Which NVR Can Keep up with Multiple Megapixel Cameras

[aalbert 0]

I work for a high end audio video firm that is expanding into CCTV. To that end, we have a client that wishes to roll out a system with approx 22 cameras. We are looking at a mix of cameras (Arecont 5mp, Sanyo HD4000, ??). In all cases the cameras would be configured for at least 15fps video (at the expense of resolution),

 

I have looked at Milestone, and it seems to be very vendor neutral, but I wanted to see if there were any other vendors out there that I should consider... In particular importance, I need to make sure that the NVR can acommodate all cameras at once.

 

Also it appears that most of the NVRs pass the original IP stream back to the viewer, which is fine in a LAN environment, but I wanted to see if any of the NVRs support recompressing the video stream for WAN viewing.

 

Any, suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Andy (CCNA, MCSE, Crestron)

[Privatteer 0]

Exacqvision

http://www.exacq.com

 

Pricing was better than Milestone. Multiple camera vendors, arecont is one.

Have accessed a 16 cam system on 512K adsl link and was happy with the performance.

 

Simple to use/setup, I feel its more client friendly than some systems around.

 

Cant say much more than that as so far only tested with 1 cam.

[thewireguys 3]

You might what to look into OnSSi. Their Ocularis client software is designed for touchscreens which your customers might already have with there Crestron setups.

[Soundy 1]

Vigil will do the trick - I have one site with 13 IQ-511s, all at full res (1280x1024), though lower framerates. And yes, it can recompress for WAN viewing. They have a very nice client software that will let you view multiple sites within one window (only drawback is, it's Windows only).

 

What resolutions are you actually planning on running these cameras at?

 

The big thing with 22 cams at 15fps will be storage space, if retention time is a concern...

[aalbert 0]

In terms of framerate and resolution I would like to push the Sanyo HD4000 cameras to full 1080p at 24 or 30fps.. The Areconts we were hoping to push at 1600x1200/24fps.... We also considered the Sony SnCDM160 (because it also supports composite out at the same time), @ 1280x960/15fps for some spots.

 

In our particular case, we need both the IP streams and Analog or HDMI streams, so that we can get images back to the NVR, but also route them through Cretron or Extron video switchers for inclusion in panels or on traditional TVs around the house.

 

Storage wise, we were counting on the NVR not always having to record the frames, when nothing is happening, but we also have a fairly healthy budget and can arrange for 20-30TB of attached RAID5 storage.

 

Currently the client has a full analog system, installed by another vendor that uses a Dedicated Micros DVR, and our marching orders were to come up with a Ferrari type system in comparison (he considered the Dedicated Micros to be very VW).

 

Anyway, we are not tied to having a PC based solution (I would be happier with a purpose built device to be honest) - we just need the best performance possible.

[Soundy 1]

In terms of framerate and resolution I would like to push the Sanyo HD4000 cameras to full 1080p at 24 or 30fps.. The Areconts we were hoping to push at 1600x1200/24fps.... We also considered the Sony SnCDM160 (because it also supports composite out at the same time), @ 1280x960/15fps for some spots.

 

Take a look at some of IQ Invision's cameras (www.iqeye.com) - their Alliance series domes also have composite out that we've used to feed Customer Awareness monitors on some sites. The base models start at full 1.3MP (1280x1024).

 

As far as framerates, is there any particular reason for going full 24/30? I find even 15fps is virtually indistinguishable from 30 for anything except fairly fast action - as far as surveillance purposes go, you save half the storage with practically no loss in video quality. Even 10fps will be sufficient in most cases, and still difficult for most people to notice the difference.

 

Storage wise, we were counting on the NVR not always having to record the frames, when nothing is happening, but we also have a fairly healthy budget and can arrange for 20-30TB of attached RAID5 storage.

 

Mmmmm, tasty space! Most NVR software will have adjustable motion-detect recording, allowing you to alter the sensitivity as well as masking motion areas. If you don't need to RECORD at 24/30fps, you save a lot more space as well.

 

Currently the client has a full analog system, installed by another vendor that uses a Dedicated Micros DVR, and our marching orders were to come up with a Ferrari type system in comparison (he considered the Dedicated Micros to be very VW).

 

Well, I can suggest Vigil, because I'm most familar with them... I dunno if you'd consider it a "Ferrari" system (can't say for sure because I've never dealt with anything higher-end than that; we tried a Pelco DX8000 on one site but both we and the client hated the interface), but it would at least be an LT1 Corvette, or maybe a Viper It's currently the corporate standard for at two of Canada's major oil companies that we supply (at least for their BC and Alberta regions), and we're gradually migrating a large upscale restaurant chain from GeoVision (Vigil w/ RAID5 storage and a mix of analog and IP cams at all their new sites, and replacing the Geos as they die).

