How do you think of HDcctv? It can be a sustitute for IP?

[hdcctv 0]

HD-CCTV Alliance has annouced that its full range of products would be released soon from HD-CCTV manufacturer. They say it can be replacing IP cameras soon after, but I guess not many people still don't know what HD-CCTV is. Any idea?

[Soundy 1]

I've been hearing "soon" from proponents here for probably the last year... when is "soon"?

 

I don't see it really catching on beyond a niche market. As with any new technology, it's bound to be expensive initially - not just the cameras, but the need for new capture devices. It will take even more time for the price to be able to compete with current MP/IP technology, and that market isn't standing still. What I've seen/heard so far is still limited to HDTV spec, which is 1080p maximum - that equates to 2MP resolution at best (1920x1080).

 

The ability to use existing wiring is a good selling point for upgrading existing systems, but for new/retrofit installs, going "back" to point-to-point, home-run topology is a drawback IMO... hub/branch layouts are possible, of course, but that's even more cost that's sure to be expensive for the first while.

 

The biggest knock I hear on IP is the lack of support for full 30fps at higher resolution... by the time HD-CCTV/SDI costs drop enough to be competitive, I don't expect that will be an issue anymore. Plus, 30fps is really overrated for most situations - we're not making movies and TV shows, people.

[survtech 0]

Plus, 30fps is really overrated for most situations - we're not making movies and TV shows, people.

Not for casinos.

[Soundy 1]

Casinos aren't "most situations".

[FranciscoNET 0]

I would really love to record at 1080P HD resolutions. I would then be burning my evidences on Blue Ray Discs instead of DVD's I would just hate to even imagine what the costs going to be per HD cameras.

[Soundy 1]

I would really love to record at 1080P HD resolutions. I would then be burning my evidences on Blue Ray Discs instead of DVD's I would just hate to even imagine what the costs going to be per HD cameras.

 

$180.

 

BTW, 1080P is only 1920x1080 pixels... barely 2MP. The same as LOW-END megapixel cameras. Megapixel CCTV cameras are currently available in 3MP, 5MP, and even higher.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Guest

[ak357 0]

I would really love to record at 1080P HD resolutions. I would then be burning my evidences on Blue Ray Discs instead of DVD's I would just hate to even imagine what the costs going to be per HD cameras.

 

Actually it's not that bad

about 10-15 % more then reg IP megapix cam

I am talking about HD SDI security cameras

[survtech 0]

$180.

That's a consumer pocket camcorder. How can you equate that to the price of a cctv camera?

[Soundy 1]

The basic guts of the cameras wouldn't be difficult, as there are sensors and support components already on the market for 1080P HD cameras. What jacks the price is the addition of the SDI interface... and while the cost of the cameras may only be 10-15% more, you still have to get the signal into the recorder somehow. SDI itself is relatively niche-market and always has been, used mainly in the broadcast segment.

[Guest]

HD720 is starting to get pretty standard right now, but I am not sure why you say they will replace IP cameras, because the HD Cameras is IP megapixel cameras. Many cameras can do for instance 1600 * 1280 video, but then often as a price(lost frame rate) so when taking a step down to 1280 * 720 many can run it in full frame rate and with dual stream as well.

 

So I think that for a while we will have HD IP NVR systems, and hopefully many VGA IP cams will be taken out of the market.

 

JD

[Soundy 1]

Thing is, a lot of people get hung up on framerates and *think* they want/need 30fps for everything, when 15 or even 10fps is practically indistinguishable to most people in most circumstances, requiring a fraction of the bandwidth and storage. I think in most cases, I'd find a 5MP (2560x1920) resolution at 10fps (IQEye 700-series) more useful than 1920x1080 at 30fps...

[survtech 0]

JOINDVR,

 

You appear to misunderstand what the HDcctv Alliance is proposing. They are not talking about using IP as their delivery system.

 

Link to HDcctv Alliance

[Guest]

JOINDVR,

 

You appear to misunderstand what the HDcctv Alliance is proposing. They are not talking about using IP as their delivery system.

 

Link to HDcctv Alliance

 

 

Yeah you are right! Sorry!

 

 

JD

[survtech 0]

I think in most cases, I'd find a 5MP (2560x1920) resolution at 10fps (IQEye 700-series) more useful than 1920x1080 at 30fps...

Why?

 

Would a 5MP camera be able to see the shoplifter in the next aisle?

 

Or the customers playing at the third row of slot machines?

 

Or have a wider field-of-view?

 

Or see better in low light?

[Soundy 1]

I think in most cases, I'd find a 5MP (2560x1920) resolution at 10fps (IQEye 700-series) more useful than 1920x1080 at 30fps...

Why?

 

Would a 5MP camera be able to see the shoplifter in the next aisle?

 

No... can these HD cams see THROUGH bags of chips?

 

Or the customers playing at the third row of slot machines?

Same question - is x-ray vision a feature of HDcctv?

 

Or have a wider field-of-view?

Kinda depends on the lens, doesn't it?

 

Or see better in low light?

Kinda depends on the specific camera as well.

 

None of these questions are relevant to the comparison. Twice the resolution is still twice the resolution, isn't it?

[survtech 0]

The point is, I have an open mind towards HDcctv. Some of the posters here apparently do not!

[Guest]

The point is, I have an open mind towards HDcctv. Some of the posters here apparently do not!

 

I hope they succeds, because also IP needs to meet competition outside the IP market so that everything will be even better in the future!

 

 

And I have many RG59 cables that can then be upgraded!

 

JD

[Soundy 1]

I'm not closed to the concept, but having seen similar types of promising technologies arise and then vanish over the years, in all manner of different market segments, I'm not jumping on the HDcctv-as-savior-of-the-industry bandwagon.

