System Review + Color Tweaking or just poor camera?

[vtphilk 0]

I just did a new setup with a few new cameras I have not tried before. I'm fairly new to the CCTV industry so be gentle .

 

Anyhow, I did a customer install at a home and used two different cameras (Because one of the cameras seems to have fried quickly, no comment ).

 

But anyhow, Here is the setup:

 

ICRealtime DVR MAX4 (H.264e) 4 channel dvr.

One USAG AVC2-2-550DN (With IR)

One ICRealtime Vandal Dome EL430PIXIM (NO IR)

 

I have two other cameras for the install but need to finish cabling to the two locations.

 

I got the DVR up and running and I like the ICRealtime DVR with the execption of a few things:

 

1) THe remote sucks...need to call them on that tomm. No instructions and I was trying to link it into the RF remote system we have installed so they could switch cameras remoted. It worked once or twice however now the remote one control the dvr at all .

 

2) No snapshot feature. THis sucks since it is IP capable why not have a snapshot feature so that automation sources etc.. (HAI and IPhone) could connect to it to get a updated snapshot every 3 seconds.

 

Most e-cheapo DVRs have this but I was surprised to not find that on this fairly pricy DVR.

 

 

 

 

Anyhow, my point on this post was to get some feedback on the picture quality of these cameras. Suprisingly the USAG camera has a VERY good nice picture with the IRs however the ICRealtime 430 PIXIM is very disappointing. I was expecting a bit more for double the cost of the usag. THere is a decent amount of moonlight in the snapshots taken and this is what I get.

 

see attached pictures. I'm concerned about the redness in the pool camera picture from the ICRealtime camera.

 

I like the features on the ICRealtime with the installer camera port for pointing, onscreen display control of camera features etc...but those are nice but reality is the camera needs to perform more than it's features

[vtphilk 0]

Welp..I could not get post to let me upload attachments...so here they are on my website:

 

http://www.speedyconnex.com/cctvpics/

[vtphilk 0]

PS>.the ICRealtime pic was at dusk when still a good amount of light. once I hit moonlight only it was total black. I will try and get another snapshot tonight as I am going to login to the dvr remotely and grab a snapshot.

[rory 0]

I can tell straight away that the camera on the left is a better camera. It looks like a True Day Night with IR Cut Filter, hence the true colors, and true BW mode. The image on the right seems like a basic Color IR camera with no IR Cut filter, hence the washed out colors. Both images are crappy quality but then thats probably the compression either on the DVR side or from uploading it online.

[vtphilk 0]

DVR is setup for H.264 D1 (CIF4) 7 FPS, VBR 768bps.

 

Does that sound like what it should look like or you think the DVR is killing the image. I connected the camera on the left directly to the monitor and it looked very similar.

 

I think the bigger problem is I had to zoom the camera all the way out to be able to be wide enough to cover the entire pool. I mean, it's a pretty good camera just think it's zoomed out a bit too much maybe.

 

My only complaint is even during daylight I could not make out faces too well which kinda has my customer complaining as he was hoping to be able to get a good look of the white shed on the right camera in case he gets someone breaking in there since there is some 'valuable' stuff in there.

 

Anyhow..just wanted to get some expert reviews of the pics. THanks so much for any further input anyhow might have.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Guest

[ak357 0]

DVR is setup for H.264 7 FPS, VBR 768bps.

 

 

 

I think the bigger problem is I had to zoom the camera all the way out to be able to be wide enough to cover the entire pool. I mean, it's a pretty good camera just think it's zoomed out a bit too much maybe.

 

My only complaint is even during daylight I could not make out faces too well which kinda has my customer complaining as he was hoping to be able to get a good look of the white shed on the right camera in case he gets someone breaking in there since there is some 'valuable' stuff in there.

 

I hate to tell but on given sq foot coverage u expect

miracle

in mean time u should read posts in this forum about resolution, pixels

density

and so on

or do search "Rory and resolution ,D1,Pixels "

Right Rory ?

 

Mega pix Cam is your friend

Edited July 21, 2009 by Guest

[vtphilk 0]

DVR is setup for H.264 7 FPS, VBR 768bps.

 

 

 

I think the bigger problem is I had to zoom the camera all the way out to be able to be wide enough to cover the entire pool. I mean, it's a pretty good camera just think it's zoomed out a bit too much maybe.

