How to split 2 cameras with video&power over 1 Cat5 &amp

[rupertotech 0]

I need to split off 2 cameras with video & power over 1 cat5, plus I have 1 RG6 wire which has already been ran both together. So what I really want to do is be able to setup a total of 2 regular analog cameras, and be able to use the one cat5 wire and 1 RG6 to accomplish this without having power or video loss.

 

I looked into the cyrex CBLNPT baluns but I dont think that will work. due to having to use 2 pairs for power and 1 pair for video, which only leaves me with 1 pair to power the 2nd camera, if that 1 pair would even supply the right amount to power the camera. Unless I was thinking to use 1 pair for video on the cat5, for the one camera, and use the RG6 for video on the 2nd, then just use the remaining 6 wires, using 3 for each camera for power.

 

Any suggestions is greatly appreciated. Thanks

[crirvine 0]

CAT 5 wire is not a good choice for power it is to small in GA. Have you looked into remote power in the attic where the CAT 5 is run or pull a 18-4 power both cameras and have 2 spare pairs of wire.

[rupertotech 0]

Even with a balun you dont think that the cat5 will be able to power both cameras?

 

If not then I guess what your suggesting is run another 18-4, in order to power both cameras, then use the 1 cat5e for Video for one camera using the balun, then use the other RG6 wire I have there for video to the second camera? My power will then come from the new 18-4 wire. Im not to sure what your suggesting, I would of thought that cat5e can run power too as long as your using 2 pair at least. Thanks

[crirvine 0]

CAT 5 wire 24 or 26 gauge wire is not suitable for powering analog cctv cameras. This where proper training pays off you have voltage drop in wire the more the voltage drop the higher the current draw of the camera the more the camera draws the more heat is generated thus doing damage to the cameras. Look at this site you will need to know the current draw of the camera the size wire cate 5 being 24 or 26 and the camera voltage it will tell you the max distance you can run example is 12 volts dc 24 gauge wire 500 milliamps is 47 feet total length each camera pulls about 500 mil so 1000 mil or 1 amp is 20 feet.

 

 

http://www.video-insight.com/Support/Tools/Wire-Length-Calculator.aspx

[Soundy 1]

Theory aside, it SHOULD actually work to power both cameras off the Cat5, especially if they're 24VAC cameras so the current requirement and voltage drop are lower. With 12VDC cameras, if you're not using a regulated power supply, it's probably actually putting out around 16.5-17VDC at the adapter, so line losses shouldn't cause a problem there either.

 

I once had to add a camera at a gas pump where the existing conduits to the pump canopies were all sealed... fortunately we'd used 22/4 station wire to power each of the existing cameras, so I took one pair from the nearest camera for the video (using baluns), and the other pair (22ga. mind you) split out to power both cameras. It's been running fine for about three years now, too.

 

The "rules" may say it won't work... but if you learn and understand what and WHY the rules are, you'll know where you can bend them as well

[rory 0]

depends on the camera.

if its a cheap BW or color camera that has low amps, then maybe able to push it, if its a professional Day Night IR I really doubt it will work, even if you double up. Just pull the correct cable the first time. If you have no problem going back to the job and replacing the camera for free, then do as you like. Personally I wouldnt waste my time unless I do it right.

 

Anyway, post the camera specs, cable distances, etc, and im sure someone can tell you if it will or may work.

[crirvine 0]

You can pull an 80 foot moble home trailer with a S10 pickup truck also but it is not recomended look at the link to the tool I posted and yes if you want to change to 24 volt ac if your camera will work with it or you can just keep raising the the voltage until it works and risk burning up the camera then by all means try it just remember you can run your 110 volt air conditioner on a 50 foot extension cord but you run a high risk of setting your house on fire. Just remember voltage drops current goes up generates heat over time could result in a fire then you have to go to court and justify why you did not follow standards in this sue happy world.

