Ready to Pull My Hair Out...Can't Get Good Day and Night Res

[boatboy63 0]

Hi everyone. My first post and am aggravated. I put in a 4 channel security system back in April but have never been totally happy with results. I have a 12 acre farm and have had equipment stolen in the past and put this system in to cut my losses. I am only trying to cover the inside of my barn, a shed with equipment, and my house.

 

I have tried IR cameras, but have not been happy because:

1. Bugs are attracted to the IR and trip false motion

2. Light fog seems to cause the IR to look like a severe smoke screen and can't be seen thru

3. The slightest rain/dust causes a similar effect and trips motion

4. The IR led's are visible and can be seen at night which identifies my camera location.

I have read about IR in the 900nm range that does not produce a red glow at the led's and don't understand why these are not used so cameras can't be detected.

 

Because of the problems above, I decided to go with low light bullet cameras (Ex-view). I currently have a B/W 600tvl .003 lux in the barn but had to add a small security light so it had enough light to function. I have 2 540tvl .05 lux D/N color cameras covering a shed/upper area of property and drive/back door. My previous cameras were B/W and when adjusted for night, were too bright in the day and the image could not be made out. When I adjusted for day, it would not show a good image at night. They were purchased from SuperCircuits and I called them to explain my problem. They said I needed 2 true D/N cameras and suggested the ones I currently have. The video is somewhat grainy at night and I have added security lights just to try and give enough light to make them work without having to readjust at dusk and dawn. The wife says that with all the security lights around here (6), it looks like a landing strip from outer space.

 

I am getting a 16 camera dvr so I can get more cameras/coverage and need advice on what will work better than my current setup. If I could get an IR camera that didn't show as red and attract bugs the way it does, I would go with it. I am just not happy with the results I have had. My cameras need about a 90 degree fov considering the areas I am having to cover. I don't have alot of money to spend on this and am having to do a little as I can. Please help.

[Soundy 1]

I have tried IR cameras, but have not been happy because:

1. Bugs are attracted to the IR and trip false motion

2. Light fog seems to cause the IR to look like a severe smoke screen and can't be seen thru

3. The slightest rain/dust causes a similar effect and trips motion

4. The IR led's are visible and can be seen at night which identifies my camera location.

I have read about IR in the 900nm range that does not produce a red glow at the led's and don't understand why these are not used so cameras can't be detected.

 

IMHO, IR illumination is a "cheap fix" in most cases - it's used to provide a measure of low-light coverage for cameras that really aren't capable of proper low-light performance, where getting that performance is substantially more expensive. It's like the old workaround we had in car audio, guys slapping in overblown EQs in an effort to compensate for a poorly-designed system of cheap components, rather than just spending the money to design and build a proper system in the first place.

 

Since I've generally avoided IR, I can't speak authoritatively for the 900nm models, but I suspect the reason you don't see them used more is because they're not as effective, and they're more costly - if you're going to spend that money, most times you're better off simply buying a better camera.

 

Because of the problems above, I decided to go with low light bullet cameras (Ex-view). I currently have a B/W 600tvl .003 lux in the barn but had to add a small security light so it had enough light to function. I have 2 540tvl .05 lux D/N color cameras covering a shed/upper area of property and drive/back door. My previous cameras were B/W and when adjusted for night, were too bright in the day and the image could not be made out. When I adjusted for day, it would not show a good image at night. They were purchased from SuperCircuits and I called them to explain my problem. They said I needed 2 true D/N cameras and suggested the ones I currently have.

 

If these are bullet cams, chances are they don't have auto-iris lenses, which is what you really need to address your exposure issues. A camera's sensor and electronics can only handle so much dynamic range; beyond that, you need to physically control the amount of light entering the camera, which means auto-iris.

 

The video is somewhat grainy at night and I have added security lights just to try and give enough light to make them work without having to readjust at dusk and dawn. The wife says that with all the security lights around here (6), it looks like a landing strip from outer space.

 

The benefit with security lights is that they themselves help provide a deterrent - if someone is creeping around the property and a motion-triggered 500W floodlight snaps on, it's as often as not going to startle them into simply leaving. Place the lights near the cameras and they won't be able to see the cameras without being blinded, and if they do look straight up at the light - as a startled person is likely to do - you'll get a nice clear, well-let shot of their face.

 

I am getting a 16 camera dvr so I can get more cameras/coverage and need advice on what will work better than my current setup. If I could get an IR camera that didn't show as red and attract bugs the way it does, I would go with it. I am just not happy with the results I have had. My cameras need about a 90 degree fov considering the areas I am having to cover. I don't have alot of money to spend on this and am having to do a little as I can. Please help.

