Suggestions for $1,000 day/night outdoor IP camera?

[cglaeser 0]

Axis recently introduced the P3344-VE day/night outdoor IP66 camera. See http://www.axis.com/products/cam_p3344ve/index.htm. Buy.com has them for $1,060.

 

The BW night lux rating is 0.06 lux. They don't mention the shutter speed for this lux rating (Axis never does), but I'm sure it is the slowest shutter speed which is 1/6s. So, the lux rating at 1/60s is probably 0.6 lux.

 

I like the form factor, and I like Axis products. However, I really want the best low lux possible for a $1,000 megapixel IP camera, and Axis low light capabilities are probably not the best. Can you recommend another camera I should consider in this price range that would provide better low-light images?

 

Best,

Christopher

[thewireguys 3]

Arecont AV1355DN and if you need better for more money AV3130...... The AV3130 best low light megapixel camera.

[cglaeser 0]

Arecont AV1355DN and if you need better for more money AV3130...... The AV3130 best low light megapixel camera.

 

Thanks!

 

Do you have any low-light comparison images from Axis, Mobotix, Arecont? It's really hard to compare the lux spec data given that few of the manufacturers include the shutter speed with the lux rating. A 2 second shutter speed is useless for security applications, but that doesn't stop the manufacturers from using 2 seconds to show a good lux rating.

 

Best,

Christopher

[thewireguys 3]

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17201&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

[cglaeser 0]

The AV3130 best low light megapixel camera.

 

What is the minimum lux rating? Unless I'm overlooking it, the AV3130 specification does not mention the minimum lux rating for BW. Also, what is the minimum shutter speed?

 

These manufacturers make it virtually impossible to do an apples-apples low light comparison.

 

Best,

Christopher

[Sawbones 0]

Getting good images at night (particularly of motion) represents the real test for these cameras. Most of them can produce a decent image in the day time.

 

And the toughest thing is that there's no good way to evaluate it other than looking at the pictures.

 

This forum is absolutely invaluable in that regard.

[thewireguys 3]

The AV3130 best low light megapixel camera.

 

What is the minimum lux rating? Unless I'm overlooking it, the AV3130 specification does not mention the minimum lux rating for BW. Also, what is the minimum shutter speed?

 

These manufacturers make it virtually impossible to do an apples-apples low light comparison.

 

Best,

Christopher

 

Minimum Lux for B/W is 0 and here some info on shutter speed

 

Low Light Mode is a group of options to adjust camera’s operation under low light conditions:

 

a) High Speed enables the shortest exposure, selectable from a drop-down list “Short Exposureâ€

[cglaeser 0]

Minimum Lux for B/W is 0

 

The AV3130 can't really see it total darkness. What they mean by 0 lux is that it is sensitive to IR. It's a poor way to specify that a camera is IR capable. By that measure, my Axis 223M is also 0 lux.

 

The data sheet on the Arecont website does not specify the minimum lux rating for BW, but there are older data sheets on the web that specify 0.01 lux for BW. However, once again, there is no shutter speed associated with the 0.01 lux rating, so it really doesn't mean that much. There is a huge difference between 0.01 lux at 1/60s and 0.01 lux at 2s.

 

here some info on shutter speed

 

Shutter speeds and lux values by themselves are of little value. To be meaningful, they need to be specified in pairs. Mobotix has taken the lead on this, and specify their lux values with associated shutter speeds. Companies like Axis do not include shutter speed with their lux values, and companies like Arecont don't even list lux value in their latest AV3130 data sheet. 0 lux. Yeah right.

 

Thank you Mobotix!!!!

 

Best,

Christopher

[thewireguys 3]

Minimum Lux for B/W is 0

 

The AV3130 can't really see it total darkness. What they mean by 0 lux is that it is sensitive to IR. It's a poor way to specify that a camera is IR capable. By that measure, my Axis 223M is also 0 lux.

 

The data sheet on the Arecont website does not specify the minimum lux rating for BW, but there are older data sheets on the web that specify 0.01 lux for BW. However, once again, there is no shutter speed associated with the 0.01 lux rating, so it really doesn't mean that much. There is a huge difference between 0.01 lux at 1/60s and 0.01 lux at 2s.

 

here some info on shutter speed

 

Shutter speeds and lux values by themselves are of little value. To be meaningful, they need to be specified in pairs. Mobotix has taken the lead on this, and specify their lux values with associated shutter speeds. Companies like Axis do not include shutter speed with their lux values, and companies like Arecont don't even list lux value in their latest AV3130 data sheet. 0 lux. Yeah right.

 

Thank you Mobotix!!!!

