Why buy a 5MP Camera??

[SteveMyers 0]

I have been reviewing three IP/MP cameras and have a question.

Why would anyone buy a 5MP camera?

 

I have a AV1300M(1.3MP), an AV3100M(3MP) and an AV5100DN(5MP).

 

I've tried MP lenses from Fujinon, Tamron and Computar.

The main requirement is it must be able to go 6mm or lower.

 

I have asked several people to look at the video from all three of these cameras.

 

Everyone can see the difference from the 1.3 but not one single person can tell the difference from the 3.0 and the 5.0MP image.

 

I read somewhere here that the lens makes the camera, but which lens?

Asking Arecont does no good because they don't answer their email.

 

Am I missing something here?

[ak357 0]

I have been reviewing three IP/MP cameras and have a question.

Why would anyone buy a 5MP camera?

 

I have a AV1300M(1.3MP), an AV3100M(3MP) and an AV5100DN

 

I have asked several people to look at the video from all three of these cameras.

 

Everyone can see the difference from the 1.3 but not one single person can tell the difference from the 3.0 and the 5.0MP image.

 

Am I missing something here?

 

Why buy 1MP or 3MP or 5MP or 10MP regular consumer type digital still camera ?

answer this ? and the same logic apply to CCTV

 

I will give you hint try Google

[VST_Man 1]

who?

- someone who "just wants it".

- someone who wants to test it.

- someone who engineers a CCTV system with lots of money and a desired result.

- someone like you?

 

ya know, they would not build this stuff unless someone buys it......

 

the answer is....SOMEONE

 

next question?

[SteveMyers 0]

Why buy 1MP or 3MP or 5MP or 10MP regular consumer type digital still camera ?

answer this ? and the same logic apply to CCTV

 

I will give you hint try Google

 

I've been Googling this for days...

 

The comparison to a regular, consumer type camera doesn't work because those all come with matching lenses or, in the case of the ones with detachable lenses, matching lenses are available from many sources.

 

Arecont won't answer the question but, if I Google their "recommend" lenses, I get 3MP max.

 

Computar told me they all of their MP lenses are 1.3MP max and they are "working on"3MP and 5MP and expect to have a product in a year or so.

 

Tamron said basically the same thing, 1.3MP max.

 

Fujinon has 5MP in 2/3", but nothing to be used on wide angle Security systems, only 12mm+ Machine Vision lenses.

They also told me using a 2/3" on a 1/2" format camera cuts back even more on the viewable angle.

[cctv_down_under 0]

I ahve just completed a testing comparison betwen IP MP cameras and analogue.....but can't post up here files are too big...if you want to see a simple email with some direct comparisons just PM me with an email addy

[ak357 0]

Why buy 1MP or 3MP or 5MP or 10MP regular consumer type digital still camera ?

answer this ? and the same logic apply to CCTV

 

I will give you hint try Google

 

I've been Googling this for days...

 

The comparison to a regular, consumer type camera doesn't work because those all come with matching lenses or, in the case of the ones with detachable lenses, matching lenses are available from many sources.

 

quote]

 

ok lets do this

take 3MP Cam and do a shot let say 20 feet wide and 25 away from

then do the same with 5MP

then count how many pixels per linear foot u have and then think if its make sense for you

Shall I keep going ?...

no fun to give u answer

That how I traine my salesman

[SteveMyers 0]

ok lets do this

take 3MP Cam and do a shot let say 20 feet wide and 25 away from

then do the same with 5MP

then count how many pixels per linear foot u have and then think if its make sense for you

Shall I keep going ?...

no fun to give u answer

That how I traine my salesman

 

 

I think you miss-read my question. (or better yet, maybe I didn't make myself clear)

 

I understand the difference in the cameras, 2592x1944 vs 2048x1536 should be a visible difference in image...if there was a lens available that could actually "see" 2592x1944.

 

 

Using a 3MP lens on a 5MP camera results in only a slightly better image that a 3MP lens on a 3MP camera.

All it does is combine the pixels down to about 3MP.

 

I keep searching and so far I have found only one lens that claims to be 5MP+ rated and has a focal length of less than 6mm, a KOWA LM3NCM 3.5fl c-mount.

 

I'll contact them in the morning and if indeed it is rated at 5MP+, I'll order one and see if it works as advertised.

[Erron S. 0]

That's one of the two reasons I sell the IQ Eye cameras.

http://www.iqeye.com/index.php/weatherproof-security-camera.html

 

Not only do they come with the proper lens already installed, but they also have the IQ Focus tool built in. With these cameras, and really MP in general, lens setup is critical for a proper image. The old way of tweaking the lens until it -looks- like a good image is not only tricky but doesn't take full advantage of the cameras abilities. By using the IQ Focus tool you can achieve clarity that even a seasoned veteran in the industry can't do with the naked eye. I had a dealer set one up with a 22" monitor using nothing but his eyes. It was good image honestly, then I showed him the focus tool. He picked up about 5% additional clarity overall on the image.

[griffonsystems 0]

mobotix has the same image focus tool built into the camera and some of the camera models come with the lens already mounted so no need to adjust which is nice

[Soundy 1]

I understand the difference in the cameras, 2592x1944 vs 2048x1536 should be a visible difference in image...if there was a lens available that could actually "see" 2592x1944.

 

 

Using a 3MP lens on a 5MP camera results in only a slightly better image that a 3MP lens on a 3MP camera.

All it does is combine the pixels down to about 3MP.

 

No, it doesn't.

 

A lens, in this definition, is a series of curved glass or plastic elements that bend light. Along with some supporting structure, and an integral iris to control the amount of light transmitted, that's all there is to it. A lens doesn't know or care what type of camera it's on; all it does is bend light. It works exactly the same whether it's mounted in front of an electronic sensor, or a piece of film, or just a white piece of paper.