 

Unfortunately, the only real solutions to your problems - good quality low-light cameras without IR workarounds - require money. Not necessarily a LOT of it, but it's not something you can cheap out on. You might do better to start off with a lesser DVR and put your money into better cameras; the DVR can always be replaced with something better down the road when or if it becomes necessary.

[boatboy63 0]

Thanks. The SuperCircuits rep pretty much assured me that the D/N cameras he suggested would take care of the problem. I spent $189.99 x 2 for 2 cameras and still feel as if I am missing out on something. It looks like for that price, there should be a good camera out there that could do both day and night equally and still provide enough resolution to get a good visual, should the person come back.

 

I live out in the country and 10 years ago, you could walk out of your house for a week and leave the doors unlocked for a week and not worry about anyone messing around. Since then, times have changed and drugs have taken over. I had a welder stolen from a cookout area that was 15' from my back door. The people around here would rather steal instead of working to supply their habit. There are very few jobs and dealing and stealing is easier to them than working.

[kensplace 0]

You can get IR illuminators that you can place away from the camera.

 

The bugs will get attracted to the illuminator, but its no longer part of the camera, so not a problem.

 

You can get them visisble and invisible, but as they dont have to be placed next to the camera, the fact they are visible is not so important.

 

Only problem is they tend to be pricey.

[Soundy 1]

Thanks. The SuperCircuits rep pretty much assured me that the D/N cameras he suggested would take care of the problem. I spent $189.99 x 2 for 2 cameras and still feel as if I am missing out on something. It looks like for that price, there should be a good camera out there that could do both day and night equally and still provide enough resolution to get a good visual, should the person come back.

 

Again, the important thing to look for is an auto-iris lens. In the case of a bullet camera, look for what appears to be a small motor attached to the side of the lens... similar to the picture below (in fact, the innards of most bullet or "lipstick" cameras are usually a simple baord camera similar to this):

 

 

With "box" cameras there will usually be a wire coming out of the lens that you plug into the camera.

 

With this type of system, as the scene gets brighter, the iris in the lens closes down, physically reducing the light opening to lower the light level. When it gets dark, the iris opens up again to allow more light.

[cglaeser 0]

Even cameras that are sensitive to IR begin to fall off from 850 nm to 950 nm. If the camera is half as sensitive at 950 nm compared to 850 nm, then you would need twice the output. Because cameras have less sensitivity at 950 nm, that wavelength is much less popular unless the IR source must be covert.

 

I use a Raymax 50 Fusion mounted less than a meter from the camera. I never have a problem with bugs. Once every few months I may get a glimpse of a bat.

 

I know $189x2 seems like a lot of money because it is a lot of money, but it's hard to ID vandals and burglars at night on a limited budget. When homes and cars are robbed at night, people say, hey, I got robbed last night, so they check the video, and sure enough, they were robbed at precisely 2:13 am. The cameras provide an excellent time stamp, but little else that will help solve the crime.

 

To ID vandals at night, you will need very good low-light cameras.

 

Do you really need to catch the vandals, or is it good enough to keep them away from your barn? Crow IR motion sensors and Crow IR beams placed around the barn that, when triggered, turn night into day, can be done for a fraction of the costs you are proposing.

 

Best,

Christopher

[thewireguys 3]

I must agree with Soundy and cglaeser. I like to refer to this as the CSI effect. Your budget will get your situational awareness but no detail unless you install many cameras. The budget range to do what you want is going to be between 500-$1000 per camera with with motion lights.

[Tailbone215 0]

To ID vandals at night, you will need very good low-light cameras.

 

Do you really need to catch the vandals, or is it good enough to keep them away from your barn? Crow IR motion sensors and Crow IR beams placed around the barn that, when triggered, turn night into day, can be done for a fraction of the costs you are proposing.

 

 

Totally agree! Low cost cams show their shortcomings when the light starts falling off. Been down that unhappy road. I've had good luck with Bosch VDN-495 cams. They really work well at night without very much light. Of course one can add an external IR illuminator should it be needed sine they have the mechanical cut filter.

 

I like the idea of motion lights to really light things up.

[ak357 0]

I use a Raymax 50 Fusion mounted less than a meter from the camera. I never have a problem with bugs. Once every few months I may get a glimpse of a bat.

Can u share your night pix please ?

Thx

[boatboy63 0]

Can someone recommend the best "bang for the buck" low light cameras? I have had several motion sensor lights in the past, but it seems that they always seem to start coming on for no reason at all. I have spent many hours in the past adjusting these so they will not pick up the road but will pick up someone walking up my driveway.

 

Another problem with my property is the way it is laid out. It is like no matter what you do or where you try to put a camera, there are many obstacles to overcome. There are several trees, hedge, cookout area, and other buildings that tend to block out anything from more than 20'. That is why I put my cameras in areas to guard the most expensive items/areas. I have 3 dogs outside that are chained up, but sometimes you lose your faith in them when other dogs come on the property and they start barking at them. After a while, you become jaded to even hearing their bark.

