Need help designing an IP camera system

[gfdcxgfd 0]

Hello people of CCTV Forums,

 

Long story short. I wanna put a camera system for my house. But want to try a different approach. Instead of using the conventional analog cctv systems that most all of us install, i want digital!

 

I want to install megapixel cameras. Not sure exactly how many but preferably 2mp or higher. I need the ability to see in the night with 3 cameras. (Rest are gonna be indoors like garage and near entrances.)

 

My questions:

Where is somewhere I can purchase some cameras that are cost effective. I have seen those cheapo ip cameras which are around 150 bucks but I don't think those will work as they are "only" VGA resolution. I would like something "decent" maybe 1024 x 768 or something?

 

 

How can I hook up all of the cameras to a central pc in a house? switches I assume? I am thinking around 4-6 cameras total. Would I need a NVR card or can I just hook up the cameras to a switch and have it record to a computer somehow? (Computer specs are Intel Core 2 Duo E8500, 3GB RAM, 2TB HDD, XFX PVT94GZAH2 GeForce 9400 GT 1GB VIdeo Card.)

 

Another issue is that my internet is a problem, sometimes it works sometimes it goes out. So would the recording stop if the internet stops? Is there a way to avoid this? I can sacrifice being able to watch remotely. I have comcast home 6mbps dl, 384kbps up.

 

How about lens sizes? I need maybe 2 cameras that are wide like 3.6 or lower if possible. and the rest just whatever the basic is.

 

 

Budget.....lets just put that we are in a recession so I cant go all out.

 

(Also any body have pictures of any IP cameras you have installed? Pictures and model number would help greatly in determining what would be best for me. )

 

Keep in mind i have never installed an ip camera system but hopefully the experience i have from installing analog cctv systems, computer building, and networking can give me a head start. Also i did some research on my own but wasn't too happy with the price I was coming up with. (Nearly 700 bucks a camera....not affordable.......for me at least. )

[VST_Man 1]

you ned to built it backwards. start with your storage requirement; 30 days? 10? 7? then calc the number of cams storage rate(s) to get you storage numbers. If your looking at 2mp and higher you'll need a large bucket.

 

i like to design ip/nvr to the best bang for the buck. lot's of 1.3mp cams available under $1000 (Arecont 3130, acti 7411, ect.), some under $500 (axis 207mw). not all cameras are alike. ie. the 207mw is decent for well lit areas but sucks in low light. Arecont 3130 is all around decent, along with the Acti 7411. your budget will drive your purchase. and, you need to apply the right camera (capabilities) into the proper location(s).

 

then you have to pick a decent nvr software manufacture. I use Video Insight for my high end corp installs and avermedia for budget. again, budget & requirements drive the bus..............

[thewireguys 3]

I would recommended ACTi for your project and price point. If you go with Arecont your going to be spending around 1000$ a camera (camera, lens and housing). ACTi you will be looking at $600-700 range but they only have 1.3 megapixel cameras.

 

I can recommend the ACM-1231 and the ACM-7411 for outdoors and low light. No housing or lens required with these cameras.

 

You do not need a DVR card with IP cameras. You need a computer, NVR software, POE switch, and cameras.

 

Also for a cheap recording solution that works check out the NUUO MiniNVRs. For under $1000 you can get a 4 channel NVR with 1TB of storage in a plug and play solution.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Guest

[gfdcxgfd 0]

First off thanks for taking the time to reply folks.

 

Next up to answer a few questions:

 

1. Storage of 2 weeks is fine, 10fps @ 1280x 1024 resolution.

2. I will look into the avermedia nvr software. But just curious anyone have experience with the Luxriot or Nuuo NVR software?

3. I will look at the models ya'll posted when i get some time.

 

Thanks for the information. I will keep ya'll updated with what happens next.

[Soundy 1]

1280x1024 is only 1.3MP. According to one handy calculator, 1.3MP @ 10fps for 14 days, with H.264 compression at "good" quality, will require about 160GB per camera (assuming 50% record activity and average scene complexity). You'll probably find dropping it down to 5fps is sufficient; remember, you're recording for security, not for making movies.

 

IQEye is another good brand of megapixel camera you might look at - they have several models in the sub-$1000 range, right down to around the $500 range. They also sell cameras bundled with lenses, for one-stop shopping - they have a 4-10mm lens that's a good "generic" zoom range, as well as some 2.5-7mm models, and even a 1.6-3.5mm if you want to get ridiculously wide.

