Looking to Setup Surveillance in Dive Bar

[EgbertSouses 0]

Hello! My first post! So here's the story:

 

I'm trying to setup a surveillance system in my family's bar. Looking for a 8 Camera system - 2 outdoors and 6 indoors. This is mostly so that we can see what is going on remotely or from the office (upstairs).

 

Quality is VERY important as we believe many of the bartenders scam $$ and we need a clear picture. I have absolutely zero experience with CCTV, but I am very tech savvy (I can put together computers, etc.) and learn very quickly. After much self research, I'm thinking about the following setup:

 

PC Based DVR w/ GeoVision 2008 DVR Card (I'll probably install an intel quad core, 2 GB ram, one harddrive for OS, and 2x1TB harddrives for data), probably a $150 mid-range video card

 

Question #1: Is the above pc-based DVR system adequate?

 

Question #2: Should I go with IP cameras? If so, I'll probably need to change out the card with an avermedia considering the Geovision is not a hybrid. The only issue I have with IP cameras is wondering how much bandwidth I need -- the bar will only have a regular DSL connection. Does this matter?

 

Question #3: No idea on what cameras I need. There are just so many different options, so I figured I'd hear suggestions. I assume I'll need two vandal proof (for outside) and the other six don't neccessarily need to be vandal proof. However, I want all cameras to have good Day&Night functions and have overall good quality (480-550 TVL). Not exactly sure if I need tilt,zoom,etc. and/or vari-focal/auto-iris as I don't really know the benefits of that.

 

I'm looking to spend $3000-$4000 total. Also, with my budget in mind, let me know if I should tone down the DVR PC in order to afford better cameras.

 

I know this is alot, but I'm kind of clueless. Thanks ahead of time!

[Rebco 0]

You better believe they are stealing, Everytime i install a system in a cash & liquor business they usally catch someone within a day or two..

[EgbertSouses 0]

Yeah -- that's why I want to install this system ASAP. Currently, we are always there watching them to prevent theft, but is obviously tedious/tiring. I demoed the Geovision remote view -- it seemed decent. Does the card I plan to get (GV-2008) have decent remote viewing capabilities? Also, if I get IP cameras -- do I even need a DVR? Kind of confused about how they work...

 

Answers to my first questions would also be greatly appreciated!!

[EgbertSouses 0]

Also, I'm planning to get someone to install all the cameras & do the wiring.

 

How much should I expect to pay for installation?

[thewireguys 3]

Also, I'm planning to get someone to install all the cameras & do the wiring.

 

How much should I expect to pay for installation?

 

Where are you located?

[EgbertSouses 0]

The bar is in Oakland, CA.

 

I've been looking around and I'm thinking about purchasing these cameras:

 

6 of these inside:

NUVICO CD-SD21N DAY/NIGHT SECURITY DOME CAMERA WITH 2.8-10mm VARIFOCAL LENS

 

2 of these outside:

NUVICO CV-SD21N DAY/NIGHT VANDALPROOF WEATHERPROOF SECURITY DOME CAMERA WITH 2.8-10mm VARIFOCAL LENS

 

or

 

NUVICO CV-SD21N-L DAY/NIGHT VANDALPROOF WEATHERPROOF SECURITY DOME CAMERA WITH 36 IR LEDs

 

As you can see, there are two types of outdoor cameras I'm looking at -- I don't neccessarily know which one is better. I imagine the one with 36 IR LEDs are better for night time vision? But the Lux seems the same... Any comments? (I'd post links -- but I don't have enough posts/haven't been active enough days)

 

Also, are these considered to be quality cameras (The TVL seemed to be decent)? Is Nuvico a good brand? I don't mind spending more -- I'm looking for optimal quality for my budget and situation. Again, the main purpose of these cameras is to mainly catch employees stealing and just to have an overall view of the bar while not having to be there in person.

[Trimyr 0]

Going back to the first post, the specs for the PC may be a little high. You'll do fine with just a halfway decent dual core. Even a P4 at 3Ghz would be plenty for 8 cameras.

