benhutuk 0 Posted July 10, 2009 Recently Mike Newton, CEO of Dedicated Micros, wrote an article about how IP CCTV solutions were expensive and unreliable compared to analogue / hybrid solutions. Mark Harraway, Country Manager of Controlware UK, responds to Mike’s observations and provides an alternative cost breakdown for a 750 camera system using IP which is significantly more cost effective than the solution proposed by Mike Newton. What do you think? Is IP the way forward or is a hybrid CCTV world better? If anyone is interested in reading the articles in full and the 750 camera cost breakdown mentioned above feel free to email me - bhutchins@cware.co.uk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted July 10, 2009 Theres an argument for both systems in a setup like that, but one thing IP reps fail to remember when they try to debate these kind of things ... so called analog CCTV also involves IP based systems; best of both worlds, $30 camera where a $30 camera will work, cant get that in an IP Camera. Hybrid, perhaps a mix in this situation. Anyway .. why not just post a link to this article? Also DM is hardly something to base a price comparison on ... only saying. I value everybodys opinion on this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benhutuk 0 Posted July 10, 2009 (edited) I think you should hold fire until you have actually read what the articles are about, then debate away. I am getting them on the web and a link should be ready next week. BTW what do you mean analog systems also involve IP systems? That just makes them hybrid systems... You are joking about paying $30 for a camera I hope. These articles are talking about professional systems used in town centres, airports etc. Not a couple of web cams and some free software... Just to be clear. Edited July 10, 2009 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted July 10, 2009 Just about every CCTV System these days has at the least a basic network interface, and can be assigned an IP address. The features available will be dependant on the model in the case of a stand alone system, but in the case of a PC based system (eg. Geo) the features can be endless. As to the cameras, there is not one single brand or type of camera in the world that will cover every single location and if someone thinks there is then they definitely shouldnt be in the CCTV industry. Therefore in the 750 camera system (or 4, 8, 16 etc system) there may be non essential locations where a $30 can work just fine. You would be amazed at the quality of some of these extremely cheap import cameras now adays - some of course are just plain awful but thats another topic. Why put a $1000 camera where a $30, or $100 camera will work just fine ... . Another thing to think about for either system .. why even wast the publics money in this time of economic depression when the criminals dont check for cameras anyway? Just a thought to ponder on ... Essentially though all they are, are some webcams and software ... unless you can prove otherwise? Ive yet to see a REAL demo from an IP rep ... yet .. you might surprise me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted July 10, 2009 BTW I think we already agreed (if not on everything) ... DM charges outrageous prices IMO. But they can .. and so do Pano and a bunch of them, regardless of what I think of it .. heck Bahamas Customs charges me 60% Customs Duty on auto parts I bring in here from america .. sucks but I have no choice .. when looking at a CCTV system .. one has a choice so perhaps they will choose your system instead. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benhutuk 0 Posted July 10, 2009 Just about every CCTV System these days has at the least a basic network interface, and can be assigned an IP address. The features available will be dependant on the model in the case of a stand alone system, but in the case of a PC based system (eg. Geo) the features can be endless. As to the cameras, there is not one single brand or type of camera in the world that will cover every single location and if someone thinks there is then they definitely shouldnt be in the CCTV industry. Therefore in the 750 camera system (or 4, 8, 16 etc system) there may be non essential locations where a $30 can work just fine. You would be amazed at the quality of some of these extremely cheap import cameras now adays - some of course are just plain awful but thats another topic. Why put a $1000 camera where a $30, or $100 camera will work just fine ... . Another thing to think about for either system .. why even wast the publics money in this time of economic depression when the criminals dont check for cameras anyway? Just a thought to ponder on ... Essentially though all they are, are some webcams and software ... unless you can prove otherwise? Ive yet to see a REAL demo from an IP rep ... yet .. you might surprise me I didnt say one type of camera could cover every location? Why not use a $30 camera? Because most town centres, airports etc. require hi spec products in robust housings. At that price point you dont get the build quality or resolution you need, plus over in Europe land we have something called CE standards - if the product is not tested then you can import it but you cant use it. I am not an IP camera rep but if I was I would gladly jump at the chance to come and demo for you in the Bahamas... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benhutuk 0 Posted July 10, 2009 BTW I think we already agreed (if not on everything) ... DM charges outrageous prices IMO. But they can .. and so do Pano and a bunch of them, regardless of what I think of it .. heck Bahamas Customs charges me 60% Customs Duty on auto parts I bring in here from america .. sucks but I have no choice .. when looking at a CCTV system .. one has a choice so perhaps they will choose your system instead. I think you are missing the point. You seem to be under the misconception that I am a rep; firstly trying to sell cameras, now trying to sell you IP systems. I understand there are different levels of CCTV system and can see where you are coming from but $30 cameras in town centres is just not an option. This is about technology. I hope we are clear on that and can move the discussion forward on that basis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted July 10, 2009 I think you are missing the point. You seem to be under the misconception that I am a rep; firstly