Delta 1 0 Posted May 13, 2009 Hi, Can anybody solve this riddle? I work in a department store which has 60 digital cameras (50 PTZ's & 10 Statics). All cameras are wired back to a 'Checkpoint' analog matrix & then through six multiplexers & finally to six VCR's. Recently 10 cameras have gone down & are in need of replacement. Because of the work needed, i have decided its time to upgrade to DVR's & also replace the current camera controller (the current system is exactly ten years old!) however i am faced with the following dilemas: 1.Can i have the ten cameras replaced and intergrated into the old matrix? 2. Is it possible to buy a controller that can operate both old/new cameras? 3. Is it possible to install DVR's that intergrate the old/new cameras? Any suggestions in terms of makes/brands of matrix,cameras or DVR's that can help with I have recently had a cctv engineer attend the store who has advised me that it might not be possible to introduce the new cameras to the old system/matrix & may have to be controlled on a stand alone system! Furthermore a new controller may not operate both new/old cameras! I was advised that i may have to purchase a new matrix or replace ALL 60 cameras! At £650 each this is simply not cost effective! Is this guy full of BS or is this genuine advice????? NOTE: An IP system would not be possible in the store as internet access is restricted/not available. Any advice would be really appreciated, Thanks, DELTA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted May 13, 2009 Well, I'm not familiar with your "analog matrix" device, but a few thoughts come to mind... I guess the most important question is, do ALL the camera lines run directly tp the same place, ie. at this matrix device? If so, then the solution becomes relatively easy: drop in DVRs as necessary and just connect the cameras to them in whatever arrangement suits your needs. Now, I'll start right off suggesting you take a look at Camacc's Vigil DVRs, because all your needs could be nicely handled with as few as two of them. At the upper end of their scale, they have a 32-channel, 960fps (30fps *per channel* system if your needs are really that extreme... right down to 60fps, 16-channel systems. Assuming, again, that all the cameras have a direct run back to the same point, it would be as simple as just disconnecting from the matrix, and connecting to the DVRs. For PTZ control, as long as the cameras support Pelco D or P protocols, or if they're a model that Vigil has support for, they can all be controlled through software. If they have RS-232/422/485 support, they can be easily connected to a serial port on the DVR (whether onboard, or using USB-to-serial adapters); as well, some Vigil models have multi-output RS-485 ports combined with the capture cards. Several cameras can easily be daisy-chained off a single port so you don't actually have to have 60 ports available. As far as having everything in one place, Vigil's remote client does a stellar job of letting you view and control multiple servers from a single interface, and has PTZ control through that interface as well. Say, for example, you have a seven-floor store with 10 cameras on each floor, and each floors cameras simply terminate at a room on that floor... you could drop a 16-channel DVR on each floor, then network them all together, and access them all through a single client interface anywhere else on the network. Vigil also allows you to run a central database for multiple servers, and a NAS storage array could be added to the network to provide shared storage space for all of them. Oh, and don't rule out IP: internet access is not required at all for any IP camera system. The DVRs/NVRs and cameras can live on their own completely isolated network. Devices like the Highwire can even be used to run 10/100 networking over existing coax cables (they can be a little spendy, but for situations like this, it's a lot cheaper than pulling new Cat-5e.) And once again, Vigil DVRs integrate analog and IP cameras seamlessly in one interface. Those are just some initial thoughts based on somewhat limited information... more details on how things are actually laid out and wired there would be helpful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zmxtech 0 Posted May 13, 2009 if 10 cams are down there's something really wrong ! No IP cameras ?? bizzzzzzzzzzzzare they actually want low res ??? If you installed IP cams it would be on a separate network there are lots of Hybrid solutions if you want to go that way. oh that guy is full of BS he wants to sell you HIS system ! get as many quotes as you can. some full replacement/some new system and some IP setups. As an example 650 pounds will buy 4 hi res IP cameras ! which can replace 16 analogs in some cases. z Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LEARNINGCCTV 0 Posted May 13, 2009 I am sure your old cameras will plug and play right into a new DVR and Matrix no problem. As for controlling the cameras you just need to match the protocols of the cameras and the controllers. Many cameras and controllers use a Pelco protocol or have numerous protocols already built into them. I agree that this engineer is most likely just trying to up-sell you. As for the cameras that are bad I would take each one down, create a short 10ft patch cable with video and power and plug it into a brand new transformer just to make sure the cameras are not still good. Make sure you get a transformer that has the right AMP's needs to power the PTZ. PTZ's take a lot of power and I have seen that power starts to drop off over the years in a powersource. You may just need to replace your power supplies. Or get more power out to the cameras. 