 

If you go to www.camacc.com or www.3xlogic.com, you can download a 30-day, fully-functional trial version of the Vigil software to test with your cameras; just tell it you're installing as an NVR during setup (scroll all the way down when it asks what card you're using) .

 

And no, I don't work for Camacc/3xLogic.... just really happy with their products and support.

[aalbert 0]

Take a look at some of IQ Invision's cameras - their Alliance series domes also have composite out that we've used to feed Customer Awareness monitors on some sites. The base models start at full 1.3MP (1280x1024)..

 

I checked out there cams, and looked at their documentation. They seem to have good resolution, but the frame rate isn't quite where I need it. I also downloaded their manual to see if the 5mp unit could be "detuned" to a slighty lower resolution for a higher ips, but could not tell if it does.

 

 

As far as framerates, is there any particular reason for going full 24/30? I find even 15fps is virtually indistinguishable from 30 for anything except fairly fast action - as far as surveillance purposes go, you save half the storage with practically no loss in video quality. Even 10fps will be sufficient in most cases, and still difficult for most people to notice the difference.

 

With the existing Dedicated Micros system, one of his first comments was the low frame rate he was getting when viewing cameras - his second comment was the quality of the image being poor(we also loop the same analog fee through Axis camera servers for a feed to touchpanels, and the Axis has a nicer presentation of that image). So we wanted error on the side of caution, and go with as high a frame rate as possible. I know that a lot of airports etc. use 15fps as their standard, so we are keeping that as our base level, and going from there.

 

If you go to camacc or 3xlogic, you can download a 30-day, fully-functional trial version of the Vigil software to test with your cameras; just tell it you're installing as an NVR during setup (scroll all the way down when it asks what card you're using) .

 

I will check them out.... Good thing I have a couple spare servers laying around to demo this stuff =).

[Erron S. 0]

Thanks Soundy! We appreciate the recommendation. If I can answer any questions at all, please ask.

[Soundy 1]

Hey, no problem.

 

When can I expect my kickback check?? (kidding, KIDDING!)

[Sawbones 0]

Kickbacks? Who do you think you are, the Governor of Illinois?

 

[megapixel man 0]

I work for a high end audio video firm that is expanding into CCTV. To that end, we have a client that wishes to roll out a system with approx 22 cameras. We are looking at a mix of cameras (Arecont 5mp, Sanyo HD4000, ??). In all cases the cameras would be configured for at least 15fps video (at the expense of resolution),

 

I have looked at Milestone, and it seems to be very vendor neutral, but I wanted to see if there were any other vendors out there that I should consider... In particular importance, I need to make sure that the NVR can acommodate all cameras at once.

Also it appears that most of the NVRs pass the original IP stream back to the viewer, which is fine in a LAN environment, but I wanted to see if any of the NVRs support recompressing the video stream for WAN viewing.

 

Any, suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Regards,n

 

Andy (CCNA, MCSE, Crestron)

 

Have a look at Avigilon, it can handle multiple megapixel cameras at once, has a great range of Megapixel Cameras, and handles the WAN environment very well with JPEG2000 progressive compression and HDSM (High Definition Stream Management). Certainly a Ferrari of CCTV Systems.

[Erron S. 0]

Hey, no problem.

 

When can I expect my kickback check?? (kidding, KIDDING!)

 

The check is in the mail!! LOL!

 

(don't we wish, har-har-har)

[shentim 0]

I'd have to say that the Sanyo one listed above that can do 30ips at 1920x1080 w/ H.264 compression seems the most impressive - the Avigilon camera specs show very low ips capability on their data sheets.

[thewireguys 3]

I'd have to say that the Sanyo one listed above that can do 30ips at 1920x1080 w/ H.264 compression seems the most impressive - the Avigilon camera specs show very low ips capability on their data sheets.

 

The problem with the Sanyo camera is NVR compatibility.

[shentim 0]

Yeah I definitely agree with that, but I gotta say that's pretty impressive to be able to do that - it looks like the industry standard so far is around 15fps w/ Arecont Vision cameras at 3-5MP?

[Soundy 1]

I'd have to say that the Sanyo one listed above that can do 30ips at 1920x1080 w/ H.264 compression seems the most impressive - the Avigilon camera specs show very low ips capability on their data sheets.

 

The problem with the Sanyo camera is NVR compatibility.

 

Vigil lists Sanyo in the DVR's "Network Camera Settings".

 

Yeah I definitely agree with that, but I gotta say that's pretty impressive to be able to do that - it looks like the industry standard so far is around 15fps w/ Arecont Vision cameras at 3-5MP?

 

Define "industry standard"?

 

IQ has a number of models that will 30fps at 1.3MP, 20fps at 2MP, and 12-15fps at 3MP.

