upgrade geovision or go w/ standalone dvr?

[jtreibick 0]

I am a home automation installer by trade, but have decent experience with CCTV. I recently inherited some camera work for a small grocery store from a now out of business CCTV company. The store is expanding from 2000 sq ft to 4000 sq ft, but also including a new beer and wine section, parking lot, and after hours bottle return.

 

Currently my client has a 4 year old Windows PC running a 4 channel geovision GV-600 which I want to scrap for a 16ch embedded DVR over an upgrade card. When my client had the PC-DVR installed in '05 he was informed it was expandable to 16 channels and wants to upgrade as such. My concerns over upgrading the pc is that it is old w/o warranty and at an age where some kind failure is likely. I REALLY don't want to deal with troubleshooting an aging DVR-PC. I will tell him this, but what I am hearing with his focus on upgrading is that he is interested in an affordable option.

 

I figure his cost to upgrade to a 16 channel geovision card of comparable framerate or higher begins at as little as ~$600 installed. I think he will see any additional money over this as an opportunity cost for reliability, piece-of-mind, and insurance against spending more money on repair.

 

The needs of a potential DVR are good network streaming capability with windows software and browser views, cell phone option; perhaps possibility of multiple remote logins at once. needs to be able to view certain cams from the register preferably via vga monitor wired back to the DVR.

 

I would like to offer him some embedded DVR alternatives to him (given his needs) that will justify abandoning the "$600 upgrade path." Any suggestions? He is prepared to budget to have me install at least six additional cameras for the expansion.[/b]

[jtreibick 0]

Here's a more specific question that may help me out:

 

Any guesses on the ballpark retail price of a custom built 4 channel geovision system in july of 2005? System = GV-300, P4 3.0ghz, 512 RAM, 250gb.

 

I'm looking through the remaining paperwork for this thing and the cost for "Loaner DVR system" in the event of failure and repair was $500

 

I am thinking this thing cost between $1,500-$2,000 in its day.

[rory 0]

Not sure but that system might have issues push a current geo card and software as is .. well its the software thats going to work it. The CPU is okay, but the ram needs to be upgraded considerably. As its 4 years old, you could try just doing that or buying all new hardware one time. I guess a newer Dual Core CPU and 2GB of ram should work, and cost is pretty low these days, but then you are still working with an older mobo. Maybe keep the case, change the guts. PC parts are much cheaper now but Geo cards have stayed about the same.

 

I dont expect you will get any 16 channel embedded DVR worth talking about for the same cost of just the 16 channel Geo card though, least not with the kind of features of the Geo and other PC cards. And if you go geo dont waste money on the 240 or 480 models, just give him an option of the GV800 or the GV1120 (IMO). The 800 could run on a slower older system, than say the 1120, but the 1120 gives you real time live view. The 240+ cards need faster quad cores etc to really benefit from their higher recording speeds, cost will go up.

 

Maybe just give him an 8 channel option also, using the GV650? Slap in an extra 1GB memory and add the 650 card, see if you can get an older 650 that can use 8.12 .. 8.2, 8.3 etc are resource hogs (like windows Geo just keeps getting slower!).

 

anyway .. my 5 cents ...

[bob321 0]

Standalone!

 

Unless you want to reboot occasionally for windows security updates, have to rely on windows not crashing and have to have the DVR in plain view of anyone who needs access to it.

[rory 0]

Standalone!

 

Unless you want to reboot occasionally for windows security updates, have to rely on windows not crashing and have to have the DVR in plain view of anyone who needs access to it.

 

Sounds like you havent used a properly setup Windows computer yet.

Windows Security updates dont exist in my world, only time Windows XP ever crashes on me is when I make it crash, and the PC DVR goes the same place a standalone goes.

[bob321 0]

Standalone!

 

Unless you want to reboot occasionally for windows security updates, have to rely on windows not crashing and have to have the DVR in plain view of anyone who needs access to it.

 

Sounds like you havent used a properly setup Windows computer yet.

Windows Security updates dont exist in my world, only time Windows XP ever crashes on me is when I make it crash, and the PC DVR goes the same place a standalone goes.

