Cable and tools for connection to cameras? Also dvr/monitor

[Wayne02 0]

I am in the market for a dvr type wired system for my property/residence and am considering a lorex system from costco. This system comes with 4 cameras and will go up to 8. It has the combo dvr/monitor, remote viewing, the latest compression H something, and some stuff I can't remember off the top of my head. Costco is our preferred vendor for electronic stuff because of their easy return policy. We have purchased a number of electronic products that have just not worked out for us and it was no problem to return them. I'm not married to costco for this purchase, but it sure would be nice to use them if feasible.

 

I'm in the research phase here and am in the process of finishing the design/requirements of the system and had a couple of questions maybe folks could help with.

 

- I anticipate being able to use the provided cameras in some applications but will need to purchase additional specific cameras for other applications in the design. As such I may find myself needing to make up my own cable runs from the camera to the dvr. What cable is usually used for this and can one purchase the dn connectors and tools to do so?

 

I have the tools to install the regular cable tv screw-on connectors as I used them when running the cable for our tv's. The crimper had some interchangeable jaws of some sort. I've used them on RG58 and RG6 cable if I recall correctly. Can these tools be used to install the BN connectors or does it typically require a different set of tools?

 

- We like the all-in-one lorex dvr/monitor as the UI is pretty easy and it looks like all members of my family could understand it and run it. The drawback it seems to me is that if the monitor goes out then you will need a new monitor and same type of deal if the dvr goes out. Of course when that happens it kind of defeats the purpose of the combined all-in-one.

 

My question is, is it likely that if the monitor went out, the video could be ported to a stand alone monitor? Or if the dvr went out, could a new dvr be purchased and used with the existing still working monitor on the all-in-one? I fully realize this is not an ideal situation but I'm just wondering if when one component of the combo unit quits does the entire unit usually need to be scrapped?

 

Thanks

[Soundy 1]

I can't say for sure, but my suspicion is that these are like most cheap systems and will only work with their own cameras.... at least, without a lot of hacking on your part.

 

The problem with self-contained package systems like this has always been that, for simplicity's sake, they put video, power and audio all into one connector (usually a mini-DIN) and run them all to each camera through a single long cable. In order to attach a "third party" camera to them, you'd have to have the connectors (not hard to find), and know the pinouts (probably much harder to find).

 

Most "real" CCTV cameras you find will use BNC connectors with RG59 or RG6 cable (RG58 will work for shorter runs, but it's not recommended). Assuming this DVR does have BNC inputs available, your crimpers will PROBABLY work with most commercially-available crimp-on BNCs.

 

I'd be surprised if anything Costco sells uses BNC or RCA camera inputs, though.

[TastyHuman 0]

Somebody posted here recently who bought a Lorex system from Costco and was having lots of problems with condensation in the outdoor cameras. FWIW.

[Soundy 1]

Somebody posted here recently who bought a Lorex system from Costco and was having lots of problems with condensation in the outdoor cameras. FWIW.

 

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16962&highlight=lorex

[Wayne02 0]

 

The problem with self-contained package systems like this has always been that, for simplicity's sake, they put video, power and audio all into one connector (usually a mini-DIN) and run them all to each camera through a single long cable. In order to attach a "third party" camera to them, you'd have to have the connectors (not hard to find), and know the pinouts (probably much harder to find).

 

Most "real" CCTV cameras you find will use BNC connectors with RG59 or RG6 cable (RG58 will work for shorter runs, but it's not recommended). Assuming this DVR does have BNC inputs available, your crimpers will PROBABLY work with most commercially-available crimp-on BNCs.

 

I'd be surprised if anything Costco sells uses BNC or RCA camera inputs, though.

I think you are right. This is what it says:

4 x High Resolution Cameras with audio (DIN termination)

“All in oneâ€

[Wayne02 0]

Looking at the back of the unit there was a row of 8 BNC connectors and then above the first four there were 4 DIN connectors.

 

So this is not such a good situation eh?