 

A Geovision 1240 card would be better suited to that as well. They're a little cheaper, helping you stay within the budget, plus they support H.264 compression. You could easily keep a month and a half or more using only 1TB and H.264. Aside from the compression, the main difference is that the GV2008's use hardware compression, while the others use the software and CPU to compress and process the video. If this computer won't be used for anything else, it's not something to worry about.

 

Most IP cameras, especially with your budget, do not handle low light very well. I'm guessing low light, since, well, you did say it's a dive. They'll work, but the video will have a lot of extra noise as the cameras try to balance the picture. You wouldn't need a DVR, per se, as the computer would act as that (just as it would with the PCI card). You would, however, need the NVR software installed on the PC. Something like Exacqvision, Luxriot, or others. A lot of IP cam manufacturers also provide recording software, but it only works for their brand of cameras. If you mix and match, you'll need separate commercial software that supports all brands you're using.

 

If you're worried about bandwidth, that's not too big of a concern. Lets say you get standard VGA resolution (640x480) IP cameras. At that point, remote viewing will be comparable to Geovision, or any other analog system. With megapixel IP cameras, you'd have to watch them at a reduced resolution. I mean you'd blow your budget with those first, but theoretically.

 

The Geovision software is essentially the same for all of their systems. The Multiview program on one card is just like any other.

 

I haven't used those particular cameras, so I can't comment too much, but the specs look good. For the outdoor cameras, the lux rating is the same because the cameras are the same. You're right, one just has IR.

 

Having someone else install and set up the system is a good idea. Just make sure you save enough for it. Since you're providing all of the equipment (minus cables, connectors, etc.) you can try calling some nearby companies and saying, "I've got this system I need installed. Can you do it for x?" I doubt they'll warranty your equipment, but you'll get a cleaner install.

[EgbertSouses 0]

Trimyr, thanks for your great response! I really appreciate it!

 

So I currently have an existing PC at the office that I use for office work. It has a P4, 2gigs of ram and about a $50 video card that I just recently installed. Do you think I could install the DVR on that computer? That way I wouldn't need to purchase a new computer. You said the GV-2008 has hardware compression -- so I imagine running office/accounting programs while the DVR is recording shouldn't be a problem?

 

Also, between the two outdoor cameras, would you say I'd get a better picture with the one with IR?

 

Thanks again!

[Trimyr 0]

That's right. With the GV-2008, it'll be just like you've got another program going in the background. It'll take up a chunk of memory, but not a lot of the CPU cycles. Watching the cameras will take up more, so don't go searching through old video while recording with a 10 page Excel document open. You won't hurt anything by doing that, you just might notice that the PC seems to be a little slower, and the recording framerate might drop somewhat. Keep the 2TBs though. Going from H.264 to MPEG will probably double your storage requirements.

 

I can't say which would be better for outside. Are you looking at just the entrance and exit? Or is it more like the parking lot and back alley? If it's close range, the cameras have pretty low lux ratings. I'd just put a light out there if it's dark. For long distance, like watching a whole parking lot, the infrared on those cameras won't reach that far anyway. The thing to keep in mind is that the IR range listed is the maximum (i.e. useless at that point) distance the IR will reach. Usable range is about half of that.

 

If it's close or medium range and dark, IR can brighten a picture, but not always the way you want. Often you'll notice you get a clearer, more even picture by turning off the IR and letting the camera deal with only the available light, be it streetlights or anything else. Sawbones posted a lot of examples of IR illuminators in this topic, http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=13935, and this shows a discussion of what to expect with IR LEDs on the camera - http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11387&start=0.

 

I feel like I just confused you more, but hope that helps.

[kensplace 0]

Geovision cards can be fussy about the motherboad type, they like intel chipsets - so if your planning on buying a pc, or using an existing one it would be a idea to check the system requirements listed on geovisions website to see if you have the right hardware first.

[EgbertSouses 0]

Yeah -- my existing office PC is a Intel P4 on a Asus mobo. I imagine that should be fine...

[EgbertSouses 0]

Thanks for the IR information -- seems like they are fairly useless. I'll settle with floodlights if anything.

 

Can someone explain the day/night features on cameras? Not exactly sure what that means...

[EgbertSouses 0]

Also -- I choose the GV-2008 because it is D1 capable. Does that make any sense? I had read somewhere on this forum that D1 is highest quality for analog cameras.