 

Best,

Christopher

 

Well if there was more time in the day I could setup a demo . I have a M12 and 3130 and the I think the 3130 has a better night time image but the M12 has a better day time image. Plus you get better frame rates with the 3130.

 

If the lux level is below 1 or 2 we are adding IR or white light. Cameras need light for quality images with out motion blur. If you put the 3130 in and set it up correctly you will not be disappointed.

 

I like Axis cameras alot but besides the 214 and 233 there night images suck.

[cglaeser 0]

If the lux level is below 1 or 2 we are adding IR or white light.

 

I'm not sure I understand your comment. Who is we?

 

Cameras need light for quality images with out motion blur.

 

Yes, they need light, but some security cameras can see well below 1 lux.

 

If you put the 3130 in and set it up correctly you will not be disappointed.

 

Just wish it had the functionality of an Axis (e.g. ftp images directly to a NAS based on motion events) and I would buy a few. I would prefer not to run NVR software on a PC if I can avoid it. I really like the distributed computing approach of the Axis and Mobotix. My Axis cameras are attached to the net and store directly to the NAS based on motion events without any additional software or computer.

 

I like Axis cameras alot but besides the 214 and 233 there night images suck.

 

Yes, the high end Axis PTZ cameras have good low light capability (though not megapixel) and the new Axis P3344 looks promising. The spec says 0.05 lux, but does not specify the shutter speed. Given that the slowest shutter speed is 1/6s and assuming that's the shutter speed they used to measure the 0.05 lux, that would translate to 0.5 lux at 1/60s. Probably not as good as the AV3130, but considerably better than the Axis 223M, which is approximately 25 lux at 1/60s.

 

Do you have any plans to test a P3344?

 

Best,

Christopher

[thewireguys 3]

If the lux level is below 1 or 2 we are adding IR or white light.

 

I'm not sure I understand your comment. Who is we?

 

Cameras need light for quality images with out motion blur.

 

Yes, they need light, but some security cameras can see well below 1 lux.

 

If you put the 3130 in and set it up correctly you will not be disappointed.

 

Just wish it had the functionality of an Axis (e.g. ftp images directly to a NAS based on motion events) and I would buy a few. I would prefer not to run NVR software on a PC if I can avoid it. I really like the distributed computing approach of the Axis and Mobotix. My Axis cameras are attached to the net and store directly to the NAS based on motion events without any additional software or computer.

 

I like Axis cameras alot but besides the 214 and 233 there night images suck.

 

Yes, the high end Axis PTZ cameras have good low light capability (though not megapixel) and the new Axis P3344 looks promising. The spec says 0.05 lux, but does not specify the shutter speed. Given that the slowest shutter speed is 1/6s and assuming that's the shutter speed they used to measure the 0.05 lux, that would translate to 0.5 lux at 1/60s. Probably not as good as the AV3130, but considerably better than the Axis 223M, which is approximately 25 lux at 1/60s.

 

Do you have any plans to test a P3344?

 

Best,

Christopher

 

If you send me one

 

How do you view then images the you send to the NAS?

[cglaeser 0]

How do you view then images the you send to the NAS?

 

The images are jpg. I view them on my PC and iPhone, but any jpg viewer will work.

 

I like the functionality and simplicity of the Axis. The motion detection events can send images to the NAS (or remote site if I wanted) via ftp. Although the Axis software is free for one camera, I don't even run it on my PC. Each Axis camera does everything I need. It even creates new folders based on date (or time, etc), so all my motion-detected images are organized by date.

 

The amount of storage required for motion events is minimal compared to the size of my NAS. Plus, the hit on the network is also minimal, since all the decision making is done at each camera. If I want to review images in real time, I just open a browser using the IP address of a particular camera. In addition to FTP, the Axis cameras also support HTTP.

 

Every couple of months or so, there is a theft in the neighborhood. I review the images of cars, etc, from the corresponding folder on the NAS and make copies for the police report.

 

Best,

Christopher

[thewireguys 3]

Yea that works fine for home use with computer savvy poeple with one or 2 cameras but I could never sell that to normal coustomers. I will see if I can get my hands on the P3344 if it does what you want will your order one from me if I go thought all of this work?

[Suprfknman 0]

my local avigilon dealer had offered to drop off a demo camera for me to try out for a day or two

Will

[DoorMan 0]

Minimum Lux for B/W is 0

The data sheet on the Arecont website does not specify the minimum lux rating for BW, but there are older data sheets on the web that specify 0.01 lux for BW. However, once again, there is no shutter speed associated with the 0.01 lux rating, so it really doesn't mean that much. There is a huge difference between 0.01 lux at 1/60s and 0.01 lux at 2s.