10 bad cameras seems very suspicious to me. I would test them all off the system individually before you do anything radical Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Delta 1 0 Posted May 14, 2009 Guys thanks for all your tips & advice....a bit more info for you... Firstly the system in the store is exactly ten years old & the ten cameras that have gone out have dropped off one by one over the years not all at once. Ive tested each cam at the source, using a test screen & found that ther is power available for each one but no image from the cam's. The matrix is is a 64 way video matrix ECTO1323 that has all 60 cameras (sited over two floors) wired back directly to it (using cat-5 cable) in the cctv room on the ground floor. Ideally i want to incorporate the 10 new/replacement cams through the current matrix & then to the new DVR's. I also want one controller that can operate both old & new cams. SOUNDY: Your point about Pelco D or P protocols....how do i establish this? Because of the age of the system i dont have any manuals for it. Furthermore, after removing the domes to gain access to the actual cams they have no markings on them!!!!! I imagine your thinking this is a real hillbilly system! but ten years ago this system was probably the balls! Added to these difficulties, the original company who did the install, Photoscan (UK company) have merged with siemans so thats another dead end! JUST TO RECAP: I feel better knowing its more likely any new cameras introduced can be run through the current mpx providing they speak the same language. I just have to find a controller that also speaks that language too! Any further advice is very welcome. DELTA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted May 14, 2009 Can you maybe post some pictures of these cameras? The internals, the connectors, etc. There must be some way to tell what they are... perhaps some internal markings on the circuit boards or chips. If they were ever made available for sale in the US, there should be an FCC ID number silkscreened to the circuit boards, from which we can look up some manufacturer information at the FCC website (www.fcc.gov). Google didn't find any info on that matrix... is ECTO the manufacturer?? Hmmm, you say there's Cat5 running to the cameras - are they using video baluns? Or does the Cat5 just plug straight into the camera? Do they have separate connections for the power and control signals? For the age, it's unlikely that they're IP cameras... I've seen several Pelco models with built-in balun outputs though. I'm thinking that "matrix" box may be primarily just a big mass of baluns that then just spits out video over coax, in which case it could stay in place and feed video to the DVRs instead of to the MUXes. If that's the case, you SHOULD be able to slot in new cameras with the existing setup, but it may take a little doctoring - if the old cameras do, in fact, have built-in baluns, you'll need to add baluns to the new cameras, and just split out the Cat5 for your video and control signals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Delta 1 0 Posted May 15, 2009 Soundy....your knowledge intimidates!!!!! By now you may have realised im not an expert in the field. But as security manager for the store i work, in its my responsibility to resolve this kind of thing. Anyway, I'll take some pics of the cctv setup & get back to you! Thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted May 15, 2009 Looking forward to it This is actually a rather interesting dilemma... I love a good challenge, although doing it all via forum may prove to be a bit frustrating Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zmxtech 0 Posted May 15, 2009 After 10 years all the cams will have nasty burn in -Replace the lot ! CAT5 10 years ago ? don't think so. Time for a new system why waste any time with this old dinosaur. Some people like vintage cars I guess Give me IP cams and a ray gun any day ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sawbones 0 Posted May 16, 2009 Cat5 has been around at least ten years... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zmxtech 0 Posted May 18, 2009 my bad 9.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 years... picky... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