[thewireguys 3]

Day/Nite means color when there is enough light and black and white when their isn't. I would recommend you go with low light black and white only cameras because in most bars there isn't enough light to which the camera to color. You will be able to get black and white cameras cheaper so you can put more of your budget toward better outside cameras and/or more storage.

 

If you wanted to go IP. I would use video encoders and the same low light analog cameras for the inside and IP cameras for the outside. I would also recommend adding more lights outside instead of IP illuminators. You could use white LED illuminators to save on electricity.

[EgbertSouses 0]

Auto-iris vari focal lens -- what does that do? I received a quote that said he added Vari-focal Auto Iris Lens for your lighting condition.

 

Ideally, I want color cameras -- the bar isn't that dark inside, but if I can get a better picture with black and white, then I guess I'd go with that. Now that I've been looking at more setups -- I'm willing to spend around $4000 around hardware itself.

 

Can you recommend specific B/W cameras or color cameras that would produce a good quality for inside/outside?

[Trimyr 0]

Auto Iris - camera controls the iris in the lens to keep the same amount of light coming through.

 

Imagine walking out on a sunny day when you've been in the dark all morning. You squint your eyes to block some of the light. Now you go back inside. If your eyelids were manual iris lenses, you'd sit there all squinty until someone came by to open them back up.

 

The lighting will be dark, but constant, while the bar is open. All the lights come on after closing to clean, count, etc. They're both constant light sources, but very different. If you set a manual iris lens wide open to capture enough light during open hours, when the lights come on at 2 or whenever, it would completely wash out the image. Auto iris lenses are a little more expensive, but worth it in many situations.

 

Varifocal lenses can be adjusted from wide angle to zoom (more or less, depends on the lens) so you can get the right coverage without having to move the camera around everywhere. It's not automatic - you still have to get up there and change it if the view's not right, but it's a lot better than fixed lens-if the camera's here you're stuck with this view-situations.

[Rebco 0]

Hello! My first post! So here's the story:

 

I'm trying to setup a surveillance system in my family's bar. Looking for a 8 Camera system - 2 outdoors and 6 indoors. This is mostly so that we can see what is going on remotely or from the office (upstairs).

 

Quality is VERY important as we believe many of the bartenders scam $$ and we need a clear picture. I have absolutely zero experience with CCTV, but I am very tech savvy (I can put together computers, etc.) and learn very quickly. After much self research, I'm thinking about the following setup:

 

PC Based DVR w/ GeoVision 2008 DVR Card (I'll probably install an intel quad core, 2 GB ram, one harddrive for OS, and 2x1TB harddrives for data), probably a $150 mid-range video card

 

Question #1: Is the above pc-based DVR system adequate?

Yes, but if you want to save yourself some money use a stand alone.

 

Question #2: Should I go with IP cameras? If so, I'll probably need to change out the card with an avermedia considering the Geovision is not a hybrid. The only issue I have with IP cameras is wondering how much bandwidth I need -- the bar will only have a regular DSL connection. Does this matter?

Geovision Is a hybrid system but using IP cameras you will need alot of light

Question #3: No idea on what cameras I need. There are just so many different options, so I figured I'd hear suggestions. I assume I'll need two vandal proof (for outside) and the other six don't neccessarily need to be vandal proof. However, I want all cameras to have good Day&Night functions and have overall good quality (480-550 TVL). Not exactly sure if I need tilt,zoom,etc. and/or vari-focal/auto-iris as I don't really know the benefits of that.

 

Nuvico are nice cameras, If you going to use them with out the built in IRs, Nobody here can tell you what cameras to use without looking at your lighting inside and out. There usually isn't a one camera solution.

 

I'm looking to spend $3000-$4000 total. Also, with my budget in mind, let me know if I should tone down the DVR PC in order to afford better cameras.

 

I know this is alot, but I'm kind of clueless. Thanks ahead of time!

 

Please don't use an excisting PC to turn it into a DVR no matter what card you put in there. If you use the PC keep it a PC.