[cglaeser 0]

I have had several motion sensor lights in the past, but it seems that they always seem to start coming on for no reason at all. I have spent many hours in the past adjusting these so they will not pick up the road but will pick up someone walking up my driveway.

 

You need good motion sensors, not inexpensive motion/light combos. Crows are considered by most security installers to be top of the line. In addition, Crow makes IR beam sensors, and the high power versions have a very long reach. You could easily create perimeters with Crow IR beams that would turn on lights and/or alert you anytime someone tries to enter or has entered your barn.

 

Even if I spent $15,000 on the perfect low light security camera system, I would still include motion sensors and IR beams to protect my barn with an early warning system. Not only that, I would start with the motion early warning system, and then add cameras later. You can install a low cost wireless security system in the house that alerts you at night whenever someone is walking around your barn.

 

Best,

Christopher

[cglaeser 0]

Can u share your night pix please ?

 

I tried to upload an image from my computer, but the CCTV forum failed to upload the image. Is there a size limit?

 

Best,

Christopher

[thewireguys 3]

Can u share your night pix please ?

 

I tried to upload an image from my computer, but the CCTV forum failed to upload the image. Is there a size limit?

 

Best,

Christopher

 

use www.imageshack.com

[rory 0]

Can someone recommend the best "bang for the buck" low light cameras? I have had several motion sensor lights in the past, but it seems that they always seem to start coming on for no reason at all. I have spent many hours in the past adjusting these so they will not pick up the road but will pick up someone walking up my driveway.

 

Another problem with my property is the way it is laid out. It is like no matter what you do or where you try to put a camera, there are many obstacles to overcome. There are several trees, hedge, cookout area, and other buildings that tend to block out anything from more than 20'. That is why I put my cameras in areas to guard the most expensive items/areas. I have 3 dogs outside that are chained up, but sometimes you lose your faith in them when other dogs come on the property and they start barking at them. After a while, you become jaded to even hearing their bark.

 

Do a search for Extreme CCTV. More expensive then the rest but pretty much guaranteed to work. Also check out CNB Cameras (http://www.cnbusa.com), they are a manufacturer from S Korea that is sold on most US based online stores now. They have a couple cameras that mimick the Extreme CCTV EX82 dual cameras (1xcolor and 1xBW camera in one housing with IR in a seperate part of the camera).

 

Or do a search for a Day Night Exview BOX camera (eg. GE has one) that works up to 1100nm (or at least 950nm) then put that in a housing and install some Extreme CCTV UF500 (or similar) 930+nm IR Lighting, mounted separately from the camera.

 

Or just install a bunch of Optex IR Beams and hook them up to lights, and disregard the IR.

[boatboy63 0]

Thanks Rory. I did buy a CNB box camera (cheap) and am extremely happy. It is 550 tvl and got it for less than $100. It beats my $189 SC color bullets hands down. So far, it is at least 3 times brighter at night with the same lighting. The detail after dark is much better.

 

I do have another question and need help in understanding. The CNB box came with an 8mm lens and said f1.3. Can you explain to me what the difference is in an f1.2 and f1.3? The 8mm lens is not going to work in my situation, as I am used to having about an 80 degree fov with my others. I am looking at somewhere around a 2.8mm lens to accomodate my needs, but don't know whether to look for a 1.2 or 1.3. I had even considered an auto iris, but from what I have seen so far, I am happy with the fixed iris, as the software in the camera automatically adjusts to compensate. I didn't get it going until nearly dark, but lighting levels seemed to stabilize very well from day to night.

 

Thanks again.

[rory 0]

lower the f stop the more it can compensate for low light levels, so if you want to see in lower light, and the camera is capable of it, then go at least f 1.2 or as I have done with exview in the past f 0.95. Camera should have the specs and show which f stop they are rated at. Eg. 0.1 Lux @ f1.2. Doesnt mean thats the lowest it can go, go with a F0.95 lens and it may be even better. Typically you should be fine with a standard F 1.2 lens. If you get varifocal get a day night, just so less worries bout focus shifts, or a fixed lens but then that cant be adjusted. You can easily find something like a Day Night 2.5-10mm AI Varifocal lens with f 1.2, like Fujinon. Longer zoom varifocals normally have higher f stops and the low light sensitivity decreases. Whichever lens you get, still focus it under low light, not full light or pitch dark, just lower lighting, for best image quality.

