpion. This doesn't really help me for the small single cable or maybe two that I have to run on top of the drop ceiling though. When it's just a small business who doesn't want to pay much for a CCTV install I've just been running the single cable or two directly on top of the drop ceiling. I figure if electricians can run their cables directly on top (YA see this all the time!) then it's ok for me to do it Code says this is a big no no though and definitely a no no with electrical cable.... I assume that this is pretty much the norm with most of you then. Run the Siamese cable directly on top of the drop ceiling, especially for a small job with a few cameras seems to be the norm? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
v2comp 0 Posted January 29, 2009 We always secure cables to avoid runs on top of drop sealing, but last job here in Chicago really took a wind out of our sails. We have been nailed by union electrician who send electrical inspector on us, and yes we did get a violation. Now picture this, by the code of City of Chicago all cables must be run in conduit including low voltage (communication or any other type) of cable on commercial buildings. We are being forced to do the job over and I am talking about 44 cameras long runs too, how you would feel about that. I never liked electricians, but this incident just made my feelings a bit more sour toward those F….. All those codes are different from City to City it is hard to keep up with it, especially if you have to take in consideration cost of install, after all most customers do have multiple quotes and you want to be competitive if you want the job. You also do not now if other quotes are following the codes or not. What a mess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Monitor Your Assets 0 Posted January 29, 2009 I've experienced similar grief at a site in Las Vegas. v2comp: does the code apply to cat5 plenum cable as well? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
v2comp 0 Posted January 29, 2009 According to Chicago inspector Cat5 Plenum cables, which by the way we have used, are no exception and need to be in conduits. I see no reason why, but can't argue with city inspector. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted January 29, 2009 Every commercial job I have ever been at I have seen RG-6, Firewire, Burg, Cat5, Phone, CCTV and everything else low voltage run on the ceiling grid. Were talking about installs from Verizon, ADT, ASG, Comcast all the big boys. The name of the game is get it done as fast as you can. I have never seen an inspector come in and look at the wiring if it was a retro install. Not that it makes things right but I though I would point this out. In my experiences only Fire jobs get inspected. I was at a commercial job and I asked the inspector if we needed to run Plenum wire for the networking and his response was and I quote" what is Plenum wire?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lolo Wolf 0 Posted January 29, 2009 Electrical and building codes are for safety, although some interpretations can differ by municipality. Whether a installer/contractor chooses to follow the law is up to them but dont cry if you get flagged on it down the road. Its not uncommon to find work violations in all trades, structural, electrical, plumbing etc.and often such work can compromise the integrity of existing or ongoing work. If a safety issue was to arise due to added/upgraded electrical work not done to code be it LV or not it can cause liability concerns further down the road.There are very stringent rules for the routing of communications cabling covered in Chapter 8 of the NEC. and there are specific guidelines for mounting and acceptable devices for mounting communication cables. Design considerations are based on Fire/safety. Bad mouthing Union electricians has nothing to do with the job, if anything he or she was correct and obligated in reporting the violation if it was indeed based on safety/code. Regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scorpion 0 Posted January 30, 2009 CADDY is great for solving ceiling wire runs. All you do is clamp, and go! Cat Links http://www.erico.com/products/CADDY_CAT_LINKS.asp Cat Links PDF http://www.erico.com/public/library/Fixing/LT1438.pdf Scroll down to CAT 12 Hangers http://www.hometech.com/techwire/wiremgmt.html#SU-66145 Man I could have used this on my last job. The bundle of cable I had going through rafters and such were huge and a real pain in the @$$. Thanks for links for this stuff scorpion. This doesn't really help me for the small single cable or maybe two that I have to run on top of the drop ceiling though. When it's just a small business who doesn't want to pay much for a CCTV install I've just been running the single cable or two directly on top of the drop ceiling. I figure if electricians can run their cables directly on top (YA see this all the time!) then it's ok for me to do it Code says this is a big no no though and definitely a no no with electrical cable.... I assume that this is pretty much the norm with most of you then. Run the Siamese cable directly on top of the drop ceiling, especially for a small job with a few cameras seems to be the norm? I try to get my wires over the rafter to keep them off the grid. As a cheat I have taken the suspended ceiling wire, and I have made in impromtu "hanger" to support my wires. Have you ever used these? FIRES STOP http://www.uniquefirestop.com/smooth.htm Home Page http://www.uniquefirestop.com/products.htm Intructions: http://www.uniquefirestop.com/smooth3.