[shentim 0]

Hi Soundy,

 

By industry standard I meant that the resolution to fps ratio seems to be about 5MP at 15fps. Much higher than 5MP results in very low fps which basically results in pictures and no longer should be considered video.

 

 

"IQ has a number of models that will 30fps at 1.3MP, 20fps at 2MP, and 12-15fps at 3MP."

 

Not gonna argue with you there, I'm just saying that 30fps is pretty tough to achieve at a high MP and I'm impressed w/ Sanyo's specs. What would you say is the best quality picture that you can get with 15+ fps? Isn't it around 5MP?

[Soundy 1]

From what I've seen so far, yes.

 

But then I'm not fixated on super-high fps - most of our customers don't care about anything over 1fps, and the highest anyone has actually asked us for is 5. People get their minds set that they don't want anything less than 30, but the truth is, most wouldn't be able to tell the difference at 15, and even 10 gives plenty smooth motion - after all, we're talking surveillance here, not making movies (which, ironically, are shot at a mere 24fps).

[shentim 0]

Hi Soundy,

 

I definitely agree with you and also use that line in explaining our product line (why MUST they have 30 fps when real time movies aren't even that way??). You can definitely see the difference between 24 fps and 15 fps though, and a recent bank installation wanted the highest FPS at the highest quality possible.

 

They wanted to monitor some streets and the cars driving by, so if the fps was too low, then it might not have even caught the car driving by!

[megapixel man 0]

I'd have to say that the Sanyo one listed above that can do 30ips at 1920x1080 w/ H.264 compression seems the most impressive - the Avigilon camera specs show very low ips capability on their data sheets.

 

Not very low really:

 

720p = 39ips full res

1080p = 18ips full res

3MP = 12 ips full res

5MP = 12ips full res or 30ips at 1920x1080

 

2MP in PRO range with CCD Sensor and EF mount lens= 30ips full res

4.2MP PRO = 15ips

 

Other than Casino's, Traffic apps, Cash counting etc, where frame by frame may be examined post incident, who really needs 30ips?

 

the 11MP and 16MP PRO's are 5ips and 3ips respectivley, slow ips but for cams that can cover such a large area and high MPx's, not high ips needed.

[Suprfknman 0]

I have the arecont 5mp's and stardot 5mp netcams. The areconts on the highest res setting will do 12-15 ips. The stardots you are lucky if you get 4 or 5 ips at 50% quality but the picture on the stardot is amazing compared to the arecont. I had tried to post a pic on the megapixel pictures thread one day but it wouldnt let me because I havent posted enough. I run a server with dual opteron quads & 16gb memory with milestone software it runs pretty smooth. I used to get a little bog down when the system went to archive, mostly because I had sata 7200 drives they had trouble with heavy read and record at the same time, but I switched over to a 16 disk 10k fiber raid for the recording array and I have a separate array for archive storage

Will

[robert 0]

Have accessed a 16 cam system on 512K adsl link and was happy with the performance.

 

I`d like to see that....

[robert 0]

In terms of framerate and resolution I would like to push the Sanyo HD4000 cameras to full 1080p at 24 or 30fps..

 

 

Why would you need 30fps?? Is it F1 race track?

 

Storage wise, we were counting on the NVR not always having to record the frames, when nothing is happening, but we also have a fairly healthy budget and can arrange for 20-30TB of attached RAID5 storage.

 

Dont forget that if you have 20-30 hard drives, failure rate will be high. They DO fail, even server class drives.

 

You better off using something like 8fps(which is enough) and recording by motion detection only, so having much less hard drives.

[aalbert 0]

 

 

Why would you need 30fps?? Is it F1 race track?

 

 

Because the client has 12-15fps right now, and notes that the framerate is too low... The same client has a 103" plasma, so he takes his video seriously.

 

Dont forget that if you have 20-30 hard drives, failure rate will be high. They DO fail, even server class drives.

 

The capacity quoted would be RAID usable..... Having managed several RAID arrays in the past that had 60 drives per array, I unfortunately know all about drive failure, but also know that it can be dealt with well by having hot spares, and pro-active in monitoring the array.

[VST_Man 1]

there are a few HD IP cams available now.....and I'd see if any nvr manufactures can add one?

 

I use Video Insight and it works great......installing another system now as I type

 

I looked at a Panasonic HD IP camera to use in video production stuff where you can capture HD production video atand control it all from your finger tips...no video camer operators.....just HD IP cams feeeding recorders, small foot print, POE connections or wireless........kinda a pet project in my head.....

 

what your requirements need is money and if you have a unlimited budget you can make it happen.......and if it were me I'd stick to a Manufacyure that will provide the support you need..........Video Insight still, IMHO, has the best support.......period. They are on the higer side of the price but you get what you p