Suggestion: Users Only Topic

[kaysadeya 0]

This thread has taken on a defensive tone. Many of you have commented on how you "won't sell to DYIers because you don't want to answer their stupid questions..." Think about where the PC industry would be with that attitude. No doubt the same thing was said inside the board rooms of HP and IBM (oh, and Burroughs, DEC, Control Data, etc.) back in the 70's.

[bryan1656 0]

maybe some dealers should set up 900 numbers and charge for the always friendly and helpful tech support like the computer companies do, then? Call up and pay $.95 minute to talk to a guy in India named "Brad" with a modern equivalent of a three-ring-binder in front of him?

 

kaysadeya, your idea already exists. There are plenty of retailers out there offering "package" systems sesigned for general purposes to be used by DIYers. They will "upgrade" components on request. They offer "customer service" about like the computer companies do, hit or miss.

 

AS for the folks here saying they don't want to deal with DIYers... maybe in thier personal business with phone calls and such, but they are also logging on here and helping folks... just in their own time and according to what they feel like doing.

 

It is a *little* ironic to me that you don't seem to appreciate the fact that some dealers/pros don't want to deal with the CCTV equivalent of a "luser", but this is at the same time that you were inquiring about a forum where dealers/pros were specifically prohibited from participating.

 

Personally, I support DIY to a great extent.. but I also know that there are some times when people would save money and time with pro - and many CCTV systems are there for very serious reasons and it is very important that they work properly. Most folks aren't in a position to recognize what "properly" is. They think low res color is better than high res B/W becuase the color looks more like TV. :rolleyes:

 

If they want more than just some basic help on a few questions for a "low priority" type application, maybe they can put me on a small retainer. That way I get compensated to help them, and I can get contractual first dibs on any work that needs to be done if they decide to bring someone in to get things running after they had a go at it.

 

For other more serious applications, if I am to truly be of service to them and offer valuable and accurate advice, then my best advice would often be for them to hire a professional, even if it isn't me.

 

My two cents.

[rory 0]

thats a good idea .. a 900 number to the Bahamas

 

Except, it costs more to live and operate down here ..

 

Personally, ill anwer questions that arent local, but locally, it would just be taking money out of my pocket. I will sell to DIYers locally but they are on their own. Id give them product support, but no installation tips - otherwise they will start doing it themselves.

[Thomas 0]

There are some vaild reasons for not selling to DIY's from a dealer perspective. DIY's do need a higher level of tech support then experanced dealers. It's not an absolute rule, I've worked with very bright DIYers and very inexperanced dealers. But it is a good general rule. And the companies you cited all died for other reasons then DIYers. DEC and Burroughs fell behind the curve. IBM is out because desktops don't fit their current service contract model. Thier PC division was profitable, just a distraction they felt. HP still sells alot of desktops. And there are other companies out there making a fortune off of the non-DIY market. Dell. I can build my own PC. I can teach anyone here the basics of putting one together in a few hours. But it takes alot of time to get someone to the point of a cluster, or water cooling. The same goes with tricky installs.

[kaysadeya 0]

Any other DIYers care to weigh in?

 

No?!

 

Wimps!

[qman 0]

No way man, I sell to everybody.

 

If you are going to be in this or any other business, your support will tell how succesful you are going to be. So what if a DYI wants to call me and ask me a few questions about a product that they bought from me? that they are having problems and don't know what to do?

 

I only make sure that I'm speaking to a person who I sold something to, and I only give him (her) support for that particular product. That they want advice on what to get for a particular application? sure I'll give them advice, don't cost me anymore than a few minutes or my time.

[DataAve 0]

Edited

Edited April 11, 2005 by Guest

[Thomas 0]

Any other DIYers care to weigh in?

 

No?!

 

Wimps!

 

Keep in mind that you are the exception to the rule, rather then the rule.

[kaysadeya 0]

Keep in mind that you are the exception to the rule, rather then the rule.

 

I'll take that as a compliment (or at least a nod). Thanks.

 

I'd like to again state that I have a lot of respect for those of you who have learned your craft well and for generously sharing your knowledge with the rest of us on this forum. Many of the members here (Rory and Cooperman, to name a few) treat both dealers and DIYers with equal respect. As with any successful web forum, the objective is to share information, not to withhold it for only the select few who know the secret handshake.