Thanks

Why would the back of the dvr have 8 BNC connectors and the 4 DIN connectors above the first four?

 

Does this mean that 8 BNC cabled cameras could be use on this dvr?

 

Do bnc cabled cameras usually have a bnc connector at the camera as well or are they hardwired into the camera?

 

The add mentions that the 4 DIN cameras with sound are "powered by the monitor". I thought the typical BNC cabled cameras were also power by the dvr?

 

Does this mean that a typical BNC connected camera does not carry sound and if sound is required a separate cable with mic needs to be run to an audio input on the dvr?

 

Thanks

[Soundy 1]

Can't really say why there'd be 8 more BNC inputs on the DVR... possibly input and daisy-chained output for four more cameras, or inputs for four cameras plus daisy-chained outs for the four included ones. Or even 8 more inputs. The DVR should have a matching number of channel-select buttons for however many inputs there area.

 

Typically, "pro" cameras with BNC out *DO NOT* carry power over the BNC, but use a separate pair of wires to provide 12VDC or 24VAC power. Most also DO NOT have audio support. Designs like "bullet" and dome cameras will usually have a short wire coming out (maybe 6-12") with BNC and power connectors, but that's pretty much the extent that these cameras are "hardwired". The back-end of a typical "box" camera looks something like this:

 

24VAC-powered ones will usually have some sort of spring- or screw-terminals for power, rather than a barrel connector.

[Wayne02 0]

Can't really say why there'd be 8 more BNC inputs on the DVR... possibly input and daisy-chained output for four more cameras, or inputs for four cameras plus daisy-chained outs for the four included ones. Or even 8 more inputs. The DVR should have a matching number of channel-select buttons for however many inputs there area.

 

Thanks very much for the replies. I'll have to go back to costco and look closer, but it sounds like what you may be describing. Four video in BIN paired with four BNC loop outs, and Four video in BNC inputs with no corresponding loop outs.

 

So... The BIN connected cameras don't use RG6 75 ohm cable like the BNC cameras as the BIN need additional wiring for the additional audio and power?

 

But the BIN cameras only require running the single cable from camera to dvr. And the BNC cameras need the addtional 12V wire for every camera along with the RG6 cable for video? (leaving audio out of this).

 

(Thinking out loud here) That means if I decide to go with a stand-alone (non-costco) 8 channel dvr that uses the typical BNC inputs I need to be prepared to run an additional 12v wire for each of the 8 cable runs. What type of wire is used for this 12v? Can it be secured to the RG6 cable with electrical tape or something when pulling the cable/wire? Do these 8 cameras get their 12v from the dvr?

 

Thanks

[Soundy 1]

So... The BIN connected cameras don't use RG6 75 ohm cable like the BNC cameras as the BIN need additional wiring for the additional audio and power?

 

But the BIN cameras only require running the single cable from camera to dvr.

 

If you cut that cable open (not recommended), you'll find probably at least five wires in there - a pair for power, a pair for audio, and a spiral-shield-wrapped "mini-coax" for video. The spiral shield may also double as ground for audio and/or power, or the audio may be a coaxial pair as well - there are as many variations on the theme as there are brands, but the basic concept is the same: multiple conductors inside the one sheath.

 

And the BNC cameras need the addtional 12V wire for every camera along with the RG6 cable for video? (leaving audio out of this).

 

Correct (technically, an additional "power" wire for every camera, as 24VAC is common as well for professional gear).

 

At the risk of confusing the issue, there ARE systems than run power over the coax, but they're relatively rare.

 

(Thinking out loud here) That means if I decide to go with a stand-alone (non-costco) 8 channel dvr that uses the typical BNC inputs I need to be prepared to run an additional 12v wire for each of the 8 cable runs.

 

Correct.

 

What type of wire is used for this 12v?