 

24 volts ac 22 gauge wire 500 mil 149 feet

12 volts dc 22 gauge wire 500 mil 74 feet

AC on your cate 5 can cause ac hum, ground loops and a world of other problems and double the wire might help the current but not the possible other problems.

[Soundy 1]

why you did not follow standards in this sue happy world.

 

Well, it would be nice to live in a perfect world, but very few of us actually have that luxury. When the client is insistent that you get a new camera into a detached pump canopy whose conduits have all been sealed with about a foot of chico at each end, you do what you can with what you have, unless you can convince the client to spend tens of thousands to dig up the parking lot and put in new conduit.

 

AC on your cate 5 can cause ac hum, ground loops and a world of other problems and double the wire might help the current but not the possible other problems.

 

Well if that's the case, then what's the point of baluns in the first place?

 

Fact is, the whole "balanced line" design INHERENTLY eliminates induced line noise, including that caused by AC on adjacent pairs. I've never once seen AC interference caused by running 24VAC over the same Cat5 - or station wire, or intercom wire, for that matter - as video-via-baluns. I've had far more trouble with ground loops using 12VDC.

[crirvine 0]

To back haul 4 cameras on 1 wire with remote located power or power run on a larger wire like running 2 wires not 5 wires or more.

Soundy thats why I went to school and have to have a license to work in this industry. I guess all the books teachers and class room teachings are wrong and you are not. I might not have proper grammer as you say but I have the education and industry standards in the help I offer. I have seen job sites that we have been called to that others had installed that had an ac hum on the video that was run on cat 5. The solution to this problem was to pull new 18-4 wire to run the power on it and if I have to half do the job I do not need the customers money. We had ruther do the job proper and let the work we do advertise for us. We do not want to be part of I guess I thought it would work.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Guest

[Soundy 1]

To back haul 4 cameras on 1 wire with remote located power or power run on a larger wire like running 2 wires not 5 wires or more.

 

Do you know what "chico" is? It's a thick liquid that's poured into pipes where it hardens into a solid plug to seal the pipes... in this case, to prevent gasoline fumes from venting back into the building. It's required by Canadian Electrical Code at both ends of the conduit used to feed out to the pump islands, and it's pretty much impossible to remove after it's in there, without cutting, chiseling or jack-hammering the pipe to bits.

 

Like I said, it would be nice if we all lived in a perfect world where "back hauling" is possible anytime someone wants to add cameras to an installation like this...

 

Soundy thats why I went to school and have to have a license to work in this industry. I guess all the books teachers and class room teachings are wrong and you are not.

 

I never said they're wrong. I said when you know the rules, and WHY they're the rules, you know where you can bend them, and how far. While there's no certification required for CCTV work here in BC, I do have a background in electronics and electrical theory, so I do know where the wire/current calculations come from. I also know that published specs are typically de-rated, sometimes by as much as 30%, to allow for a little "wiggle-room" and for real-world variances that we simply have no control over.

 

Just because "the rules" say that you can't run more than "x" amps on "y" gauge wire for more than "z" distance, doesn't mean the whole thing is going to instantly go up in smoke if you're pulling "x+.01" amps for "z+.01" meteres.

[rory 0]

Just because "the rules" say that you can't run more than "x" amps on "y" gauge wire for more than "z" distance, doesn't mean the whole thing is going to instantly go up in smoke if you're pulling "x+.01" amps for "z+.01" meteres.

 

no but what could happen is that if its an IR camera, at night time the camera could fail. I came to a couple installs before that the installers used either telco wire or cat5 to power their cameras, even doubled up and at short distances (less than 50 feet in some cases), and they were failing at night when the IR kicked in. Turns out it was because when the IR kicked in the camera then required 2amps, while in the day it was only using 1amp. However, thats when it was being powered by 12VDC; when switched to 24VAC it would only use 1amp day and night. Oh yeah, they were Extreme CCTV cameras and yes I was surprised Thats why I mentioned it depends on the camera.