 

here some info on shutter speed

 

Shutter speeds and lux values by themselves are of little value. To be meaningful, they need to be specified in pairs. Mobotix has taken the lead on this, and specify their lux values with associated shutter speeds. Companies like Axis do not include shutter speed with their lux values, and companies like Arecont don't even list lux value in their latest AV3130 data sheet. 0 lux. Yeah right.

 

Thank you Mobotix!!!!

 

Best,

Christopher

 

Here is the test definition as provided on the AXIS website.... "Shutter speed not to exceed 200ms". This is based on Industry Standard CEA 639, "Consumer Camcorder or Video Camera Low Light Performance."

 

http://www.axis.com/files/tech_notes/Axis_MMI.pdf

 

So the simple question now becomes "Hey Mr Mfg do you test to CEA-639?" All these guys do: Samsung, JVC, Philips, Sony, Hitachi, Canon, Panasonic, and Thomson Consumer Electronics.

[cglaeser 0]

Here is the test definition as provided on the AXIS website.

 

Thanks for posting this link. I talked to Axis last week about their lux testing methodology. They opened a support ticket to provide more information, but I have yet to hear back from them. This is my understanding based on that phone conversation.

 

The Axis testing methodology applies to all newer cameras which are generally identified by starting with an alpha (letter) in the model number. Older cameras may not have been tested with this methodology.

 

In addition, I did some testing myself using a Minolta photographer's light meter and the Axis 223M. Based on my analysis, the 223M is no where close to 0.2 lux at 200 ms (or 0.2 seconds) as described in the test methodology. I think the 223M is much closer to 0.2 lux at 2 seconds, which is the slowest possible shutter speed, and ten times slower than the Axis test methodology. This means at a more respectable 1/50 s shutter speed, the minimum lux rating for the 223M is about 20 lux.

 

Best,

Christopher

[DoorMan 0]

Since you tested it to be ten times worse regarding shutter speed they must be flat-out lying? That wouldn't surprise me too badly. It would surprise me to learn they are testing to a newer method for newer cameras though. Since the CEA-639 specification only recently replaced the older (2003 I believe) specification that was EIA-639.

 

I looked for my copy of the Japanese testing specification but could not find it readily. If you go to some Japanese website you will see that the cameras sold within Japan have a much worse (sometimes 8 times worse) Lux rating. The same camera sold here in the states meanwhile will have a much lower rating.

 

Of course all of this should be moot if the MFG adopts CEA-639 and remains truthful with the results.

 

Funny thing too is that ACTi has recently released the TCM series cameras in which they specify cameras in an identical fashion to the Sony high-end megapixel line. With several key measurables listed. This camera, the TCM-5311, has been extremely good at night for us here. But the best... I dunno...

[cglaeser 0]

Since you tested it to be ten times worse regarding shutter speed they must be flat-out lying?

 

No, I'm not saying they lied, I'm saying the data sheet specifies a lux value that was measured using the slowest possible shutter speed. That is why lux values on data sheets without shutter speeds are useless. The Axis 223M really can get the lux value specified in the data sheet, but you have to use a 2 second shutter speed to achieve that lux value. If other manufacturers are using a 1/5 s shutter speeds and Axis is using a 2 second shutter speed, and none of the manufacturers specify the shutter speeds used to measure the lux values, there is no way to really compare the low light capabilities of the different cameras.

 

It's like saying a car gets 88 miles, without specifying how many gallons were used to measure the 88 miles. If a car gets 88 miles per 2 gallons, that's not really lying, it's just useless information. I'm just saying they must include both the miles AND gallons, as in 88 miles per 2 gallons. Then we can all do the math, and if we prefer to know per gallon, then we can convert it to 44 miles per gallon, or 22 miles per 1/2 gallon, etc.

 

Best,

Christopher

[DoorMan 0]

Yes and with MPG there is temperature, terrain, load and technique all not spoken for to derive emperically the rating. MPG testing just got another overhaul this year.

 

Christopher, you may be too kind to say they are not lying. I'm not so kind in my beliefs. I'm not sure deception doesn't qualify. There are plenty of examples of lying or misrepresenting specs with cameras. They are both the same to me and I was as frustrated as anyone so went on to the quest for standardized test methods information. There is more honesty in Japan I learned which is probably why Japanese cameras are on the top of most guy's quality list. Speaking in general terms of course. It comes at a cost though....

 

Just thought I'd mention that The Axis method I linked has been in place since early 2006 as dated within the pages of it.

 

Good luck on your search for the truth. I know I'll refuse to buy and try every make and model out there to find it as well, especially at MP cam prices....