 

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/22/?task=advisories < yeah, no thanks

 

On that page you will find no less than 30 different unpatched ways to either crash, gain access, or block access to any windows xp machine. Not only are Microsoft not patching these gaping holes, they are also dropping support for service pack 2 summer 2010 -- good luck

 

Also it seems every time I boot into my windows in vmware, it asks to reboot to install yet another security patch - are you simply ignoring these?

 

As for DVR location, I would say it's unrecommended to put a windows DVR behind the ceiling or mounted inside a wall without easy physical access - unlike a quality standalone DVR that can operate for years without any maintenance, you will need physical access to a Windows DVR.

[rory 0]

Standalone!

 

Unless you want to reboot occasionally for windows security updates, have to rely on windows not crashing and have to have the DVR in plain view of anyone who needs access to it.

 

Sounds like you havent used a properly setup Windows computer yet.

Windows Security updates dont exist in my world, only time Windows XP ever crashes on me is when I make it crash, and the PC DVR goes the same place a standalone goes.

 

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/22/?task=advisories < yeah, no thanks

 

On that page you will find no less than 30 different unpatched ways to either crash, gain access, or block access to any windows xp machine. Not only are Microsoft not patching these gaping holes, they are also dropping support for service pack 2 summer 2010 -- good luck

 

Also it seems every time I boot into my windows in vmware, it asks to reboot to install yet another security patch - are you simply ignoring these?

 

As for DVR location, I would say it's unrecommended to put a windows DVR behind the ceiling or mounted inside a wall without easy physical access - unlike a quality standalone DVR that can operate for years without any maintenance, you will need physical access to a Windows DVR.

 

I wont go into details on this thread, but a DVR is just not install windows and walk away, it has to be setup properly, secured, tweaked. Default windows will be a problem, default ANY OS will be a problem - please note, ANY computer can be hacked or compromised, windows or not.

 

BTW that list shows mostly additional software that is not installed by default, be it a service or other, or that is disabled by default even, and in most cases much of which is disabled by the user post installed anyway, or customized using Nlite so that it is not ever installed on the system to begin with. The software or service does not exist or is disabled so there is no threat. Additionally, that list also shows exploits/problems from older versions of Windows such as Windows ME.

 

Yes i ignore all security patches after SP2 on systems I install (most of the SP3 updates are just crap anyway), they arent required, they are for people that dont know how to setup Windows properly.

 

Support from Microsoft is not needed. As long as the hardware manufacturers continue to create drivers for XP, that is how long it will survive. Last i heard it was 2014 though, but really it makes no difference. Right now it still blows away Microsoft's latest horrid concoctions, Vista and Windows 7.

 

Ive used Standalones for years myself, the really expensive ones too , and though they can generally withstand a little more abuse, they can still die. Ive seen both in very heavily abused locations, just this week past actually, 3 inches of dust each +-, both the stand alone and the PC were still going strong (amazingly, but obviously needed cleaning). Its all still just hardware, both get hot, both are still electronics and can go bad. As for access to the hardware, you need as much access to the standalone as you need to the PC, so I dont get your point.

 

Bottom line is this, if a PC DVR still seems like PC once installed, then it was not built and installed right. Unfortunately most that install PC DVRs dont know what they are doing in that regard, they just install Windows and walk away. Then again, most using Standalones dont have much of a clue either, hence why they are using a Standalone.

[bob321 0]

I wont go into details on this thread, but a DVR is just not install windows and walk away, it has to be setup properly, secured, tweaked. Default windows will be a problem, default ANY OS will be a problem - please note, ANY computer can be hacked or compromised, windows or not.

 

Yes i ignore all security patches after SP2 on systems I install (most of the SP3 updates are just crap anyway), they arent required, they are for people that dont know how to setup Windows properly.

 

Support from Microsoft is not needed. As long as the hardware manufacturers continue to create drivers for XP, that is how long it will survive. Last i heard it was 2014 though, but really it makes no difference. Right now it still blows away Microsoft's latest horrid concoctions, Vista and Windows 7.

 

That's fair enough, but one thing is misconfiguring the OS, another is there being 30 known huge gaping holes where anyone who cares enough can kill your DVR.

 

Short of blocking all access over Internet, there isn't that much you can do.

 

EDIT: OK, looking through them again, microsoft did patch the ones that were really scary and I'd say you can block all of these. But you still need to be on your toes and really know what you're doing - which lets face it most admins don't

 

Want to give me an external IP to a mission critical DVR and see if I can crash it?