[crirvine 0]

That is why the customer has to have new conduit run to carry the new wire not installers fault that the job has to done by code and done proper and I have run new conduit to the many gas station upgrades we have done. The cost just has to passed on to the end user.

[Soundy 1]

Well, must be nice to be able to just do all that work and then bill the client for it, but here in the real world, you generally have to get the client's approval BEFORE embarking on spending tens of thousands of dollars and ripping up the parking lots and driveways of an operating gas station. If they don't want to spend that money, you have to come up with something else.

[ak357 0]

 

no but what could happen is that if its an IR camera, at night time the camera could fail. I came to a couple installs before that the installers used either telco wire or cat5 to power their cameras, even doubled up and at short distances (less than 50 feet in some cases), and they were failing at night when the IR kicked in. Turns out it was because when the IR kicked in the camera then required 2amps, while in the day it was only using 1amp. However, thats when it was being powered by 12VDC; when switched to 24VAC it would only use 1amp day and night. Oh yeah, they were Extreme CCTV cameras and yes I was surprised Thats why I mentioned it depends on the camera.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm,

I need to understand how camera failing because of IR consuming more current

u mean camera had problem putting out good levels (voltage drop)

then I don't have question

or camera become defective ?

and why depends on camera

camera will consume only whatever its design for

power supply is a ?

do u have enough or not

Edited July 14, 2009 by Guest

[crirvine 0]

Like rory said cameras with IR in the daytime draw say 1 amp current at night when the IR comes on it draws 2 amps of current. The size of the wire the length of wire and the voltage all come into play whether they camera will work or not also if the voltage drops to much and the current rises to much it will kill the camera. 100 foot of conduit cost $35.00 and say 100 foot of 18-4 cost $5.00 that is still cheaper than burning up 1 camera plus my time to go back to the site fix it and not bill the customer.

It is basic electronics if the camera draws 2 amps and has a 3 amp power supply changing to a 5 amp power supply will help the problem. You have to use the proper gauge wire for the voltage and current and length or you will have problems. You will get away with less sometime but it will catch up with you in the long run.

Like I said before its done right or we do not do the job. I have a very good boss its his way or we do not do it and its been that way for over 30 years. It is the little things to him every wire in the attic or under the house is stapled every other rafter / joist.

[rory 0]

Hmmm,

I need to understand how camera failing because of IR consuming more current

u mean camera had problem putting out good levels (voltage drop)

then I don't have question

or camera become defective ?

and why depends on camera

camera will consume only whatever its design for

power supply is a ?

do u have enough or not

 

when the IR kicked in, the camera used more amps than the cable could handle. it is a dual voltage camera, with 24VAC for some reason it only drew 1amp, with 12VDC it used 2amps only when the IR came on. It is 150+ foot of Infrared, and 2 cameras in one (EX82 and EX80). Power was individually fused distributed 12VDC with approx 3amps per output. We simply ran 18g lamp cord wire to each camera and that solved the problem, doubled up Cat5 did not work.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Guest

[Soundy 1]

 

no but what could happen is that if its an IR camera, at night time the camera could fail. I came to a couple installs before that the installers used either telco wire or cat5 to power their cameras, even doubled up and at short distances (less than 50 feet in some cases), and they were failing at night when the IR kicked in. Turns out it was because when the IR kicked in the camera then required 2amps, while in the day it was only using 1amp. However, thats when it was being powered by 12VDC; when switched to 24VAC it would only use 1amp day and night. Oh yeah, they were Extreme CCTV cameras and yes I was surprised Thats why I mentioned it depends on the camera.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm,

I need to understand how camera failing because of IR consuming more current

u mean camera had problem putting out good levels (voltage drop)

then I don't have question

or camera become defective ?

and why depends on camera

camera will consume only whatever its design for

power supply is a ?

do u have enough or not

 

No, the problem is, the smaller the wire, the more its resistance... when the IR kicks in and demands more current, Ohm's law dictates that the voltage will drop more. If it drops below the camera's operational minimum, then the camera will shut off. It's not a matter of the current the power supply is capable of delivering.