[EgbertSouses 0]

Thanks Rebco! -- Can you recommend a decent standalone DVR that will fit my needs? Ideally an 8 channel (but I'd consider a 16 channel just in case I want to add more cameras in the future). It is really important that it is easy to use and can easily review recorded material (perhaps with a mouse) -- intuitive gui/interface is important.

 

Here are two quotes I received after both technicians surveyed my bar:

 

FIRST ONE (11 CAMERAS - 3 OUTDOOR/8 INDOOR):

16 Real Time Eyemax DVR System P IV 3.0 Intel CPU with 1000 G Hd 1 1,200.00 1,200.00

CDR-W Drive , Desktop Case , Keybroad , Mouse Model 9240 240 FPS

 

21" LCD Monitor 1 320.00 320.00

 

IR Bullet 4mm to 9mm lens ( 3340 avf ) camera 3 140.00 420.00

 

Dome 48 dn 4mm to 9mm len with IR 3 150.00 450.00

 

 

Dn 400 Box camera 5 110.00 550.00

3.5 mm to 8 mm len 5 55.00 275.00

Dynamic camera box ( external use) 5 220.00 1,100.00

 

 

8 channel 12 V DC fuse Box 2 90.00 180.00

 

Cable use 1500 ft @ 40 cents per feet 1500 0.40 600.00

 

Installation , focuse , setup DVR system and internet access, training with 11 120.00 1,320.00

1 years warranty ( not included DSL line )

 

Total : 6,415.00

 

 

SECOND ONE WITH 8 CAMERAS (3 OUTDOOR/5 INDOOR):

 

DVR (Digital Video Recorder)

1 SDVS‐824P Hi‐Performance 8 Ch Real‐time Recording (240 live/240 record) $1,600.00 20% $1,280.00 T

CAMERA

3 V2815NVD Outdoor Vandal‐Proof Dome Type, 550 TVL High‐resolution w/

Auto Iris vari‐focal lens.

$395.00 20% $948.00 T

5 D2815NVF Indoor Dome Type, 550 TVL, Day & Night w/ Auto Iris vari‐focal

lens.

$325.00 20% $1,300.00 T

ACCESSORY

1 Tron924 B‐Tron, 8 OUTPUTS, 24 VAC, 200 VA, 4.2 AMPS, $120.00 20% $96.00 T

3 CAT5 500ft Category 5 Cable Box $79.00 20% $189.60 T

2 HDD500 500G Hard Disk Drive $199.00 20% $318.40 T

9 BLN‐1KPR Balun Pair, Up to 1000ft, UTP Passive Trans./Receive $18.00 20% $129.60 T

LABOR

1 N8CCTV Completed Wiring without conduit cable, Camera & System Setup,

DVR Network Setup

$800.00 $800.00

Our proposed bid is inclusive of all materials and labor to complete installation

TERM: 50% down payment required upon estimate approval

Balance due upon job completion

Total Discount $1,065.40

Sub Total $5,061.60

Sales Tax $372.89

Total $5,434.49

 

-----------------------

With that being disclosed, can you get a better idea of what cameras I should be looking at?

 

What are the general difference between bullet, dome, and box cameras? I simply chose dome because they are the most aesthetically pleasing.

 

Thanks!

[thewireguys 3]

Thanks Rebco! -- Can you recommend a decent standalone DVR that will fit my needs? Ideally an 8 channel (but I'd consider a 16 channel just in case I want to add more cameras in the future). It is really important that it is easy to use and can easily review recorded material (perhaps with a mouse) -- intuitive gui/interface is important.

 

Here are two quotes I received after both technicians surveyed my bar:

 

FIRST ONE (11 CAMERAS - 3 OUTDOOR/8 INDOOR):

16 Real Time Eyemax DVR System P IV 3.0 Intel CPU with 1000 G Hd 1 1,200.00 1,200.00

CDR-W Drive , Desktop Case , Keybroad , Mouse Model 9240 240 FPS

 

21" LCD Monitor 1 320.00 320.00

 

IR Bullet 4mm to 9mm lens ( 3340 avf ) camera 3 140.00 420.00

 

Dome 48 dn 4mm to 9mm len with IR 3 150.00 450.00

 

 

Dn 400 Box camera 5 110.00 550.00

3.5 mm to 8 mm len 5 55.00 275.00

Dynamic camera box ( external use) 5 220.00 1,100.00

 