 

Ive used Standalones for years myself, the really expensive ones too , and though they can generally withstand a little more abuse, they can still die. Ive seen both in very heavily abused locations, just this week past actually, 3 inches of dust each +-, both the stand alone and the PC were still going strong (amazingly, but obviously needed cleaning). Its all still just hardware, both get hot, both are still electronics and can go bad. As for access to the hardware, you need as much access to the standalone as you need to the PC, so I dont get your point.

 

For one they are normally smaller and I donno, I tried one of those ebay cards and had a few crashes and access over network wasn't great, I pretty much ended up using the DVR itself to access CCTV - so hiding it somewhere wasn't an option. Maybe I should try the Geovision stuff - that looks great.

 

Bottom line is this, if a PC DVR still seems like PC once installed, then it was not built and installed right. Unfortunately most that install PC DVRs dont know what they are doing in that regard, they just install Windows and walk away. Then again, most using Standalones dont have much of a clue either, hence why they are using a Standalone.

 

If you know what you're doing you can keep pretty much any DVR going - but in a CCTV environment, to me I want something that I can't misconfigure. Something that will record regardless of my, or my user's incompetence and I find standalone DVRs are more suited for this.

 

Not all standalone DVRs, but many pretty much guarantee that you won't miss that recording no matter what your users do.

 

I haven't used Windows based DVRs for very long so I might be totally wrong about this

[rory 0]

That's fair enough, but one thing is misconfiguring the OS, another is there being 30 known huge gaping holes where anyone who cares enough can kill your DVR.

as mentioned, most of those holes dont exist, only if software is installed or enabled on the windows PC, which in most cases it is not, and definately is not in a DVR setup. Example: if you were to install certain server software on your mac, and plug it into the internet, one with the client software could also gain access to your Mac and then once access is gained, they can do anything they like.

 

Short of blocking all access over Internet, there isn't that much you can do.

sure there is, you block all internet access (as well as all browser features), except the port required by the DVR software. Only software using that port is the DVR software so unless you physically get on that DVR and replace the DVR software with your own, there is nothing that can be done.

 

 

 

For one they are normally smaller and I donno, I tried one of those ebay cards and had a few crashes and access over network wasn't great, I pretty much ended up using the DVR itself to access CCTV - so hiding it somewhere wasn't an option. Maybe I should try the Geovision stuff - that looks great.

 

they are not all small, some are small, some are huge, ive used many different types. In fact some of the best new standalones are bigger and heavier than the average PC. Ebay cards dont compare to Geovision, or most others. Its not even so much the card, its the software, and the drivers. In fact i would never recommend buying a card from Ebay, in many cases they are pirate cards and they WILL crash your computer due to hacked software.

 

 

If you know what you're doing you can keep pretty much any DVR going - but in a CCTV environment, to me I want something that I can't misconfigure. Something that will record regardless of my, or my user's incompetence and I find standalone DVRs are more suited for this.

A PC DVR should be not different from a stand alone in that regard once setup properly. A user's incompetence can never do any damage to any of the systems i setup (short of a physical issue like taking the DVR and throwing it out the window!).

 

 

Not all standalone DVRs, but many pretty much guarantee that you won't miss that recording no matter what your users do.

 

I haven't used Windows based DVRs for very long so I might be totally wrong about this

 

I think you just used the wrong ones. Been there done that. I didnt even touch a PC DVR until Windows XP SP2 came out, and still only when the software and hardware started to get better.

[bob321 0]

as mentioned, most of those holes dont exist, only if software is installed or enabled on the windows PC, which in most cases it is not, and definately is not in a DVR setup. Example: if you were to install certain server software on your mac, and plug it into the internet, one with the client software could also gain access to your Mac and then once access is gained, they can do anything they like.

 

You're right, I looked through them again and Microsoft patched the scary stuff. So as long as you know what you're doing, you can run a secure Windows DVR.

 

I think you just used the wrong ones. Been there done that. I didnt even touch a PC DVR until Windows XP SP2 came out, and still only when the software and hardware started to get better.

 

I did most probably use the wrong software. I'll check out Geovision, Avermedia and others

 

As you probably can tell I'm not a huge fan of Windows though. Stopped using it around windows xp beta back in 2001.