 

Personally, I just avoid IR cameras... I'd rather use something that actually has good low-light response instead of trying to get around poor performance with a cheap hack like IR LEDs.

[rory 0]

Personally, I just avoid IR cameras... I'd rather use something that actually has good low-light response instead of trying to get around poor performance with a cheap hack like IR LEDs.

 

i prefer to avoid them also, these couple cases mentioned though were pitch dark applications, mostly, or at the least where an exview BW camera would not see anything at all - BW exview being one of the lowest light cameras still today, not to mention they wanted color in the day, either way not my clients. These were hardly cheap hacks at approx $2000 retail per camera, and they work 100% in pitch dark. Sometimes you have no choice, kind of like that gas station situation If its pitch dark, you need some kind of light or the camera is useless.

[ak357 0]

Like rory said cameras with IR in the daytime draw say 1 amp current at night when the IR comes on it draws 2 amps of current. The size of the wire the length of wire and the voltage all come into play whether they camera will work or not also if the voltage drops to much and the current rises to much it will kill the camera. 100 foot of conduit cost $35.00 and say 100 foot of 18-4 cost $5.00 that is still cheaper than burning up 1 camera plus my time to go back to the site fix it and not bill the customer.

It is basic electronics if the camera draws 2 amps and has a 3 amp power supply changing to a 5 amp power supply will help the problem.

 

Why would rising current because of IR will kill camera

camera will take as much as its design for

sure total consumption go up (camera plus IR)

but why kill camera ?

[crirvine 0]

This is the last reply on this.

Lets say the camera is designed to work on 24 volts ac and you use 22-2 wire for power and you run the 22-2 500 foot the camera draws 2 amps under normal conditions but when you try to run the camera at 500 foot on the 22-2 the voltage at the camera will drop by a large amount this is not the true figures just an example at 500 foot the voltage say is now 18 volts and the current is 2.5 amps now if your camera still works it is getting hotter because of ohms law now that the camera is hotter it will not live as long.

Ohms law proves as voltage drops current goes up and when current goes up so does heat. It is true that if a camera draws 2 amps that is all it will draw at the stated voltage but you drop the voltage and the camera will draw more amps. Go buy you a nice variable power supply and nice new camera take your volt ohm meter set the power to 12 volts dc and check the current draw and then drop the voltage to 10 dc and check your current it will be higher now you have just tested the camera like it was run on wire to small and to long.

 

http://www.pelco.com/support/videosecbasics/voltdropchart.pdf

[rupertotech 0]

Your right, I think the best option is to just use the exisitng RG6 and 1 Cat5e and just use it for 1 camera so there will be no problems with it. I didnt run these exisiting wires so I dont know what there intentions were when running both together. (they had 2 cameras in mind)

[ak357 0]

This is the last reply on this.

Lets say the camera is designed to work on 24 volts ac and you use 22-2 wire for power and you run the 22-2 500 foot the camera draws 2 amps under normal conditions but when you try to run the camera at 500 foot on the 22-2 the voltage at the camera will drop by a large amount this is not the true figures just an example at 500 foot the voltage say is now 18 volts and the current is 2.5 amps now if your camera still works it is getting hotter because of ohms law now that the camera is hotter it will not live as long.

Ohms law proves as voltage drops current goes up and when current goes up so does heat. It is true that if a camera draws 2 amps that is all it will draw at the stated voltage but you drop the voltage and the camera will draw more amps.

 

http://www.pelco.com/support/videosecbasics/voltdropchart.pdf

 

Voltage drops current go up

Are u serios ?

U probaly meant to say camera will consume more current

on 12 V then 24 V