 

Anything with sufficient wire gauge. Usually 18/2 or better (like speaker wire). We typically use what's called "station wire", which is four conductors - usually red, black, green, and white or yellow, like the old phone wire. We'll usually double-up pairs for better capacity (red+yellow twisted together for +, green and black for ground). That leaves you the ability to split off a pair in future for other purposes (audio, PTZ control, etc.). Since we do a lot of intercom work that requires station wire, it also means we don't have to carry two different types of wire around.

 

Can it be secured to the RG6 cable with electrical tape or something when pulling the cable/wire?

 

It can, although I've found strapping them together along the length usually creates a bigger headache than not.

 

The other option is what's known as "siamese cable", that has the separate coax and 18/2 wire connected together over their entire length by a thin "web". A lot of people here are big on it... I've found it handy in some instances and a PITA in others.

 

Do these 8 cameras get their 12v from the dvr?

 

No. You need either separate "wall wart" style transformers, or a central 12V power supply, like this: http://www.altronix.com/index.php?pid=2&model_num=ALTV1224DC

 

The other option for cabling is to use multi-conductor twisted-pair wire, like Cat-3 or Cat-5, along with video baluns, devices that "balance" the video signal for transmission over non-shielded wiring. The extra pairs allow you to run video, power, audio, and/or control signals over a single cable. It also tends to be a more expensive proposition up-front, when you add in the cost of the baluns, but it can be more effective in some installations. Probably not a feasible option in this case, I'm throwing it in just in the sake of completeness. (Actually, I've run video AND power over a single piece of station wire as well - it's not the ideal solution, but it's nice to have the capability for those really wacky situations).

[Wayne02 0]

Anything with sufficient wire gauge. Usually 18/2 or better (like speaker wire). We typically use what's called "station wire", which is four conductors - usually red, black, green, and white or yellow, like the old phone wire. We'll usually double-up pairs for better capacity (red+yellow twisted together for +, green and black for ground). That leaves you the ability to split off a pair in future for other purposes (audio, PTZ control, etc.). Since we do a lot of intercom work that requires station wire, it also means we don't have to carry two different types of wire around.

Thanks. I think I have a partial roll of that station wire around here somewhere. Seems like I used it when I put the wired alarm system in the house and the shop years ago. Same thing with the cat5, partial roll left over from the network install.

 

This type of wire would not be appropriate for the outdoor locations where the camera and wire would be exposed to rain?

 

So this wire uses a barrel type connector to connect with the camera? Crimp-on type?

[Soundy 1]

Never had a problem with station wire and rain. Most 12VDC cameras I've used (especially the cheaper consumer-grade ones) come with their own "wall-wart" adapter - I'll just snip the wire on that, splice the adapter at one end and the connector at the camera end. If it's outdoor, I'll just put a little blob of dielectric grease (often sold for use on battery terminals to prevent corrosion) into the crimp connectors, a bit on the inside of the BNC, and then wrap everything tightly in electrical tape.

[Wayne02 0]

Looking at the specs for this system

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11468686&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|

 

It says:

Video input: Composite 1.0 V p-p/75 ohms BNCx8

Is that input for the standard or typical BNC connected camera?

[Soundy 1]

Looking at the specs for this system

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11468686&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|

 

It says:

Video input: Composite 1.0 V p-p/75 ohms BNCx8

Is that input for the standard or typical BNC connected camera?

 

Yup!

[Wayne02 0]

If it's outdoor, I'll just put a little blob of dielectric grease (often sold for use on battery terminals to prevent corrosion) into the crimp connectors, a bit on the inside of the BNC, and then wrap everything tightly in electrical tape.

The 12V connector shown on the camera in the picture above is a BNC connector like the RG6 BNC except smaller?

[Soundy 1]

If it's outdoor, I'll just put a little blob of dielectric grease (often sold for use on battery terminals to prevent corrosion) into the crimp connectors, a bit on the inside of the BNC, and then wrap everything tightly in electrical tape.

The 12V connector shown on the camera in the picture above is a BNC connector like the RG6 BNC except smaller?