 

My only complaint is even during daylight I could not make out faces too well which kinda has my customer complaining as he was hoping to be able to get a good look of the white shed on the right camera in case he gets someone breaking in there since there is some 'valuable' stuff in there.

 

I hate to tell but on given sq foot coverage u expect

miracle

in mean time u should read posts in this forum about resolution, pixels

density

and so on

or do search "Rory and resolution ,D1,Pixels "

Right Rory ?

 

Mega pix Cam your is friend

 

Well..DVR was D1. I was thinking about megapixel IP camera since I have IP drop and analog drops for wire at the locations of the cameras. I went with the analog cameras just cause most people said DVRs for analog a little better.

 

Also wanted to keep per camera cost under $500/each (To customer). Anyhow, if this is the best I can do for the cost then I guess that is fine just trying to get my expectations right. Thanks again!

[usagdavid1 0]

I am the manufacturer of the camera on the right and I respectfully disagree with the assertion that the camera on the left is a “better cameraâ€

[rory 0]

I am the manufacturer of the camera on the right and I respectfully disagree with the assertion that the camera on the left is a “better cameraâ€

[usagdavid1 0]

Hi Rory,

I apologize for not addressing the Mechanical IR Cut Filter. The benefits of these filters come at the expense of much higher costs and reduced reliability. If you have two cameras of equal construction quality and one has moving parts, the one without moving parts will have a longer life span. We have sold many cameras to replace non functioning True Day/Night cameras in the field with stuck mechanical filters. I stand by my prior comments on low light performance. The camera on the right exhibits greater sensitivity than the camera on the left.

 

As for your second comment, please feel free to visit our plant anytime at 301 Goolsby Blvd, Deerfield Beach Florida. I’ll buy you a beer.

[vtphilk 0]

Thanks all. I have tweaked the color settings on the pool camera and the customer is slightly happier now.

 

Honestly, they are liking the USAG camera better but I think mainly because they see it with the color at night and IR. They are bummed that they are not able to zoom in to make out faces at the white shed on the usag but I tried to set there expectations better without spending $1000 per camera for megapixel stuff.

 

I do have to say I'm fairly disappointed with the ICRealtime DVR. I got the 4 channel for this job and a 8 channel for another and considering trying to send at least the 8 channel back.

 

The feature set is very bad. Yes it supports H.264. Yes it claims to not do software compression (Which mind you it is very responsive unit). But in my opinion it does not matter how fast things work when features like snapshot and send email notifications are totally not there.

 

For a $1000+ dvr it's very lacking.. But I'm a newbie to the cctv so what do I know

 

Thanks again for the advice/input.

[vtphilk 0]

PS.

 

Grabbed some snapshots from the cameras last night. Under moonlight the Pool camera is not visible at all. However, if the outdoor flood lights are turned on (Which are not directly on the areas) I get pretty good pictures:

 

http://www.speedyconnex.com/cctvpics/cam-1-wfloods.bmp

 

http://www.speedyconnex.com/cctvpics/cam-2-wfloods.bmp

 

http://www.speedyconnex.com/cctvpics/cam1-2-sidebyside.bmp

 

So I suggested the client get a motion detector on the flood lights and he agreed. (So another revenue source ) So I'll be looking for one of those X10 flood light/motion detectors lights which allows you to put the motion trigger in after install.

 

I figure...IR or not...best thing I can do for a nighttime picture is give it legit real light

 

I'm also surprised of the hot spot on the WDR B/W camera. I would have thought the WDR is suppose to block stuff like this out.

[rory 0]

PS.

 

Grabbed some snapshots from the cameras last night. Under moonlight the Pool camera is not visible at all. However, if the outdoor flood lights are turned on (Which are not directly on the areas) I get pretty good pictures:

 

http://www.speedyconnex.com/cctvpics/cam-1-wfloods.bmp

 

http://www.speedyconnex.com/cctvpics/cam-2-wfloods.bmp

 

http://www.speedyconnex.com/cctvpics/cam1-2-sidebyside.bmp

 

So I suggested the client get a motion detector on the flood lights and he agreed. (So another revenue source ) So I'll be looking for one of those X10 flood light/motion detectors lights which allows you to put the motion trigger in after install.