 

Internet stability won't matter to the cameras, as long as they're on the same switch/router as the NVR. And no, no special card is required, other than maybe a 1Gbit network card to handle the traffic (assuming you have a gigabit switch or a router with gigabit ports, of course).

 

For networking them all, I can highly recommend the Linksys SFE1000P switch - it has eight 10/100 ports with Power-over-Ethernet (so the cameras don't require a separate power run), as well as two gigabit ports to connect your NVR, and some NAS storage if need be. I've used several of these units now for exactly that purpose (anywhere from four to seven 1.3MP IQ511 cameras, a Vigil hybrid DVR, and 6.5TB of storage on a network RAID5 array) and they've been stellar performers. One of the extra ports can be used to connect to your home LAN (ie. your router) for remote access.

 

I know this is all starting to sound really spendy and you're being budget-conscious, but the simple fact is, megapixel video is still on the higher end of the industry. The cameras have come down a LOT in price in the last couple years (the IQ cameras we use most have dropped to about a third of the price they were two years ago), but there's still not much overlap between the low end there, and the high end of analog cameras - the benefit is that you usually don't need as many of them.

 

Storage is getting ridiculously cheap as well (you can get a terabyte drive for just over $100), but with megapixel, you still need a lot more of it. Consider that max capture resolution for NTSC analog will be around 720x480, and 1.3MP at 1280x1024 is *four times* the resolution, with the equivalent increase in storage requirements (assuming the same compression type). Go to 2, 3, 5MP and beyond, and, well...

 

And when it comes to the networking, cheaping out will just lead to headaches, as low-end switches (like a $40 5-port 10/100 Belkin) won't handle the traffic very well of four+ cameras going at 10fps. The Linksys I mentioned retails for around $300 but is well worth it, based on my experience.

 

Not trying to talk you out of your plans, mind you - just injecting a little realism, since you did mention budget: what you want to do will NOT be cheap.

 

The one bright side is that you don't need a ridiculously powerful machine to handle all this, as the heavy processing is pretty much all done at the camera - all the NVR needs to do is file all the data away and facilitate looking it up later.

 

For software, you can take a look at Vigil - they have a downloadable 30-day demo available (www.3xlogic.com), and if you should ever want to add analog cameras at a later date, it can also operate as a hybrid system (with supported capture cards).

[cctv_down_under 0]

I want to install megapixel cameras. Not sure exactly how many but preferably 2mp or higher. I need the ability to see in the night with 3 cameras. (Rest are gonna be indoors like garage and near entrances.)

 

Keep in mind that there are many and varying types of IP cameras using different technologies, if it is a CMOS CCD then its unlikley (thsi is not a blanket statement though) that you will get the low light perfomance you are after MP cameras (again not a blanket statement) are generally worse in low light than standard CCD Cameras and sometimes it would be more beneficial to put in sensor lights than paying for an expensive low light MP camera.

 

IP cameras can be bought just about anywhere but I guess you get what you pay for - the main concern is going to be housing them outside, if you intend on using a camera that needs a housing be carefull as there are considerations with IP cameras that are not a worry with analogue...for instance becasue the compression and web serving is done at the camera itself then it will get very warm, make sure your housing encompasses cooling for the camera if you are in a warmer climate.

 

How can I hook up all of the cameras to a central pc in a house? switches I assume?

 

Yes -it is actually easier to set up IP cameras than analogue in this way, you can use a POE switch, this means you can power the camera from the same network port that it uses for its data, you can also use what is known as an IN-LINE injector to provide power without changing your current switches - hubs - routers etc

 

Would I need a NVR card or can I just hook up the cameras to a switch and have it record to a computer somehow? (Computer specs are Intel Core 2 Duo E8500, 3GB RAM, 2TB HDD, XFX PVT94GZAH2 GeForce 9400 GT 1GB VIdeo Card.)

 

There are four ways (well actually more) of doing CCTV you can do it completely as analogue and record on VCR - Very old hat

 

You can record with a digital capture card or standalone DVR - converting analogue cameras to digital - Older Technology

 

You can do the same as above but using a Hybrid System - this allows for IP cameras and analogue to be recorded on the same device - Most Current

 

If you intend on going fully IP then you should not need a card because the compression is done at the camera - normally you would buy some software and then just network the IP cameras.

 

There is a downfall to this design though......some DVR's that are hybrid, incorporate a seperate IP Camera Network Card - the advantage is that if you bring the IP cameras directly back to this card, they go directly to the DVR without affecting the bandwidth of your network - this can also be done by bridging multiple network cards on your PC running the IP software.