[Soundy 1]

f-stops are more commonly a photographic term - in short, it's a ratio of a lens's focal length to the diameter of its opening (or the opening of the iris). The term is properly written "f/number"... or mathematically, the diameter of the opening is the focal length "f" divided by the given number. Thus, a lens that's f/1 will have an opening twice the diameter of one that's f/2... and will allow four times as much light. The lower the f-stop number then, the more maximum amount of light the lens can pass, and the better it will work for low-light uses.

 

There are trade-offs to everything, of course, and the wider the opening, the shallower the depth of focus (the distance from front to back in which objects will be in focus).

[boatboy63 0]

Thanks guys. The camera that I bought is a CNB G1815N. It is a D/N camera but doesn't have infrared led's mounted in the camera. I ended up getting it for around $60 shipped and it's new and had an 8mm lens. After testing it further today, I ended up buying 5 more from ebay for $55 each.

 

I have to say, this was what I was looking for in terms of picture quality. After testing it today, I found it will automatically adjust lighting levels and it is about perfect for my needs. When I got it hooked up last night, my jaw about dropped when I first saw the quality after dark. All images were much brighter than with my expensive SC cams and better quality. When I looked at it today in the brightness of the sun, I was just as impressed as the picture didn't looked washed out or too bright. Guess I will put my 5 month old SC color bullets on ebay and recoup some of my expense.

 

I guess my biggest drawback now is having to buy camera boxes and lenses for them as the supplied 8mm lens isn't wide enough for my needs.

[rory 0]

Looks like thats a discontinued model as its not on CNB's website, or they just dont have it listed. I found it on a dealer site though, thats a color only though, the Day Night model is the NF, though this might be the digital day night model, perhaps wont pick up IR, depends if it has a fixed cut filter, if not IR cut then color could be washed out. Digital day night is just a cheap way to fake it as a day night, not as good as a True Day Night which costs more.

 

Specs I found arent really useful, the lux levels are misleading, but it does say DSS and SDNR. Im not a fan of DSS myself but some people like it for a cheaper method to see more in low light with SuperHad chips - you get slower video though. It does have BLC & AGC on or off switches. Also it doesnt come with a lens (typically) as its a box camera, you need to provide them separately.

 

So essentially its one of CNB's budget box cameras, though the price itself is not that budget (the price you got it for is not even dealer price, maybe second hand). the NF True Day Night model is only about $10 more at my distributor's site. Cheaper then the brand names though like Bosch etc. But yes should be better then the average color bullet. Glad you like it thats what is most important.

[boatboy63 0]

Thanks again rory...I think I too am somewhat confused over what I read about it's D/N IR ability. One site will mention it and another not. All I can say is that with the light I currently have, this model dramatically improves the signal. I didn't really even want to use IR because of the number of bugs and spiders it attracts, not to mention the glow from fog. I did notice the night video is not really as fluid as my other cameras, but still very usable. As for price, about the cheapest I saw from a dealer was around $115 for the same model. If this will last a couple of years, I will be happy. Any suggestions for a cheap source for a 2.8 -5/10 vf lens? From what I am seeing, they cost nearly as much as the camera. Thanks again.

[rory 0]

Err. Cant say dealer prices here, it retails for over $200 though. As for lenses, look for the fujinon lens, the dealer sites I buy from dont sell dealer prices to end users though.

[thewireguys 3]

ebay

 

Please buy from a dealer or integrator like one of the guys that has helped you out on the forum. Ebay and internet sales are going to put us out of business and then we will not be able to give you free advice.

[dopalgangr 1]

Boatboy, when you get a chance post some pics of day and night. I would like to see how they look

[boatboy63 0]

I don't have a problem buying from the members on here, but there needs to be a place on the forum or some way of knowing who actually sells. I am a newbie to all this and am just trying to learn as I go and not spend anymore money than I have to, as it is hard to come by at the moment.

 

After mentioning the cameras that I bought, I was wondering if the f0.95 would work with it. Is this something that if it allows too much light, it could be adjusted out by either using an auto iris or by adjusting the camera brightness thru my dvr on my camera settings? Also, if the camera isn't a true D/N as was mentioned, will a D/N lens make it one, or is that all done in the camera?

 

I was looking at a 2.8-8mm f1:0.95 varifocal Fujinon lens. Don't know if I really need auto iris or just manual or even D/N, but would like to get any of you to give me a price on it. I will probably get at least 3 and they would be shipped to zip 37870. I would just like to get them by the end of the week Can pay by credit card or paypal. If anyone can give me a price on this, please pm me. I am just trying to fnd the best bargain I can.

 

Thanks

[rory 0]

No the DN lens doesnt make it a day night camera. The lens just helps with focus shift between day and night, as any camera would have with a varifocal lens, fixed lens no problem. Before day night lenses, we would have to focus for 10%+- focus shift, even if using aspherical lens which would normally be better.

 

You would be able to adjust the Iris level on the camera.