 

I figure...IR or not...best thing I can do for a nighttime picture is give it legit real light

 

I'm also surprised of the hot spot on the WDR B/W camera. I would have thought the WDR is suppose to block stuff like this out.

 

Once again, any CCTV pro with experience in night applications looking at those 2 images can tell the camera on the left is a MUCH better camera for a day night app, its much higher sensitivity in BW mode then the cheaper Color/IR camera on the right, and real colors in color mode. As for the spotlight, it would need adjusting to get rid of the spot, or turn the IR down some. I dont know either camera and have no specs, so Im only going by the images i have seen thus far. Only way to be 100% sure is to put the cameras side by side at the same location and FOV. Also, all day/night apps need to also be setup at night, in the dark.

 

Ignore the whole WDR thing though, your only concern with that location is that it is day night with IR, and also the WDR might not even be enabled by default on that camera, disable it if it is.

 

Granted if you are concerned with heavy light changes (non existent in your application) and the IR cut filter going crazy all night long (I had only one go bad in almost 10 years and even then I fixed it myself), then perhaps you need to look at a dual day night camera setup such as an Ex82. If you cant afford either then ofcourse a Color/IR camera would be the lower cost choice.

[vtphilk 0]

I think I might make one more trip back to the site to try and get the camera focus on the right one as it is a tad out of focus I think. Those stupid little thumb screws are a pain to focus also it did not have a monitor output on the front so it was tough getting it focused.

 

I also will try testing turning off WDR and see if it helps with night on the camera on the left spot effect. There is no IR but there is normal spot lights back there. One thing nice about the ICR camera (Left) is it is settings controllable thru the PTZ wire. Now if I only knew which settings to tweak ))

 

Thanks again.

[rory 0]

those are spotlights and not IR?

what type of camera is it, just a day night without IR? Not a bullet then? Box, Dome or PTZ?

 

Well now that you say its not IR then I am having second thoughts about it being a really good camera but again I dont know it or its specs .. either way move the spotlight up higher, either on the pool itself or up higher towards the bush in the distance near the top of the image. I still prefer it to switch to higher sensitive BW mode at night, cant stand DSS, and no color is better than thinking its blue when its really green. It still looks like a better all around image to me though, but not having IR makes it worth less (not worthless!), guess thats where the WDR made the cost go up LOL. You dont need a WDR camera at either of those locations by the way. No matter which OEM brand you get, one of them should have a True Day Night IR Bullet, without DSS (or with, just disable it) and with a switching IR Cutfilter, thats the one you want next time. And stay away from WDR unless you are trying to get plates at a gas station or faces at an entrance .. things like that, less they can afford Pano's WDR cameras.

[vtphilk 0]

Sorry..I should have been clearer. It is a dome, vandalproof with NO IR leds however does have mechanical IR cut filter:

 

http://www.icrealtime.com/solutions/cameras.asp?cameraid=EL430PIXIM

 

Actually, the original install was suppose to be two of the USAG cameras (Color one with IR LEDs at the FirePit on right). However, had some 'problems' with one of the cameras and ended up needing something to fill the gap quick because I had a customer in 'rich jerk mode'....

 

I had that WDR in the truck and sold him on it thinking well maybe the WDR will help with reflection of sunlight on the pool when it is open. He (Customer) also liked the idea of the dome as it 'looked' neat ...haha

 

Anyhow, it's a learning experience and thanks so much for the tips . One thing I can say is USAG has been very helpfull with tech support etc... and much more responsive then some 'other' companies I was/am dealing with.

[usagdavid1 0]

Thank you for your comment on our service. I will pass it along to the team. We take great pride in our service which is enhanced by the fact that we assemble many of our products here in the USA. This translates directly into more knowledgeable support and quicker turn-around.

 

WRT to the pictures, the camera on the left utilizes pixim technology, which has superior dynamic range to the camera on the right. However, this increased dynamic range comes at the cost of low light performance due to lower fill factor and higher dark current level. The fact that the camera on the left has a mechanical IR cut filter will not make up for the significant and fundamental sensitivity advantage the camera on the right has.

 

Our new Midnight camera is even more light sensitive than the camera on the right, you would be surprised how well it performs under very low light conditions. It is not IR sensitive.