 

Another issue is that my internet is a problem, sometimes it works sometimes it goes out. So would the recording stop if the internet stops? Is there a way to avoid this? I can sacrifice being able to watch remotely. I have comcast home 6mbps dl, 384kbps up.

 

If you have all the cameras locally and are on a local LAN, then unless you have a hardware failure it should not stop recording - that said THIS is the drawback of a lot of IP Camera solutions, in that a loss of network or a network virus can easily bring a system down, currently a lot of manufactorers are working towards local storage at the camera to avoid this issue in that if the network goes down the camera will store at the camera until the network returns to life...currently very few offer this and even less offer replication of the data back to the server.

 

Watching rmeotely should not affect local recording though.

 

(Also any body have pictures of any IP cameras you have installed? Pictures and model number would help greatly in determining what would be best for me. )

 

The smart thing to do is to test the camera you want to buy.....because it is an IP camera your supplier should have a demo already configured, after all it makes no difference if your on a LAN or not you should be able to see the quality you will get even if at a lower speed.

 

Keep in mind i have never installed an ip camera system but hopefully the experience i have from installing analog cctv systems, computer building, and networking can give me a head start. Also i did some research on my own but wasn't too happy with the price I was coming up with. (Nearly 700 bucks a camera....not affordable.......for me at least. )

 

You will find people are still recouping the cost of development, so IP cameras are fairly expensive at present.......give it a few years.

[ipman 0]

Arecont 3130 is all around decent, along with

 

I would second Arecont, but not sure about 3130.

 

I have 2 and 3 mega pixel cameras from Arecont and hardly can see any difference.

 

You know, it is kind of the same with Digital Photo Cameras with 5MP and with 8 MP

 

The lens FL and storage space I would calculate using JVSG software.

 

About the PC & NVR. Core2Duo is enough for such ammount of cameras.

[Soundy 1]

Yeah, the jump from 3.1MP (typically 2048x1536) to 5MP (typically 2560x1920) isn't really that great an increase in resolution... to actually double both axes, you're looking at a FOUR-TIMES increase in total resolution. Going from 1.3MP (typically 1280x1024) to 5MP would be about that size of a jump.

[ipman 0]

Going from 1.3MP (typically 1280x1024) to 5MP would be about that size of a jump.

 

Exactly!

 

I have seen quite a step forward from 0.3MP (VGA) to 1.3 MP and no such step from 2 to 3 MP.

 

Additionally I think CCD/CMOS senor size matters as well.

 

 

When manufacturer increases the MegaPixels 4 times, they should also double the sensor size.

[Soundy 1]

Going from 1.3MP (typically 1280x1024) to 5MP would be about that size of a jump.

 

Exactly!

 

I have seen quite a step forward from 0.3MP (VGA) to 1.3 MP and no such step from 2 to 3 MP.

 

Well, there's nothing wrong with intermediate steps... 1.3MP is an easy place to start, since if you're going to go "megapixel", by definition that means >1,000,000, and 1280x1024 is a pretty good "common" ratio (actually, 1280x960 would maintain the proper 4:3 aspect as well as being an exact doubling of VGA's 640x480)... but the next FULL step from there is 5MP, which would be another substantial price jump as well. It's a pretty hard either/or sell, so you need to have something in between.

 

Additionally I think CCD/CMOS senor size matters as well.

 

 

When manufacturer increases the MegaPixels 4 times, they should also double the sensor size.

 

Well, you could always look at Arecont cameras... the first one I saw was using a Canon 70-210mm f/4L lens (the lens was probably worth more than the camera - being a Canon DSLR owner, I was drooling ) and had a sensor that looked about the same as the one in my 300D.

 

Of course, there are parallels here to the "megapixel race" in consumer cameras, where small-sensored point-and-shoot cameras are pushing 12-15MP because it's an easy selling point, while suffering from poor low-light performance (in particular) compared to SLR formats because the sensors - and thus the pixels - are so tiny.

[gfdcxgfd 0]

Hello guys, First off very sorry for the delayed response, the website was down and then I didn't have time to properly follow up.

 

But anyways, here is what I'm looking at:

 

I ordered my first mega pixel camera, it's a 1.3mp indoor dome. I am running the Nuuo software that the camera came with. I just used 10/100 switches temporarily because I forgot to order the 10/100/1000 switch most likely I'm getting the trendnet switch for around 30 bucks. Also since there I have bills to pay, I'm just sticking with my regular intel Pentium dual core desktop until i can save around 1300 for a "decent" system.