 

Nope, it's one of these:

 

[Sawbones 0]

 

These are some of the connectors you're likely to see. From left to right:

 

female coax to female coax

female BNC to male RCA

male BNC to female RCA

male BNC to male BNC

male BNC to female coax

male 2.5mm barrel connector (used for 12v DC)

female 2.5mm barrel connector (again, used for 12v DC)

 

The latter two are what you will use to pass power to your cameras, like so. I've circled the two connectors that come out of the bullet camera in the center. The top one is the 12v barrel connector, and the bottom one is the BNC-female connector for video.

 

 

If the connector they're using looks like a glorified phone plug or S-video cable, I'd get something else.

[Soundy 1]

 

These are some of the connectors you're likely to see. From left to right:

 

female coax to female coax

female BNC to male RCA

male BNC to female RCA

male BNC to male BNC

male BNC to female coax

male 2.5mm barrel connector (used for 12v DC)

female 2.5mm barrel connector (again, used for 12v DC)

 

Actually, the screw-type connectors on #1 and #5 there are called "F-connectors" - F59 for RG59 cable (typically used for CATV) and F56 for RG56 (usually used for satellite).

 

"Coax" is a bit of a broad term for connectors, as BNCs are most commonly used with coax cable as well. Technically, F, BNC and RCA are all coaxial connectors (along with a few other designs you won't likely come across in CCTV).

[ak357 0]

 

Actually, the screw-type connectors on #1 and #5 there are called "F-connectors" - F59 for RG59 cable (typically used for CATV) and F56 for RG56 (usually used for satellite).

 

quote]

 

U mean RG6 right ?

[Soundy 1]

 

Actually, the screw-type connectors on #1 and #5 there are called "F-connectors" - F59 for RG59 cable (typically used for CATV) and F56 for RG56 (usually used for satellite).

 

 

U mean RG6 right ?

 

Er, right... RG56 is generally for CB/ham radio use.

[Sawbones 0]

I should have known any loose sh*t on my part would be corrected by you fine gentlemen.

 

You're right, of course... those are F-connectors. I will be more precise the next time.

[Wayne02 0]

Thanks very much for the replies and taking the time to post pictures, very helpful.

 

I found the roll of coax and it is RG6/U type 75ohm quadshield IC 18 awg.

Will that work for the video to the cameras?

 

I also got out the crimpers and they are Ideal crimpmasters but it looks like I need to get the die set for BNC.

 

Of the die sets on this page, I need #30-578 for BNC to RG6 quadshield?

http://www.mytoolstore.com/ideal/ide08-11.html

 

Also, as I pencil out the design I need to make a decision on routing of the RG6 from the dvr in the house to the 2-3 camera locations in my shop building. The shop building is next to the house and there is a conduit that I put in the ground when I ran the power to shop. The conduit currently has two cat5, two RG6, and one bell wire which I put in there for possible future use. Currently one cat5 and one RG6 is in use. There is room in this conduit for 4 RG6 and it would be an easy pull from house to shop, however, the drawback is the length of run from dvr to shop cameras would be about 125'.

 

The other option requires trenching across a short width of gravel sidewalk, through some landscaping and running some conduit from the end of my house (where the room that will house the dvr is located) to the shop. This is more work than just pulling cable through existing conduit but the length of run from dvr to shop cameras goes down to about 50'.

 

What are the limitations on the length of run between dvr and camera in terms of signal quality and such?

 

Thanks

[Wayne02 0]

Anybody?

[survtech 0]

RG-6 CATV cable (which is what you have), is not really well-suited to CCTV. You might get away with it for short runs, less than 100ft, but you really need CCTV cable; which has a pure copper center conductur and 95% copper braid shield. Quad-shield CATV cable has a copper clad steel center conductor and steel or aluminum shield.

[Soundy 1]

survtech is on the mark there...

 

As for run length, RG59 coax is good for several hundred feet - I've had 400' runs with no problem. Passive baluns over Cat5e are good for anywhere from 1000' to 4000', depending on which manufacturers' claims you believe... active baluns can extend that significantly.