 

8 channel 12 V DC fuse Box 2 90.00 180.00

 

Cable use 1500 ft @ 40 cents per feet 1500 0.40 600.00

 

Installation , focuse , setup DVR system and internet access, training with 11 120.00 1,320.00

1 years warranty ( not included DSL line )

 

Total : 6,415.00

 

 

SECOND ONE WITH 8 CAMERAS (3 OUTDOOR/5 INDOOR):

 

DVR (Digital Video Recorder)

1 SDVS‐824P Hi‐Performance 8 Ch Real‐time Recording (240 live/240 record) $1,600.00 20% $1,280.00 T

CAMERA

3 V2815NVD Outdoor Vandal‐Proof Dome Type, 550 TVL High‐resolution w/

Auto Iris vari‐focal lens.

$395.00 20% $948.00 T

5 D2815NVF Indoor Dome Type, 550 TVL, Day & Night w/ Auto Iris vari‐focal

lens.

$325.00 20% $1,300.00 T

ACCESSORY

1 Tron924 B‐Tron, 8 OUTPUTS, 24 VAC, 200 VA, 4.2 AMPS, $120.00 20% $96.00 T

3 CAT5 500ft Category 5 Cable Box $79.00 20% $189.60 T

2 HDD500 500G Hard Disk Drive $199.00 20% $318.40 T

9 BLN‐1KPR Balun Pair, Up to 1000ft, UTP Passive Trans./Receive $18.00 20% $129.60 T

LABOR

1 N8CCTV Completed Wiring without conduit cable, Camera & System Setup,

DVR Network Setup

$800.00 $800.00

Our proposed bid is inclusive of all materials and labor to complete installation

TERM: 50% down payment required upon estimate approval

Balance due upon job completion

Total Discount $1,065.40

Sub Total $5,061.60

Sales Tax $372.89

Total $5,434.49

 

-----------------------

With that being disclosed, can you get a better idea of what cameras I should be looking at?

 

What are the general difference between bullet, dome, and box cameras? I simply chose dome because they are the most aesthetically pleasing.

 

Thanks!

 

Can you take any pics of your bar and post them for us?

[CCTV_queer 0]

Egbert -

 

As I indicated in your other post about this install, the Nuvico cameras with the SIE chipset that have digital slow shutter work great in a bar setting. Furthermore, cameras with an 'SD' in the middle of them have day/night cut filters, so yeah, the picture quality will be outstanding.

 

Check out my attached image which shows what these cameras look like in extreme low light... this is a very dark alley, I know, my company installed it.

[EgbertSouses 0]

s3.photobucket.c0m/albums/y56/edwardyoo/egbert/

 

(Please replace the "0" with a "o" in com -- couldnt post legit links bc of 5 day requirement.)

 

I've posted pictures - as you can see, there is ample lighting (so I probably won't have too many issues).

 

Can someone recommend a stand alone DVR that is reliable and easy to use (ideally with a mouse)? I'm willing to spend up to $2000 on it alone

[EgbertSouses 0]

Egbert -

 

As I indicated in your other post about this install, the Nuvico cameras with the SIE chipset that have digital slow shutter work great in a bar setting. Furthermore, cameras with an 'SD' in the middle of them have day/night cut filters, so yeah, the picture quality will be outstanding.

 

Check out my attached image which shows what these cameras look like in extreme low light... this is a very dark alley, I know, my company installed it.

 

Thanks for the advice. Did the Nuvico cameras I previously referenced have the SIE chipset that you mention?

 

Also, what website would you recommend I make these purchases from. As of now, I'm just using what I find via google.

[EgbertSouses 0]

Sorry for all the questions -- but whats the difference between 24VAC and 12VDC?

 

I ask because the Nuvico cameras are both 24VAC and 12VDC compatible, so I'm wondering which fuse box I'm better off with..

[WSS 0]

AC is better for longer runs.

Those nuvico cameras are great cameras.

Yes they do have SIE chipset

[Rebco 0]

Can you take any pics of your bar and post them for us?

 

Sorry for the delay, no i can't post photos as it's a gentlemens club hint hint