 

So here is what I think, overall quality was decent could have been better though, for example colors are amazing but when pointing at a white object (such as my work van) the image kinda gets washed out, tried messing with the settings but I would have to lower the exposure and brightness and stuff and it didn't look as good as i wanted it to be.

Takes up ALOT of storage! 1.3 mp @ 1280 x 1024 @ 10fps = ~1.02 GB per 6 minutes!

Another issue I had is that everytime I unplug the power or network cord and plug it back in to "simulate" a power outage the camera for some odd reason didn't come back on the Nuuo software automatically, i had to restart the entire system, odd any ideas?

I still have alot of testing to do with the software and camera, I'll hopefully post some pictures in the coming week to share with ya'll

 

*EDIT*

Also thanks for the suggestion on the other cameras, but they were kinda outta my budget of ~400 per camera, what I'm going to end up doing is try to fit this in a standard cctv housing with heater/blower, hopefully that would work better. Also I'm looking into the vigil software from 3xlogic for potential customers who may want ip and analog on one dvr.

[Soundy 1]

Unfortunately most megapixel cameras don't support auto-iris lenses, which limits their ability to handle a wide range of lighting conditions. If you're finding bright scenes are washed out, you may need to dial down the iris on your lens a bit (most will be labeled "O" for open, to "C" for closed - move it more towards C).

 

Keep in mind that a cheap MP camera ("cheap" being relative to the MP price range) will not compare to an expensive analog camera, the same way a cheap analog camera won't compare to an expensive one. MP cameras start at a higher price because you get more resolution, but if you also want the low-light performance, wider dynamic range, and other things that cost more in an analog camera, well... they'll cost more in an MP camera as well.

[gfdcxgfd 0]

Unfortunately most megapixel cameras don't support auto-iris lenses, which limits their ability to handle a wide range of lighting conditions. If you're finding bright scenes are washed out, you may need to dial down the iris on your lens a bit (most will be labeled "O" for open, to "C" for closed - move it more towards C).

 

Keep in mind that a cheap MP camera ("cheap" being relative to the MP price range) will not compare to an expensive analog camera, the same way a cheap analog camera won't compare to an expensive one. MP cameras start at a higher price because you get more resolution, but if you also want the low-light performance, wider dynamic range, and other things that cost more in an analog camera, well... they'll cost more in an MP camera as well.

 

I'll trying screwing with it more when i install it hopefully later this week.

Also, your right you do get what you pay for.

also the camera im using is a pixord p415, The next camera I order will be an ACTi ACM-3401. (Probably order it in a month or so...)[/b]

[thewireguys 3]

You could save alot of money if you went with the NUUO MiniNVR. For less then $1000 you can have a 4 channel NVR that supports 5 megapixel cameras and h.264. Pair that up with a ACTi 1231 or 4701 for outdoor needs and 3401 or 4201 for indoors and you will have very cost effective megapixel camera system. And do your self a favor and get a good switch like the ones that where suggested.

 

http://www.nuuo.com/product.php?id=13

[gfdcxgfd 0]

You could save alot of money if you went with the NUUO MiniNVR. For less then $1000 you can have a 4 channel NVR that supports 5 megapixel cameras and h.264. Pair that up with a ACTi 1231 or 4701 for outdoor needs and 3401 or 4201 for indoors and you will have very cost effective megapixel camera system. And do your self a favor and get a good switch like the ones that where suggested.

 

http://www.nuuo.com/product.php?id=13

 

Hey sorry for the late response been busy!

But yeah man the miniNVR looks pretty good I'm going to look into it more as I find a client that needs ip cameras. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

Anyways what do ya'll think of the quality?

 

(Quote from the other post I made)

The picture is AMAZING when there is not alot of sunlight but when the damn Florida sun shines its freaking horrible! I'll try and get some pictures when I can.

 

*Note this is picture taken when I was installing an analog system, I decided to see what the ip camera would look like. Its decent but I don't think it would work for my clients.

 

 

[zmxtech 0]

cant read the plates ? its all washed out and heavily compressed

 

[thewireguys 3]

You could save alot of money if you went with the NUUO MiniNVR. For less then $1000 you can have a 4 channel NVR that supports 5 megapixel cameras and h.264. Pair that up with a ACTi 1231 or 4701 for outdoor needs and 3401 or 4201 for indoors and you will have very cost effective megapixel camera system. And do your self a favor and get a good switch like the ones that where suggested.