 

What ticks me off is the contempt some of you exhibit for your customers and end users in general. Just because someone is uneducated on the details of CCTV doesn't make them a "luser." How about a "user in need of a better education"? Sure, installing CCTV stuff is both an art and a science and users have a lot to learn. However, consider that, just as us DIYers learn from the professionals here, maybe some of you professionals could also learn from some of us DIYers. For example, a little humility and how to better deal with your clients.

 

The fuel that feeds a good web forum is mutual respect. This forum has a lot of potential, but flipping off non-dealers is counterproductive.

 

By the way, bryan1656, the point of this poll was to start a dialog on the exclusive nature of the Dealer's Only topic. I was never serious about a User's Only topic.

[Integratek 0]

sharing info is all that inet is about

but here we are talking business

and business have it's secrets

besides that, i do think that "user need no education, exept for requred minimum to be able to operate"

u are not asking your dental surgeon why is he doing this or that, and how much have he paid for the compound or whatever

even if you'd ask, he wont tell you

 

as for flipping off non-dealers

how many of those can really help with anything if almost all of them generally have no idea about the matter ?

IMO things are just prefect the way they are

users can ask questinos and get answers they would never get for free

dealers/installers helping users

and it's only fair that they have some private place where they can discuss prices, margins, marketing tactics and some other themes which i found unappropriate to discuss with end-user

[DataAve 0]

Why not just have a selected “member onlyâ€

[Integratek 0]

have you seen a lot of business discussions going on at public open places ?

 

if you ask me, the forum should be for dealers/installers ONLY

and users should pay us $$$ for our knowlege

why ? because every single one of us have spent a LOT of precious time studying subjects most people have no slightest idea about

and we are making our living out of it

[DataAve 0]

I dissagree. Remember when you first started out? It is nice when someone gives you a helping hand. People helped me out, in turn, I will help someone else out. But then again, I wasn't much for the "good ole boys" club. Also, it is good business.

[bryan1656 0]

quote: "By the way, bryan1656, the point of this poll was to start a dialog on the exclusive nature of the Dealer's Only topic. I was never serious about a User's Only topic."

 

So it is doubly ironic that I didn't catch the irony and instead tried to, like..point it out!? DOH! LMAO Okay, I'm a dumb***!

 

I like helping DIYers and end users here on the forum when I can.

 

I also enjoy, and appreciate, the help that I've received from other dealers/installers.

 

I enjoy and encourage the free exchange of info.

 

However, I also see the reasonable need to keep certain business related information private.

 

My two cents.

[Integratek 0]

do not demagogue

we are talking about end-users here, not beginning installers/dealers

 

when i stated out i was sitting days and nights and reading everything i could laid my hands on

 

basically, that's the difference between pro and amateur

pro is doing what he's doing for living and have to know everything about it

amateur is doing the same just for fun, not spendig all his time to gain knowledge and can't allow himself to coz he got to earn his wages somehow

 

helping out and being helped is great, but every craft has it's secrets which should not be opened to a curious public

[baywatch 1]

No problem with helping people out, do it all day on the phone.

The problem I get is when customers want you to sell them equipment at trade prices but hold their hand right thru the install & beyond.

I have sold to people in the past & told them "this is trade, no help" because of the low prices, they are always back with problems.

They expect us to supply the professional stuff at e-bay prices but give the back up.

Try & get PC backup if you buy a computer from a big supermarket.

[Thomas 0]

The existance of dealer only section isn't a slap in the face. It allows for disscussion of bulk pricing. I don't want dealer pricing where non-dealers can see it, at least not for my products.

 

It's not a matter of arrogence but frankly, DIY's do cost more in Tech support per sale then dealers. It's not attidue, it's not prejudice, it's hard fact. Dealers have some options of recouping it, but it's also their luxury to not deal with DIY's.

 

Some degree of contempt is going to happen with any speciality. Look at Doctors, IT people, etc.

[Cooperman 0]

Blimey!! ... and I used to think soldering BNC connectors was fun; look what I've been missing.

 

Let's get a sense of proportion here.

 

Dealers / installers have to make a living so it's not unreasonable for discussions concerning trade pricing to be held in a restricted forum.

 

Having spent many years providing trade supply and tech support for installers mostly in the '80's, and having dealt with far more DiYers than I can ever remember, the only difference I could ever see, was one was trying to make money, whilst the other was trying to save money.