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebco 0 Posted January 30, 2009 can't argue with city inspector. No but you can take him out to lunch... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scorpion 0 Posted January 30, 2009 HMMMMM? Ex LX in the cake dessert, if the lunch doesn't warm em up? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3RDIGLBL 0 Posted January 30, 2009 Have you ever used these? FIRES STOP http://www.uniquefirestop.com/smooth.htm Home Page http://www.uniquefirestop.com/products.htm Intructions: http://www.uniquefirestop.com/smooth3.htm No but I have quoted out a job that was to use these. It was a car dealership where they wanted to have cameras in the service garage bays. I selected these as the device to use in order to get the cables from one side of the firewall to the other. They look to be pretty good and provide a very professional means of getting through the firewall. They look easy to use as well. ------------------- So ya I do know what the code says and I do understand the need for safety. What I am saying is if we were to follow the code all the time (which we should) then the cost of doing install really goes up due to the all the added time following the code. Actually using the wire supports of the drop ceiling grid as support for wires is also against code (thought I'd throw that in). Following the code like this really makes useless all the wire fish rods and such for getting wire across a drop ceiling. One would have to pop each tile in order to support the cable (adding time), also install hardware to support the cable (time and cost)......in the end it could really add up and make or break a deal. If your competitor goes in and bids much lower than you and he doesn't follow code then it's hard to justify to this customer why your cost estimate is much higher....you're doing the right thing and lose work because of it. No wonder so many including the big guys never follow the code, or seldom do anyhow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lolo Wolf 0 Posted January 30, 2009 I am not going to rant on codes or ability of trying to make a living, I know the bumps in the road spent most of my life workin in heavy construction and seen the BS from the inside out. Not behind a desk. When a contractor chooses to sidestep codes be it a national recognized law or local enforced requirements they do so with risk. Such risk can directly impact future bonding and ability to bid and perform public work, as well raise liability concerns in the event that a safety issue takes place. Estimate and design based on a clear understanding of the need to satisfy code is good business, and there is still room for profit. I agree building codes and local laws are often complicated by different jurisdiction and personalities but often the time it takes to figure ways around them is in the long run not worth it if a person wants to stay in business. If you loose a bid based on substandard work from a competitor and your customer fails to see that after you point it out than you are better off becuase more than likely they will chase after you later when they get flagged on a possible future inspection or a insurance claim. it is just a matter of time till that co gets flagged where as you will have your reputation and ability to sign off in future work and they will not. In my opnion one of the reasons our economy is in free-fall is the failure of the finical sector to follow laws and regulations put in place long ago combined with failure of the regulators oversight (pay offs, political-lobby, bid riggin etc)....the same shows in contracted work, there must be quality standards and practices in all work, the quick buck... well if they do it so will I attitude is what I think has taken pride and quality out of the picture and just added more fuel to the fire and the mess we are in now. Regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scorpion 0 Posted January 31, 2009 All of the night clubs used to chain side, or rear doors to keep the "sneak ins" out of the club that did not want to pay the door fee. All it took was one night club to catch fire, and the chains have disapeared. Then there was the indoor rock concert on stage where all of the bands blew off powder in pots, and then they started doing "fireworks". All it took was one night club to catch fire, and the fireworks have disapeared. It will not be long when a low voltage company will have the book thrown at it, and to be made an example for others! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C7 in CA 0 Posted February 3, 2009 I wouldn't want my cables laying on top of the ceiling grid if it ever came crashing down. Sounds like a pretty big liability to me. I run my cables up high. I don't want anybody walking on them or having to crawl through them. I'm 6'4 and can walk under these cables LoL! look at that fire alarm cable penetrate this firewall. Guess which cables we installed? I put in a fair bid to fix that with a split sleeve penetrator but never heard back... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