 

http://www.nuuo.com/product.php?id=13

 

Hey sorry for the late response been busy!

But yeah man the miniNVR looks pretty good I'm going to look into it more as I find a client that needs ip cameras. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

Anyways what do ya'll think of the quality?

 

(Quote from the other post I made)

The picture is AMAZING when there is not alot of sunlight but when the damn Florida sun shines its freaking horrible! I'll try and get some pictures when I can.

 

*Note this is picture taken when I was installing an analog system, I decided to see what the ip camera would look like. Its decent but I don't think it would work for my clients.

 

 

 

What camera is that?

[gfdcxgfd 0]

cant read the plates ? its all washed out and heavily compressed

 

 

Yeah I know man it sucks! I zoomed in more to get the plate but the damn sun kills the view when it is the afternoon.

 

@thewireguys: Its the Pixord P415M. Bad software! NO TECH SUPPORT! (I registered as an installer and they gave just very little tech support and a broken english FAQ)

They give you a STRIPPED version of the Nuuo software if you buy over 10 cameras. I bought form a middle man. I was directed to this distributor thru the fine folks at Pixord. This "distrubutor" is based in NJ.

 

All in all the camera is good but only when there is no sun out. Any more questions? I might have some more pictures, let me see.

 

 

*EDIT*

Also notice the WHITE COLORS!......kinda sucks huh?

 

Oh and cost was just a bit over $300 with the shipping.

[rory 0]

Does it have an Iris, backlighting or AGC adjustment? What happens to the image when the sun is out?

[gfdcxgfd 0]

Does it have an Iris, backlighting or AGC adjustment? What happens to the image when the sun is out?

 

Rory: I believe it does have AGC. I do not think there is anything for the iris or back lighting.... I'll try and get a picture tommorow of what I meant by crappy image when the sun is out.

 

I messed around with the exposure/brightness/contrast settings and no combination would help me get a decent picture in the sun time.

 

 

 

 

 

FULL SPECS: http://www.pixord.com/product/p415m.asp#spec

 

Specifications

 

Video Compression MPEG-4 / MJPEG Dual Streaming

Video Resolution SXGA: 1280 x 1024

VGA: 640 x 480

QVGA: 320 x 240

QQVGA: 160 x 120

Bit Rate 32K ~ 2M bits/sec (CBR/VBR configurable)

Frame Rate Up to 30 FPS @ VGA / QVGA / QQVGA, 10 FPS @ SXGA

Image Device 1/4â€

[rory 0]

down here i always disable the AGC and Back lighting as its too bright in the day with our sun.

 

No physical adjustments on the lens or camera housing?

Check the night mode? 1/4" CMOS ouch.

[gfdcxgfd 0]

down here i always disable the AGC and Back lighting as its too bright in the day with our sun.

 

No physical adjustments on the lens or camera housing?

Check the night mode? 1/4" CMOS ouch.

 

The AGC settings I think are :

4x

8x

16x

32x

64x

I think I have it on 8x or 16x in that picture.

 

As far as PHYSICAL adjustments goes, only the manual zoom and focus ****.

Also the housing was an indoor housing. I just took the camera out of the dome enclosure and put it inside a heater/blower outdoor enclosure.

 

Now your probably saying "well no **** the image is bad! your using a camera made for the indoors, outside!" I'll try and upload a pic of what it looks like in the indoors tomorrow as it is equally worse!

 

Also I ordered 4 cameras and each one of them had the same results so I know it wasn't a defective lens or camera.

 

Overall the customer was happy with it, he just wanted something with a higher resolution than regular cameras....and also I gave him a discount after I saw the results myself. (I didn't think its fair to charge the guy what I was charging for the quality the cameras were producing) I also offered to replace the cameras with better ones....(maybe ACTi or Vivotek) but he said he was fine.......so you know the saying the customer is always right!

 

 

*Edit*

Rory, I think the lens on the cameras I got said something like "1/3 aspherical cctv lens"

[thewireguys 3]

Hum..... I don't think the image is that bad, looks like a $300 MP camera image ..... I can make out the plate on the white van fine. The truck is LP is meaning less so that doesn't count. I am guessing the speed they are going is around 5mph so nothing special but I have seen worse.

 

What do you expect for that price?

[rory 0]

Just disable AGC and you should be set

I dont know if Im looking at another image but I can see the license plate just fine.

[thewireguys 3]

Just disable AGC and you should be set

I dont know if Im looking at another image but I can see the license plate just fine.

 

I was thinking the samething