trying to sell cameras, now trying to sell you IP systems. I understand there are different levels of CCTV system and can see where you are coming from but $30 cameras in town centres is just not an option. This is about technology. I hope we are clear on that and can move the discussion forward on that basis. Ok when you get a chance lets see the article, im interested. Reason I suggested you are a rep is that it seems your company Controlware UK sells these "IP" systems? As for $30 cameras, if a camera costs $100 and I buy 100 of them I can get them for at least $50. .. just an example .. id like to see what brand and type of cameras were quoted in both cases though, personally Ive used hundreds of different cameras over the years, ranging from Extreme CCTV (derwent in the UK, now Bosch) to the cheapest camera on the market. I go back to VCR tape days to the one of the first CCTV Systems that had LAN but dont get me wrong ive been involved in networking and computer hardware well before that and for years i was deep into software programming. Alot of IT companies have jumped on the CCTV bandwagon since the introduction of cameras with network connections, coming up with nicknames like "analog systems", "IP Cameras", etc, with little to no experience in the video surveillance industry or the security industry for that matter, so excuse us when we are not easily convinced. IP is not a new technology no matter what they claim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benhutuk 0 Posted July 10, 2009 Ok when you get a chance lets see the article, im interested. Reason I suggested you are a rep is that it seems your company Controlware UK sells these "IP" systems? As for $30 cameras, if a camera costs $100 and I buy 100 of them I can get them for at least $50. .. just an example .. id like to see what brand and type of cameras were quoted in both cases though, personally Ive used hundreds of different cameras over the years, ranging from Extreme CCTV (derwent in the UK, now Bosch) to the cheapest camera on the market. I go back to VCR tape days to the one of the first CCTV Systems that had LAN but dont get me wrong ive been involved in networking and computer hardware well before that and for years i was deep into software programming. Alot of IT companies have jumped on the CCTV bandwagon since the introduction of cameras with network connections, coming up with nicknames like "analog systems", "IP Cameras", etc, with little to no experience in the video surveillance industry or the security industry for that matter, so excuse us when we are not easily convinced. IP is not a new technology no matter what they claim I should have given you our credentials.... Controlware are an International company with an HQ in Germany, I just happen to work for the UK sub, we are 25 years old. Yes we are originally from a networking background and jumped on the "bandwagon" before any of the major CCTV players moved to supplying IP kit in 1997. We owned a company called VCS who we sold to Bosch in 2005. So we have been involved in the security industry for more than 10 years. We call ourselves a value added distributor, which basically means we work with installer and integrator partners to deliver solutions. Because we are independent we provide the best components (cameras, management etc.) for individual requirements and design, comission and support solutions. Reference sites include St Pancras International, Charles de gaulle Airport, Munich Airport, numerous town centres, schools etc. so we do have plenty of experience. You seem very muched focused on cameras, I am sure at $100 they serve your market very well but you are not coming close to the right price point for a proffessional town centre camera be it analog or IP. You dont have to go so far back to remember VCR's, some UK councils still use them! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kensplace 0 Posted July 10, 2009 I remember VCS, didnt they make the VICO product, for transmitting cctv over isdn/phone lines etc. Still got one of those knocking around somewhere, but no idea where the software is for it and bosch does not seem to have it available for download any more. Not that it would be of use to me now in the age of broadband, no need for isdn now... just for nostalgia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benhutuk 0 Posted July 10, 2009 I remember VCS, didnt they make the VICO product, for transmitting cctv over isdn/phone lines etc. Still got one of those knocking around somewhere, but no idea where the software is for it and bosch does not seem to have it available for download any more. Not that it would be of use to me now in the age of broadband, no need for isdn now... just for nostalgia yep that was a VCS product... People still use them, we sometimes get calls about them. There were also VLP's.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted July 10, 2009 You seem very muched focused on cameras, I am sure at $100 they serve your market very well but you are not coming close to the right price point for a proffessional town centre camera be it analog or IP. I use ALL kinds of cameras, $30 and $3000 ones. And yes once upon a time I was stuck on only using the most expensive too (incorrectly thinking they were better, or more professional) .. but times changed and you go with the flow. So any luck with the article yet? Why post a message saying you have an article but not the article itself? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted July 10, 2009 He's done the same in a number of groups on LinkedIn. There have been a couple of complaints that he is not following up with sending the articles or links or whatever after people have registered on the Controlware site he links everyone to. I would love to know what their arguments are but apparently, he or Controlware are just collecting email addresses without providing the info they are touting. That is the moral equivalent of spam in my book. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted July 10, 2009 I should have given you our credentials.... Controlware are an International company with an HQ in Germany, I just happen to work for the UK sub, we are 25 years old. Yes we are originally from a networking background and jumped on the "bandwagon" before any of the major CCTV players moved to supplying IP kit in 1997. We owned a company called VCS who we sold to Bosch in 2005. So we have been involved in the security industry for more than 10 years. We call ourselves a value added distributor, which basically means we work with installer and integrator partners to deliver solutions. Because we are independent we provide the best components (cameras, management etc.) for individual requirements and design, comission and support solutions. Reference sites include St Pancras International, Charles de gaulle Airport, Munich Airport, numerous town centres, schools etc. so we do have plenty of experience. ! Ok so now you are saying you ARE a rep, if not a rep a Distributor, same difference as you rep certain products, doesnt have to be just one brand. Many members here also have plenty of experience, and we could name names of places where we have done work which you would never have heard of either, but there would be no point. Yes, you are a distributor/dealer, like thousands of others we deal with all the time, this is not a term we are unaware of on this forum. Distributors/dealers is how many on this forum get their products, and you will notice some of them have paid for banner ads. Im not hating man, I just appreciate total honesty. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nadort 0 Posted July 28, 2009 Back to the question,...my opinion IP versus analoge is a question wich several answers. Who am I I work as a profesional by a govermental organisation in the netherlands as an register security expert (RSE) with a mix of both systems. We are talking then about a huge profesional system (around 2000+ camera's) with specified requirements where cost are not so important. We pay from 900,-- euro for the cheapest to 6000,-- for a special. The requirement and specs what we want to see counts. Some time you can do it with IP and some times you need an another one (low light intensifier, IR-laser, thermal heat seaking). IP camera versus Analoge camera With the normal IP camera's you stil can not do all the things you can with the other options and till the time you can we need to use analoge and other camera's Digital versus analoge cabeling All our camera's are connected to a seperate glassfibre network and digitized and the images stored on huge dvr's at a high resolution for a long period (months). We can afford to have a separate networks wich one of them we use only for cctv so we do not have any trouble with the computer people abouth bandwith use when you do not have it you must talk and get approval from the computer automation department. with IP you can look at camera's anywhere from anywhere in the world ( advise use a secure crypto protocol so you know sure your the only one who"s looking). Normal cabeling or RF transmission has his limitations but is somtimes also ussefull when it does the job. Digitised images versus analoge. The time of analoge tape dvr's is over so there no discussion about that. With digitised image"s streamed to your security management system you can search or trigger alarms using biometric or special software as advanced motion, direction, riot/violence, counting or face recognision detection so you can handel a large system and do not need 2000 operators to watch the screens. You also can merge the immages from several camera"s (IP or analoge with an thermal and or IR-laser camera) into one new projected image. With analoge images the more sufisticated searches are not possible. Only simple videomotion where the system mostly do not sees the differance between real motion and rain or snow. Presenting the images We displaying the image"s is on several Barco projector walls (HD-TV quality over HDMI) or on normal (spot)monitors (RG59). We do not use lcd or plasma because the image quality is to poor. that my opinion ...so shoot on it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocacola 0 Posted August 4, 2009 Back to the question,...my opinionIP versus analoge is a question wich several answers. Who am I I work as a profesional by a govermental organisation in the netherlands as an register security expert (RSE) with a mix of both systems. We are talking then about a huge profesional system (around 2000+ camera's) with specified requirements where cost are not so important. We pay from 900,-- euro for the cheapest to 6000,-- for a special. The requirement and specs what we want to see counts. Some time you can do it with IP and some times you need an another one (low light intensifier, IR-laser, thermal heat seaking). IP camera versus Analoge camera With the normal IP camera's you stil can not do all the things you can with the other options and till the time you can we need to use analoge and other camera's Digital versus analoge cabeling All our camera's are connected to a seperate glassfibre network and digitized and the images stored on huge dvr's at a high resolution for a long period (months). We can afford to have a separate networks wich one of them we use only for cctv so we do not have any trouble with the computer people abouth bandwith use when you do not have it you must talk and get approval from the computer automation department. with IP you can look at camera's anywhere from anywhere in the world ( advise use a secure crypto protocol so you know sure your the only one who"s looking). Normal cabeling or RF transmission has his limitations but is somtimes also ussefull when it does the job. Digitised images versus analoge. The time of analoge tape dvr's is over so there no discussion about that. With digitised image"s streamed to your security management system you can search or trigger alarms using biometric or special software as advanced motion, direction, riot/violence, counting or face recognision detection so you can handel a large system and do not need 2000 operators to watch the screens. You also can merge the immages from several camera"s (IP or analoge with an thermal and or IR-laser camera) into one new projected image. With analoge images the more sufisticated searches are not possible. Only simple videomotion where the system mostly do not sees the differance between real motion and rain or snow. Presenting the images We displaying the image"s is on several Barco projector walls (HD-TV quality over HDMI) or on normal (spot)monitors (RG59). We do not use lcd or plasma because the image quality is to poor. that my opinion ...so shoot on it @nadort, hey dacht dat ik de enige Nederlander hier was. Leuk kennis te maken. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