 

For what it's worth, the knowledge and skills level was generally not that disimilar, with many inexperienced installers requiring a far greater level of technical support, simply because they were often over confident about their abilities. On the other hand, many DiYers were extremely enthusiastic to learn, because they wanted the job done right (and they found the whole subject of CCTV .... interesting).

 

The whole point about experience and knowledge is that it's there to be shared, hence the benefit of an open forum like this. When I started out in the '70's, there was probably no more than a few dozen CCTV companies here in the U.K., and we made a point of exchanging information and advice to develop and promote a 'professional' approach.

 

If more DiYers and end users had a greater level of knowledge, they wouldn't be ripped off by unscrupulous installers (yes they do exist ).

 

In my opinion, the day we think we know it all, and are far too "professional" to pass on trade secrets (advice) and 'tricks of the trade' (practical experience) is the day I'll pack it in.

 

... and thank's for the comment kaysadeya; so should it be that all are equal in a public forum, and long may it continue.

 

And BTW, thanks to all the guys on this forum who provide practical advice and assistance without question, particularly Rory, Thomas, CCTV Australia, Herm., and all the rest of you ... you know who you are!

 

Rant over, I'm off for a cup of tea (very english )

[kaysadeya 0]

Thanks Cooperman.

 

One other thought about the "support" topic. It may be worth the effort for many of you professionals to pressure manufacturers for better documentation on their products. For example, what at first looked like a very good user guide for my DVR turned out to be a real disappointment after trying to actually understand how to configure the thing and make use of its many features. Rory and I spent a whole weekend trying to figure out how to get my PC client to connect to the DVR over the network. But there was one detail that was missing from the equation that was not at all clear from the error messages and documentation. In the end, I was forced to make a support call to my supplier. All of this time and effort on everyone’s part could have been saved if they had written a more complete user guide for the DVR.

 

My "day job" is writing technical documentation and I learned a looong time ago that you have to first understand the technology before you can communicate its use to others. The user guide for my DVR was obviously written by a “professional writerâ€

[Cooperman 0]

originally posted by Kaysadeya:

 

It may be worth the effort for many of you professionals to pressure manufacturers for better documentation on their products.

 

My "day job" is writing technical documentation and I learned a looong time ago that you have to first understand the technology before you can communicate its use to others.

 

Hey Kay, we'd probably need to be equipped with magic wands to make any serious inroads with the majority of manufacturers.

 

Not that many years ago, all the most entertaining manuals were written in Jenglish (japanese english), but know of course, a significant proportion of products are Taiwean, so the 'copy' is ever so slightly different.

 

I've spent countless hours discussing with manufacturers both product design features and technical documentation, and the general response is lots of smiling, nodding, buckets of goodwill, but little if any tangible results.

 

To be fair, if I spoke any of the far eastern languages a fraction as well as the highly knowledgable guys I meet who speak english, I'd be a seriously happy chappy. So I suppose it's easy to understand that whether grammatically correct (or technically accurate for that matter), the 'representatives' are genuinly proud of their colleagues linguistic achievements.

 

I couldn't agree more about the absolute necessity to understand the inner workings of a product, to stand any chance at all of producing relevant and concise documentation.

 

Maybe we should start another thread to see which manufacturers products are consistantly let down by the quality of the accompanying literature. Maybe that way the manufacturers could be ever so gently persuaded to take note.

 

Oh and perhaps also a pat on the back for those that excel in this department.

 

Any thoughts...?

[kaysadeya 0]

Creating a Hall of Fame/Shame for CCTV documents is a good idea (better than a User’s Only topic, I guess).

 

I can see from the Kodicom DVR user guide that the company was really serious about trying to produce a good document. The presentation is really very professional. But, as you say, I suspect the task of transporting the knowledge from the Korean-speaking engineers to the English-speaking writer was too much of a challenge. But what’s worse is that the English-speaking writer obviously had no clue about the DVR or much of an interest in exploring it enough to learn how to ask the right questions and effectively communicate its operation to his or her reader. My guess is that the writer was a highly paid contractor who did a one-off job in a very limited timeframe and then moved on. This is a classic mistake a lot of companies make. Most pointy-haired managers think that any ex-high school teacher can drop in for a few weeks and produce a good technical document. Think of all the customer and support man-hours that are wasted because of bad documentation. One little detail can cost countless people days of needless frustration and lost productivity.

 

Good documentation is proactive support and it is much cheaper than reactive support.