 

Don't overlook the numerous issues involved in bringing a new technology like this to market - I still haven't heard anyone address the issue of all-new capture/input hardware that would be required on the recorder end to support these cameras, or the cost thereof, for example. I've seen others argue against megapixel in general because of the storage costs involved - where are they on HDcctv, which will have the same storage requirements, if not more as people go ga-ga for 30fps on everything?

 

As someone said long ago, being open-minded is fine... as long as your brain doesn't fall out.

[Soundy 1]

The point is, I have an open mind towards HDcctv. Some of the posters here apparently do not!

 

I hope they succeds, because also IP needs to meet competition outside the IP market so that everything will be even better in the future!

 

While that's a possible advantage to this, I suspect even the threat of it is already causing price drops for IP cctv... and that alone may help kill HDcctv before it ever comes to market. The rate IP prices are falling, HD won't be able to compete when OR IF it ever actually hits the shelves.

 

And I have many RG59 cables that can then be upgraded!

 

That's that HighWires are for - run a half-dozen megapixel cameras over a single RG-59 if you want.

[survtech 0]

That's that HighWires are for - run a half-dozen megapixel cameras over a single RG-59 if you want.

At a cost of approximately $200-$300 per cable assuming the existing transport medium is RG-xx 75 ohm coax. And that half-dozen cameras should be relatively low bit rate. Don't expect to run six MJPEG multi-megapixel cameras at even 15fps on a 100Mbps HIGHWIRE.

 

If you are using analog twisted-pair transmission, be prepared to pay nearly $600 for the Nitek VR124UTP product or resigned to rewiring your whole job for networking. In either case, be prepared to learn networking and, for critical applications, VLAN Programming.

[Soundy 1]

You're right, I don't want to deal with all that stuff... I'll just sit back and not deal with anything over D1 until HDcctv comes along... Real Soon Now...

 

[hdcctv 0]

I've been thinking about the merits that HD-CCTV has and IP camera doesn't.

 

1) Price

: Low end IP camera is, of course, reasonable. But general IP camera is not that cheap in relation with HD-CCTV even though IP has dominated the current market for megapixel camera for long time.

As for HD-CCTV, there's no need to install another new coaxial cable. Many users are already using coaxial cable if they have analog camera. Just replace the camera into HD-CCTV camera. And the price for HD-CCTV is now unreasonable because it is just its first step on the market. If production line is well run, the price will be down either.

 

 

2) Security & Management

: There might be a sort of danger for IP camera because intruders can easily have an access for the network. Hackers like to get in a network based system. Additionally, when the network is not working due to any reason, it is obvious that nobody can handle it until the network is recovered. But in HD-CCTV, it is ok whether it is connected to network or not. It works at any time if there's no breakout.

 

As for the management, it is not that easy to deal with the network system. When we think of many managers, jenitors, and IP camera users, they barely have a knowledge of network system. The easier the interface is, the happier the users like. Users need the knowledge about IP network camera while they don't need about HD-CCTV camera.

 

 

I can't say IP is definately bad and HD-CCTV is absolutly brilliant. The systems have its' own merit and dismerit. If users are satisfied with the features of HD-CCTV, it is enough.

[survtech 0]

You're right, I don't want to deal with all that stuff... I'll just sit back and not deal with anything over D1 until HDcctv comes along... Real Soon Now...

 

Or at least wait until IP manufacturers get their ducks in a row - fixing the issues with latency, low frame rates, poor low light performance, incompatability between manufacturers, lack of standards and network QOS problems.

[Soundy 1]

You're right, I don't want to deal with all that stuff... I'll just sit back and not deal with anything over D1 until HDcctv comes along... Real Soon Now...

 

Or at least wait until IP manufacturers get their ducks in a row - fixing the issues with latency,

 

Varies widely with the cameras and only REALLY an issue in a few niche uses.

 

low frame rates,

 

Overrated - very few CCTV uses *need* anything over 10fps.

 

poor low light performance,

 

Irrelevant - low-light performance is a function of the camera, not the transmission method.

 

incompatability between manufacturers,

 

RTSP? More and more IP cams are supporting it... maybe more DVR manufacturers should get onboard with that?

 

lack of standards

 

Uh, 802.3?

 

and network QOS problems.

 

Only if you build a ****ty network. Bad infrastructure design will hurt ANY cctv setup, analog OR digital.

 

Come on suvtech, surely you can come up with better red herrings than this?

[survtech 0]

You're right, I don't want to deal with all that stuff... I'll just sit back and not deal with anything over D1 until HDcctv comes along... Real Soon Now...

 

Or at least wait until IP manufacturers get their ducks in a row - fixing the issues with latency,

 

Varies widely with the cameras and only REALLY an issue in a few niche uses.

I don't consider PTZ's to be a "niche".

 

low frame rates,

 

Overrated - very few CCTV uses *need* anything over 10fps.

Perhaps not for your installs.

 

poor low light performance,

 

Irrelevant - low-light performance is a function of the camera, not the transmission method.

You were the one who said

I'll just sit back and not deal with anything over D1 until HDcctv comes along

 

incompatability between manufacturers,

 

RTSP? More and more IP cams are supporting it... maybe more DVR manufacturers should get onboard with that?

 

Maybe, but they aren't - incompatibility exists.

 

lack of standards

 

Uh, 802.3?

 

Doesn't describe camera standards.

 

and network QOS problems.

 

Only if you build a ****** network. Bad infrastructure design will hurt ANY cctv setup, analog OR digital.

 

In large, mission critical installs, good = darned expensive, darned complicated and darned difficult to manage!