[hardwired 0]

Allow me to repeat a note I made on another thread.. "There was a key point there in mentioning standards as set forth by the Japanese manufacturers, in that I think you would be hard pressed to get suppliers from other offshore countries to be as truthful, and, without enforcing third party testing, the printed specs would only be worth the paper it is printed on.

 

Nonetheless, I think we may be looking at this question from the wrong end, perhaps we need to be looking at raw imager capability, like scientific / astronomical cameras specify. That seems to be a more reproducible, quantifiable standard than anything supplied for our industry."

 

Anything after the imager is processing voodoo.. Although some manufacturers do that voodoo better than others, by far.

 

Also, the methods set forth by Axis are still more applicable to analog video signals than IP cameras, there need to be better measurement standards for IP cameras. For example, the pixel-to pixel low light nonlinearity / noise of CMOS imagers is not quantifiable by CCTV standards, but is available data for scientific cameras.

 

Since it is not in (most) manufacturer's best interests to report this data accurately (the ones who do, often risk being compared badly by uninformed consumers), is it time that we, as the people who can see and understand the difference, to create some type of reasonably priced testing methodology that we can use to share our experiences accurately with each other?

[DoorMan 0]

Since it is not in (most) manufacturer's best interests to report this data accurately (the ones who do, often risk being compared badly by uninformed consumers), is it time that we, as the people who can see and understand the difference, to create some type of reasonably priced testing methodology that we can use to share our experiences accurately with each other?

 

I agree and along similar lines ....

 

I wish there was a consumer guide or report with a large number of cams tested and their result compared. In a solitary laboratory setting if possible. I see a couple guys here that do just that on their own and for their own consumption in a small shop and such. But nothing could compare to a test lab where variables are fixed and measurement uncertainty is minimised across all makes and models.

 

Then a stamp of approval on the unit with true specs listed.

 

If I had a nickel for every wish......

[cglaeser 0]

I talked to Axis last week about their lux testing methodology. They opened a support ticket to provide more information, but I have yet to hear back from them.

 

Axis tech support responded to my question regarding low light testing methodology for the P3343/3344. The shutter speed used to test the minimum lux rating was 1/6 seconds.

 

Best,

Christopher

[Soundy 1]

Shutter speeds and lux values by themselves are of little value. To be meaningful, they need to be specified in pairs. Mobotix has taken the lead on this, and specify their lux values with associated shutter speeds. Companies like Axis do not include shutter speed with their lux values, and companies like Arecont don't even list lux value in their latest AV3130 data sheet. 0 lux. Yeah right.

 

Here is the test definition as provided on the AXIS website.... "Shutter speed not to exceed 200ms". This is based on Industry Standard CEA 639, "Consumer Camcorder or Video Camera Low Light Performance."

 

http://www.axis.com/files/tech_notes/Axis_MMI.pdf

 

So the simple question now becomes "Hey Mr Mfg do you test to CEA-639?" All these guys do: Samsung, JVC, Philips, Sony, Hitachi, Canon, Panasonic, and Thomson Consumer Electronics.

 

That's not really the same thing though - all that spec states is that the shutter won't go any slower then 1/5s(!!). That's of no use when you're looking to find out what shutter speed is actually used at a given lux level.

[cglaeser 0]

That's not really the same thing though - all that spec states is that the shutter won't go any slower then 1/5s(!!).

 

I think you misunderstood my post. Axis data sheets specify a minimum lux level for each camera. However, as has been discussed many times in this forum, Axis is among the many vendors that do not specify the shutter speed used to measure the minimum lux value. So, I contacted Axis tech support and asked them what was the shutter speed used to measure the lux value for several cameras. They only provided information for the P3343 and 3344.

 

According to the Axis 3344 data sheet, the minimum illumination is AXIS P3344/-V/-VE 6mm: Color: 0.3 lux, F1.4, B/W: 0.05 lux, F1.4. According to Axis tech support, this minimum illumination requires a shutter speed of 1/6 seconds.

 

Mobotix and Panasonic are among the few manufacturers that include the shutter speed with the minimum illumination in the data sheet. Now that Axis has provided the shutter speed for two models, it is slightly easier to compare the minimum illumination with other vendors.

 

FWIW, my testing indicates the shutter speed used for the Axis 223M was 2 seconds. Very, very slow. Perfect for studying cloud patterns at remote mountain tops. Not so good for identifying the guy who stole your stereo.

 

Best,

Christopher

[Soundy 1]

That's not really the same thing though - all that spec states is that the shutter won't go any slower then 1/5s(!!).

 

I think you misunderstood my post.

 

No, I was responding to DoorMan's. I agree with your post