 

Cheaper lenses may take advantage of the fact that cheaper, low-res cameras won't show up deficiencies in design and manufacturing, but they work exactly the same as expensive "megapixel" lenses... the higher-resolution cameras are just more likely to make the deficiencies stand out.

[SteveMyers 0]

No, it doesn't.

 

A lens, in this definition, is a series of curved glass or plastic elements that bend light. Along with some supporting structure, and an integral iris to control the amount of light transmitted, that's all there is to it. A lens doesn't know or care what type of camera it's on; all it does is bend light. It works exactly the same whether it's mounted in front of an electronic sensor, or a piece of film, or just a white piece of paper.

 

Cheaper lenses may take advantage of the fact that cheaper, low-res cameras won't show up deficiencies in design and manufacturing, but they work exactly the same as expensive "megapixel" lenses... the higher-resolution cameras are just more likely to make the deficiencies stand out.

Thanks for the input.

 

To make myself clear, I never pretended to know anything a bout digital cameras/lenses, hence my coming here and asking questions.

 

What I do know is that the images I can see with my own eyes show me absolutely zero difference in the 3MP and 5MP camera/lenses I bought for testing.

 

 

From what you are telling me I can only come to the conclusion that the information about MTF I'm getting from Fujinon, Computar, Tamron and Kowa is wrong.

 

Both Kowa and Fujinon told me to contact Navitar and get one of their 2/3" 5MP lenses if I expect to see a difference in 3MP to 5MP.

 

Reading the information at

www.optikos.com/Pdf_files/how_to_measure_mtf.pdf

tends to make their point clear.

 

I have the top 1/2" MP lenses from Fujinon, Computar, Tamron and Kowa.

All of the companies technical support people I spoke with tell me that none of their "Megapixel" lenses will resolve down to 2.2um, which is what the 1/2" sensor on an AV5100DN needs.

 

To paraphrase what one of the techs told me

(not a direct quote, as best as I can recall):

 

“a lens for a CMOS sensor is a different animal then one for film. For one thing, film doesn’t care as much about the attack angle of the light hitting the emulsification layers…â€

Edited February 26, 2009 by Guest

[Securityguy1 0]

Well, I can't speak on behalf of anyone else, but I have had personal experience with the arecont vision mega pixel cameras. They are the best I have seen out there yet. Well, that is until Pelco comes out with the new Sarix cameras which I have my hands on right now. They still have several bugs to work out for their big release after the ISC Show in Las Vegas.

[SteveMyers 0]

Well, I can't speak on behalf of anyone else, but I have had personal experience with the arecont vision mega pixel cameras. They are the best I have seen out there yet. Well, that is until Pelco comes out with the new Sarix cameras which I have my hands on right now. They still have several bugs to work out for their big release after the ISC Show in Las Vegas.

 

Have you ever worked with the Arecont AV510x series?

If so, I'd be very interested in knowing what lenses you have tried.

 

I had no problem getting a good lens that matched the 3.2um pixel pitch for the AV3100, but so far no luck with the AV5100 yet.

 

I ordered a Navitar NMV-8M23, but it takes two weeks to get one...

 

 

What I have observed so far is:

Any of the previously mentioned Megapixel lenses work just fine on the 1.3MP AV1300.

 

The Fujinon, Kowa and Tamron look best on the 3.0MP AV3100, but give almost the same image as the AV3100 when mounted to the 5.0MP AV5100.

 

Looking closely at their MTF specs reveals why.

[rory 0]

I ahve just completed a testing comparison betwen IP MP cameras and analogue.....but can't post up here files are too big...if you want to see a simple email with some direct comparisons just PM me with an email addy

 

I can make some room on my server. let me know.

Rory

[slowforthecones 0]

5mp camera captures a lot of information and a wide range in clearity compared to analog cameras.

[Oxide.Blu 0]

I understand the difference in the cameras, 2592x1944 vs 2048x1536 should be a visible difference in image...if there was a lens available that could actually "see" 2592x1944.

 

 

Using a 3MP lens on a 5MP camera results in only a slightly better image that a 3MP lens on a 3MP camera.

All it does is combine the pixels down to about 3MP.

 

No, it doesn't.

 

A lens, in this definition, is a series of curved glass or plastic elements that bend light. Along with some supporting structure, and an integral iris to control the amount of light transmitted, that's all there is to it. A lens doesn't know or care what type of camera it's on; all it does is bend light. It works exactly the same whether it's mounted in front of an electronic sensor, or a piece of film, or just a white piece of paper.

 

Cheaper lenses may take advantage of the fact that cheaper, low-res cameras won't show up deficiencies in design and manufacturing, but they work exactly the same as expensive "megapixel" lenses... the higher-resolution cameras are just more likely to make the deficiencies stand out.

 

 

Well, yes, it may.

 

There is more to lens than just an image coming out the other side, as the OP is discovering. A lens can only resolve so many 'lines' of data. There is a std that optical manfrs use to determine the 'lines'. The more lines, the more detail you get out of the lens's image.

 

A lens outputs an 'image circle' -- literally, the size of the circle with the image in it. The image circle must be at least as large as the sensor in the camera or you would get image clipping in the corners.

 

The image circle is a fixed size, so your sensor is limited in its size. Add more pixels, the diff between 3mp and 5mp, in the same sensor size, and if the lens can't resolve enough lines the 5mp image will resemble the 3mp image. Put a 20mp sensor in the same size with the same lens and it will still look like a 3mp image -- if that is the max of what the lens can resolve.

 

Fwiw, this issue is as old as photography itself. Folks used to think that going to a bigger negative automatically meant more detail, but not always.